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Ron Webb
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 08 June 2008 at 6:13pm

Hi Chrysalis,

That's quite an essay.  I'm not sure I can reply to all of it, but let's see what happens:

1 and 2. I agree that what I described is unlikely, but not impossible.  After all, we already have a disease (AIDS) that seems to target men based on their behaviour, so there's no reason a disease could not disproportionately affect women.  Childbirth is the single most dangerous event in most women's lives, and it wouldn't take much to make it deadly on a regular basis.  But let's leave that aside.  Neither scenario (more women or more men) is especially likely at present, so either way we're talking about a hypothetical situation.

3. If the only purpose of marriage is to propagate society, then I agree, but in my opinion that is a very narrow view of it.  If there were a shortage of women, the surplus men would still want a chance to be part of a family, for a variety of reasons having nothing to do with propagating society.

4. It should be of no importance to know which man fathered the child.  The parents are responsible for raising the children -- and that means all the parents, not just the biological father.

5 and 6. In terms of sexual relations, one woman is more capable of satisfying multiple men than the other way around.  As for men having an innately higher sex drive, I believe that is a cultural presumption, not a physical fact.

7. Sexually transmitted diseases are spread via promiscuity, regardless of gender.  Neither gender is safe if they have sex outside of marriage, and both genders are equally safe if they stay within the marriage.

8. See 5 and 6.  Even allowing for a few days each month when women are not sexually available, a woman is far more capable of satisfying multiple men than vice versa.

9. Again, I think that is a cultural presumption, not a physical fact.  Women may no longer be capable of having children, but they are no more likely than men to lose their interest in sex.



Edited by Ron Webb - 08 June 2008 at 6:18pm
Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
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Israfil
 
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Quote Israfil Replybullet Posted: 08 June 2008 at 7:42pm
Curious when we think of polygamy we think of sex.
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Chrysalis
 
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Quote Chrysalis Replybullet Posted: 09 June 2008 at 4:16am
Originally posted by Ron Webb

13. If the only purpose of marriage is to propagate society, then I agree, but in my opinion that is a very narrow view of it.  If there were a shortage of women, the surplus men would still want a chance to be part of a family, for a variety of reasons having nothing to do with propagating society.

Nobody said that propogation of society is the only purpose of marriage. This was in response to the hypothetical scenario of mass destruction in the society and the need to increase the population. EVEN if only the female population is the one that decreased . . . the solution AGAIN would be to repopulate. With the natural birth balance which causes more females to be born as compared to males. . . natural propogation (polygyny would help the process) will STILL result in more females being born. . .
 
4. It should be of no importance to know which man fathered the child.  The parents are responsible for raising the children -- and that means all the parents, not just the biological father.
 
It is of utmost importance to the child and society to know BOTH the parents of a child. There is no difficulty in knowing the identity of the mother, even in Polygyny. It is usually Fatherhood that is difficult to foretell under unordinary circumstances.
 
For the child's stability, emotional wellbieng, sense of security and what-not, the Child should be aware of his parent's presence. You will perhaps agree that a lot of psychological disorders take root from childhood. Growing up with 2/3 fathers, and not knowing which is not exactly going to effect the child positivley.
 
Then there is the question of the Father's themselves. There is no such thing as a natural 'fathering' instinct as opposed to a natural maternal instinct. To a large extent, the feelings a father develops has something to do with genes and biology. Are u going to say that 3 (or less) men are going to have NO issues whatsoever raising a child and loving it wholeheartedly, whilst knowing that there is a huge chance the child isnt even his? and his rival's? I think there are difinitley going to be issues.
 
Psychology aside . . . Medical issues. In case of ill-health . . . knowing the paternity can determine cures. Bone Marrow, Blood-types, etc etc. The doctor will need to know who the father is, it not anyone else. I'm sure this particular area can be talked about in detail itself.
 
5 and 6. In terms of sexual relations, one woman is more capable of satisfying multiple men than the other way around.  As for men having an innately higher sex drive, I believe that is a cultural presumption, not a physical fact.
 
We're talking of natural means to intimate relations. And I'm sorry, this is nothing cultural, its a scientific fact. In the MAJORITY of cases (I'm not saying 100%) Males DO have a higher libido. You will find that the biological reason for this is the presence of Testosterone. Testosterone effects the libido in BOTH men & women. And since its a widley known fact that Males have MORE testosterone compared to thier female counterparts . . .hence they have a higher libido. I'm afraid what YOU are saying is a cultural phenomenon, post-women's lib . . .which considers males and females the same. I'm all for female rights, but we need to differentiate facts from fiction.
 
7. Sexually transmitted diseases are spread via promiscuity, regardless of gender. 
Unfortunatley, just like Homosexuals are more likely to catch STDs than Heteros . . . Females are more likley to catch STDs than males. One can argue that nature is biased against Homo's and Females. . . but thats the way things are. It has something to with the anatomy of both genders. Thus females with multiple partners are more likley to catch STDs than those with a single partner.
 
9. Again, I think that is a cultural presumption, not a physical fact.  Women may no longer be capable of having children, but they are no more likely than men to lose their interest in sex.
 
Again, this myth was propgated post-women's lib. I KNOW that NOT ALL females lose interest as they mature. I am talking about a significant if not majority number. This again is a blatant scientific fact. Refer to the causes/symptoms of menopause. The DECREASE in hormones such as Testosterone, Estrogen and Progestrone has everything to do with decreased interest. You may want to refer to http://www.epigee.org/menopause/sexdrive.html It also explains OTHER anatomical reasons for lower libido . . .that I dont wish to go into the details of.
 
Thus its not a cultural presumption.
 
I agree with Israfil here, this has boiled down to sex . . .but unfortunatley, the EMOTIONAL aspects of it cannot be proven as scientifically. Which is why the discussion boiled down to what it did.
 
Just a quick survey of uninhibited societies of the world will show you that men are more naturally inclined to be keeping multiple partners at the same time compared to women. Which I think proves that women are not naturally, emotionally and physically inclined to be keeping multiple partners. And they do so out of choice.
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Quote Hayfa Replybullet Posted: 09 June 2008 at 6:33am
Interesting in the tribes in Nepal that practive poygamy, wife with two husbands they rotate.. one husband is off in the mountanis for six months and then they switch. If wife gets pregnant they know who the  child's father is, although they are brothers so less relavant.
 
So practically speaking people DO run societies around it. Agered not many. But some do.
 
When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi
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Ron Webb
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 09 June 2008 at 6:32pm

Originally posted by Chrysalis

For the child's stability, emotional wellbieng, sense of security and what-not, the Child should be aware of his parent's presence. ...

Then there is the question of the Father's themselves. ... I think there are difinitley going to be issues.

Well Chrysalis, you're welcome to your opinion, but I don't agree.  There were no "issues" for me or my stepdaughter, despite there being no biological connection between us.  What matters is the stability of the parent-child relationships, not the biology.  As for medical issues, etc., you said yourself that biological paternity can be determined if necessary.
 

We're talking of natural means to intimate relations. And I'm sorry, this is nothing cultural, its a scientific fact. In the MAJORITY of cases (I'm not saying 100%) Males DO have a higher libido. ...

Women's sexuality is entirely different than men's (not surprisingly).  I don't even know how you would measure it, let alone compare the two scientifically.  I'd be interested in any references you can provide (privately), but I don't think this is the right forum to discuss it.

Just a quick survey of uninhibited societies of the world will show you that men are more naturally inclined to be keeping multiple partners at the same time compared to women. Which I think proves that women are not naturally, emotionally and physically inclined to be keeping multiple partners. And they do so out of choice.

I agree that men (young men in particular, I'm not so sure about older men/women) are more inclined to seek multiple partners.  But frankly I think that is more about promiscuity than lasting relationships; and I think it illustrates not only that young men are more comfortable with multiple partners, but that they are more comfortable with their women having multiple partners.

Men don't mind using prostitutes, for instance, knowing full well that the women are having sex with many other men.  How many women don't mind knowing that the man they are with today was with a different woman yesterday, and will be with another tomorrow?

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Quote Chrysalis Replybullet Posted: 09 June 2008 at 10:04pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb

There were no "issues" for me or my stepdaughter, despite there being no biological connection between us.  What matters is the stability of the parent-child relationships, not the biology.  As for medical issues, etc., you said yourself that biological paternity can be determined if necessary.

 

I was/am not talking about an adopted/step relationship. Such a relationship can still grow to be very strong and beneficial. Because the stepfather knows frm the start that the child is not his, and is not faced with the boilogical dads. . . no conflicting emotions. Easy to make the child 'your own'.
 I am referring to a case where 2/3 'fathers' are sharing one child, without knowing the paternity. I don't think you would be loving the child as much, if you KNEW that 2 more men could easily be the biological fathers of the child. WHILST..sharing the child with those possible fathers, the not knowing, and facing the possible dads. This is not a case of an absent biological father whose place you can take, but active, present ones. One would have to be a Saint to do that. 
 
We're talking of natural means to intimate relations. And I'm sorry, this is nothing cultural, its a scientific fact. In the MAJORITY of cases (I'm not saying 100%) Males DO have a higher libido. ...

You can simply look up the 'sex hormone' testosterone . . .which determines libido, and compare its presence in males and females. I'm not going to be arguing about this furthur, no point butting heads. Fact.
 
  But frankly I think that is more about promiscuity than lasting relationships; and I think it illustrates not only that young men are more comfortable with multiple partners, but that they are more comfortable with their women having multiple partners.
Although young men are more likely to have more one-night stands, older men are more likley to indulge in affairs, keeping mistresses which is a relativley long term r/ship. A quick glance in history will give us ample examples of older men with long-term mistresses. And I think the men u r talking abt r probably ok abt thier one-night-stands having mulitple partners. . . but if the woman is thier lifepartner, girlfirend, wife . . .far from confortable, they would hate it.

Men don't mind using prostitutes, for instance, knowing full well that the women are having sex with many other men. 
 

Thats different. Why? Bcz its a one-time thing/prostitute, which is why men don't mind 'sharing' the woman. There is no long-term r/ship commitment involved. However, would the same men be willing to MARRY the prostitute? Or have a long-term r/ship with it? Knowing she has had numeous men? Let alone a (concious) child? No. . . (again, I expect u might say they most certainly will, but in all honestly, and in the majority of cases, the wont) Why? bcz he will not want to marry public property, and would like a more exclusive woman to marry. Unfortunatley, in MOST societies that is a fact, and perhaps the nature of men. INfact, even a woman will not want to marry a promiscuis man under normal circumstances.
 
 How many women don't mind knowing that the man they are with today was with a different woman yesterday, and will be with another tomorrow?
I dont think its a case of 'don't mind knowing'. . . Rather, I think they cannot help it. If ANY woman/man would have it his/her way, they would not choose a partner whilst knowing they had been with other ppl, and will be. The reason you say 'they dont mind' is bcz there basically is no other choice for these women. In such a society, all men have been wid other women, so the woman has to resign herself to that. Howevr, if the society offers single, chaste men . . .no doubt women would opt for them.
 
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Ron Webb
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 15 June 2008 at 7:52pm

Originally posted by Chrysalis

I am referring to a case where 2/3 'fathers' are sharing one child, without knowing the paternity. I don't think you would be loving the child as much, if you KNEW that 2 more men could easily be the biological fathers of the child. WHILST..sharing the child with those possible fathers, the not knowing, and facing the possible dads. This is not a case of an absent biological father whose place you can take, but active, present ones. One would have to be a Saint to do that.

So if I thought I might be my stepdaughter's biological father that would make me less loving?  This makes sense to you?

You can simply look up the 'sex hormone' testosterone . . .which determines libido, and compare its presence in males and females. I'm not going to be arguing about this furthur, no point butting heads. Fact.

Testosterone is the male sex hormone.  There are two female sex hormones: estrogen and progesterone.  Fact.

Howevr, if the society offers single, chaste men . . .no doubt women would opt for them.

No doubt.  I think you just made my point for me. Wink

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Quote believer Replybullet Posted: 17 June 2008 at 6:49am
One of the problems with polygamy!!
 
 
Nujood's unemployed father, Ali Mohammed Ahdal, has two wives and 16 children. He is among the many tribal Yemenis who have migrated to the capital looking for work. Instead, he found misery.
 


Edited by believer - 17 June 2008 at 6:59am
John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
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