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Islam for non-Muslims
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Nausheen
 
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Quote Nausheen Replybullet Posted: 14 May 2008 at 11:03pm
Auzubillahi minash shaitan ir Rajeem,
Bismillah ir Rahman ir Rahim
 
 
 
Originally posted by Ron Webb

  Even without any other evidence, the cruelty throughout the Quran is enough to convince me that it did not come from a loving God.
 
 
 
 
 
The problem is not about God being a loving God ... rather the debate here is weather the Loving God is also wise and just or not.
 
For a believer (a muslim) hope and fear are like two sandals he walks on, or like two wings of a bird -  without either of which it cannot fly. We have hope of mercy from Him because He is compassionate and merciful and fear Him because He is just and has a wrath.
 
For those who cannot conceive the two attributes together in one God have a problem of understanding punishments from a god who is so loving and merciful. 
 
God has a wrath believe it or not. Only the very misfortunate are going to generate that wrath towards themselves, because He has a mercy that encompases His wrath.
 
 
 
 


Edited by Nausheen - 14 May 2008 at 11:04pm
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.
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Hayfa
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Quote Hayfa Replybullet Posted: 15 May 2008 at 3:53am
I think it is really someone to put someone in a cage for 15 years for a crime. Confused What is more humane? Been to a prison lately? Not sure any punshiment is "humane" Is a long-term punsihment more humane then a swift one?  How can that be?  
 
I've seen and read too much on crime, I teach self-defense. And you cannot convince me that any punishment is 'humane."
 
People have a right to be free from predators..  There ARE bad people.
When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi
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Quote believer Replybullet Posted: 15 May 2008 at 5:44am

James 2

Faith and Deeds
 14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

 18But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."
      Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.

 19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

 20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[a]? 21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend. 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

 25In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

Tariq- to truly understand the Holy Bible you must read the whole thing.
John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
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Nausheen
 
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Quote Nausheen Replybullet Posted: 15 May 2008 at 6:45pm
Auzubillahi minash shaitan ir Rajeem,
Bismillah ir Rahman ir Rahim
 
 
 
 
 
Originally posted by Hayfa

 
People have a right to be free from predators..  There ARE bad people.
 
What you said reminded me of somehting I heard once from a scholar, he said, Hell fire is a whip Allah uses on his beleiving servants to make them work righteousness in this life. The idea he was explaining is that the fear of having been caste into the fire, if it is a true fear, is good enough for many of the believing men and women to stay away from deeds that may lead them into it. Thus it is not  from Allah's pleasure to caste men in fire, but the fear of His punishment may help many earn their way to paradise.
 
No punishment is humane. At the same time no trangression of His laws suite the purpose for which human beings were created. They want to act "human" and there is no limit to the act of being human, from cheating, stealing, lying ... to the most gorry acts a human being is capable of stooping to. [He created us in the best of moulds, but it is man who stoops to lowest of low - in loose translation from the Quran]
 
But Allah is pure, and accepts nothing but that which is pure, thus He has guided us in the Quran how to purify our souls so we may enter paradise ... where none shall gain entry except the pure.
 
The angels don't have the potential to trangress His laws, but humans, if they choose to do the same through their free will, they rise above the ranks of angels. So one who busies his focus on the nature of punishments prescribed by Allah - meaning a non-muslim who uses these as a plea to misunderstand Islam, may tarry for a while and think, what is better ... good pleasure of the Lord Most High, or resignation to ones "human" desires, after which one may not know if he will receive mercy or wrath...
 
 
 


Edited by Nausheen - 15 May 2008 at 6:48pm
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.
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Ron Webb
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 15 May 2008 at 6:52pm

Originally posted by Nausheen

The problem is not about God being a loving God ... rather the debate here is weather the Loving God is also wise and just or not.

I would say that the debate is whether chopping off body parts is ever wise and just.

For those who cannot conceive the two attributes together in one God have a problem of understanding punishments from a god who is so loving and merciful.

This is not about punishments from God.  It's about punishments from men -- and more specifically about the mindset of men who can believe that God would command such atrocities.

Imagine that your wallet has been stolen, and the thief has been caught.  Don't imagine this in the abstract -- imagine the thief as a real person.  Picture his face contorted with fear, hear the anguish in his quivering voice.  Give him a family, probably including abusive or neglectful parents, a history of poverty and hopelessness, and so on.

The police tie the man to a chair, with his arms securely strapped to the armrests.  Then they hand you an axe.  Answer me honestly: what do you do next?

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Quote seekshidayath Replybullet Posted: 15 May 2008 at 7:34pm
 Ronn , there are certain conditions to be met before chopping of there hands. Its not that all the theives are chopped off.
 
These are the conditions
 
1-  The stolen property should be something of worth, because that which is of no worth has no sanctity, such as musical instruments, wine and pigs.
 
2- The value of the stolen property should be above a certain limit, which is three Islamic dirhams or a quarter of an Islamic dinar, or their equivalent in other currencies.
 
3-  The stolen property should have been taken from a place where it had been put away, i.e., a place where people usually put their property, such as a cupboard, for example.
 
4-  The theft itself has to be proven, either by the testimony of two qualified witnesses or by the confession of the thief twice.
 
5-  The person from whom the property was stolen has to ask for it back; if he does not, then (the thief’s) hand does not have to be cut off. 
 
 You must have read this hadith when read the link posted earlier in my posts. Here shall i repeat the hadith that  a noblewoman stole at the time of the Prophet (pbuh), and Usamah ibn Zayd wanted to intercede for her. The Prophet (pbuh) became angry and said, “Do you intercede concerning one of the hadd punishments set by Allah? Those who came before you were destroyed because if a rich man among them stole, they would let him off, but if a lowly person stole, they would carry out the punishment on him. By Allah, if Fatimah bint Muhammad {his own daughter} were to steal, I would cut off her hand.”
 
And an other important point to be noted is that the hands of a thief when meets the conditions above are cut from wrists, whereas if one indulges in robbery or by extortion does n't gets chopped.
 
 
 
Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: “All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."
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Nausheen
 
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Quote Nausheen Replybullet Posted: 15 May 2008 at 7:46pm
Auzubillahi minash shaitan ir Rajeem,
Bismillah ir Rahman ir Rahim
 
 
 
 
 
Originally posted by Ron Webb

I would say that the debate is whether chopping off body parts is ever wise and just.

This is not about punishments from God.  It's about punishments from men -- and more specifically about the mindset of men who can believe that God would command such atrocities.

Imagine that your wallet has been stolen, and the thief has been caught.  Don't imagine this in the abstract -- imagine the thief as a real person.  Picture his face contorted with fear, hear the anguish in his quivering voice.  Give him a family, probably including abusive or neglectful parents, a history of poverty and hopelessness, and so on.

The police tie the man to a chair, with his arms securely strapped to the armrests.  Then they hand you an axe.  Answer me honestly: what do you do next?

 
If you had read my previous post perhaps you would have understood better.
You are speaking of a society where these crimes are prevalant.
 
But guidelines of Islam dictates a society where these crimes should not occur - merely because the skeleton of  God's laws wears the garb of spirituality.   If one knows his creator, he would know His gifts, blessings bounties and favors, and would not want his God to look away from him for even a moment. He would not dare come near anything that would amount to His displeasure, let alone His anger - this person would understand what anger can a transgression generate if God has warned and set limits of such serious punishments - he would not want to come near that anger. Is our Mr. theif wearing that garb of spirituality?
 
Copping of hands is for stealing, and stonning to death is prescribed for some other crime. Today people have lost sight into the gravity of crimes, that is why we are discussing the nature of punishments - their propensity, and effect on someones life. 
 
People are shortsighted today.   Why would anyone come near a crime so disliked by God that He has set such a serious punishment? - we are not discussing this, rather we are discussing the punishment of God after someone might have crossed His limits.
 
This is perhaps because you have called this  "mind set of a people ... " This is the mind-set of a people who don't doubt the wisdom of God. They accept Him as He revealed Himself. 
 
You would definitely debate the wisdom of chopping hands, because you don't beleive it to be coming from God, and this is the crux. Therefore I had said, God does have a wrath, He being merciful is no logic to deny that.
 
One will question the wisdom of chopping off of hands and stoning to death only if they have a doubt of it being from their Creator, otherwise there is no debate about its wisdom.
 
He is beyond our perception, but His limits and His guidance are sufficient for salvation.  If one were to extrapolate all of this beyond a family, a home, a life of this world, into a life beyond this world, one would rather busy himself engagging in much that would exalt his ranks in the final abode - for that takes one far, very far from any deed a punishment of which has become debatable in our times. Islam dictates a society where people's aims  are set to such high standards, however regretfully that society is becoming more of a far fetched dream ... shadowed in the glitter of the immediate world.
 
 
 
 
 
 


Edited by Nausheen - 15 May 2008 at 7:58pm
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.
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Ron Webb
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 15 May 2008 at 8:34pm
Answer me honestly, Nausheen: what do you do next?
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