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Islam for non-Muslims
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seekshidayath
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Quote seekshidayath Replybullet Posted: 18 May 2008 at 6:08pm

Chapter 5 verse 38 says , " And (as for) the male thief and the female thief, cut off their hands as a recompense for that which both committed, a punishment by way of example from Allah. And Allah is All-Powerful, All-Wise"

39.  "But whosoever repents after his crime and does righteous good deeds, then verily, Allah will pardon him. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."

This is the verse Ronn. Even if  it were only hadiths, we would try our best to implement it for it is from a chosen Prophet. And if the person deserves this punishment in an Islamic state, i would not hesitate to chop him. Even if i were the thief, i would present myselves to cut my wrists. But  fear of punishment stops me to steal. Fear of God, does stop me too.

Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: “All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."
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Ron Webb
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 18 May 2008 at 7:52pm

Originally posted by seekshidayath

Chapter 5 verse 38 says , " And (as for) the male thief and the female thief, cut off their hands as a recompense for that which both committed, a punishment by way of example from Allah. And Allah is All-Powerful, All-Wise"

39.  "But whosoever repents after his crime and does righteous good deeds, then verily, Allah will pardon him. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."

This is the verse Ronn.


This verse says nothing about the value of the goods stolen, let alone a limit of three/ten dirhams.

It does raise a few questions though:
1. Who wouldn't say they repent, faced with such a horrific punishment?
2. Who would believe such repentance is sincere?
3. How is the culprit supposed to "do righteous deeds" while in police custody?

And if the person deserves this punishment in an Islamic state, i would not hesitate to chop him.

Over the price of a coffee?  This is your concept of a "merciful" God?

Even if i were the thief, i would present myselves to cut my wrists.

I believe that meets the clinical definition of insanity.

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Shasta'sAunt
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Quote Shasta'sAunt Replybullet Posted: 19 May 2008 at 6:26am

Exodus 21: 

 
6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.

16 And he that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death.

 17 And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.

 
 
Mark 7
 
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
 
 
 
Deuteronomy

 20 But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel:

 21 Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you

23 If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her;

 24 Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.

Deuteronomy 21
 
18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:

 19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;

 20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.

 21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

Numbers 11
 
1 And when the people complained, it displeased the LORD: and the LORD heard it; and his anger was kindled; and the fire of the LORD burnt among them, and consumed them that were in the uttermost parts of the camp.
 
Ezekiel 23
 
25 And I will set my jealousy against thee, and they shall deal furiously with thee: they shall take away thy nose and thine ears; and thy remnant shall fall by the sword: they shall take thy sons and thy daughters; and thy residue shall be devoured by the fire.
 
Leviticus 20
 
18 And if a man shall lie with a woman having her sickness, and shall uncover her nakedness; he hath discovered her fountain, and she hath uncovered the fountain of her blood: and both of them shall be cut off from among their people.
 
Leviticus 21
 
9 And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire.
 
“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt
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Ron Webb
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 19 May 2008 at 12:31pm
I'm not sure what your point is, Shasta'sAunt.  Are you trying to show that Islam is just as bad as Judaism?
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 19 May 2008 at 4:48pm
Ron, I guess the point is the same what Jesus is quoted to have said in my post before.
In Islam we believe that on the day of Judgement you will not have control over you hands, tongue and eye in the sense that they will be witness against yourself if you denied what they did. That's what Jesus is saying that, if your had commits a sin, becuse of its sin (if you did not pay for it here) you in full body be lead toword hell for punishment. So he says, cut it off from your body if you have stolen or done something wrong with it acording to what is taught in that book if you don't want to be thrown complete inthe hell fire.
What is your reading of that verse?
Hasan


Edited by honeto - 19 May 2008 at 4:50pm
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Shasta'sAunt
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Quote Shasta'sAunt Replybullet Posted: 19 May 2008 at 5:57pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb

I'm not sure what your point is, Shasta'sAunt.  Are you trying to show that Islam is just as bad as Judaism?
 
"This is not about punishments from God.  It's about punishments from men -- and more specifically about the mindset of men who can believe that God would command such atrocities."
 
This is about punishment from God. God commanded that certain acts should be punished in certain ways. Not just in Islam and Judaism, but in Christianity also. Why always leave Christianity out? Jesus did not say that man was not to be punished for wrong doing, in fact the opposite:
 
Romans 13

 1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

 2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

 4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

 5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

And in Acts Ananias and Sapphira were put to death by the hand of God for lying.
“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
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Ron Webb
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 19 May 2008 at 7:38pm

Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt

This is about punishment from God.

Not the way I see it.  If God wants to cut off somebody's hands for a minor crime, then let God do it.  He doesn't need you or me to do His dirty work.  (And please don't try to tell me there's some valuable moral lesson I need to learn from such butchery.)

Why always leave Christianity out?

Because this discussion is not about Christianity, for one thing.  Because it is no defense of Islam to claim that Christianity is no better, for another.  Because Christ never said anything about cutting off body parts.  Because Romans 13:4 is obviously not to be taken literally (nobody uses swords anymore).

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Ron Webb
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 19 May 2008 at 8:03pm
Originally posted by honeto

What is your reading of that verse?
 
Probably the same as yours -- that one must be willing to give up anything (e.g., friendships, pleasures) that causes you to sin -- but in a strictly allegorical sense, not to be taken literally.  I meant it when I said that cutting off your own hand because you think God told you to (or for any reason, except maybe gangrene) meets the clinical definition of insanity.
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