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aka2x2
 
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bullet Posted: 07 May 2008 at 1:34pm

The logic of the original post is flawed. If this argument is accepted then one might argue that murderers, child molesters, and rapists deserve tolerance as well.

 

Homosexuality is legal in the US but it is a sin in Islam. The American society and legislature have made homosexuality legal, but they cannot make it Halal. Only Allah (swt) has the authority to make Halal and Haram.

 

HHMuslims are not required to be tolerant of sin. Asking us to do otherwise misses the whole point of submitting to God’s will as opposed to the whims of the society.


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aka2x2
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Ron Webb
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bullet Posted: 07 May 2008 at 5:50pm
Originally posted by aka2x2

The logic of the original post is flawed. If this argument is accepted then one might argue that murderers, child molesters, and rapists deserve tolerance as well.
 
Let me state the obvious, again: murders, child molester and rapists hurt other people.  Homosexuals do not.
 
HHMuslims are not required to be tolerant of sin. Asking us to do otherwise misses the whole point of submitting to God’s will as opposed to the whims of the society.
What does that mean in practice?  What are you being asked to do, exactly, that you are unwilling to do?
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Israfil
 
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bullet Posted: 07 May 2008 at 9:50pm
Obviously I'm not concerned with Fareeda's pictorials as they prove nothing to the argument at hand.
 
Israfil, are you a Muslim or not? If not then what are doing coming here and forcing us to listen to your dictates on homosexuality? Follow what you want and allow us to follow our faith, Islam. 
 
This question is redudant and tiresome. You have obviously characterized me as a "non-muslim" so what is the difference whether I state what I am? This will not change your position.
 
You are full of chauvanist attacks and your post sounds very illogical and prejudiced. It seems that you just want to manipulate this board to promote promiscuity and homosexuality.
 
Calling me whatever is your opinion and frankly, without merit. but as far as manipulation is concerned I have done none. You are claiming that I am promoting homosexual promiscuity when you have not provided evidence that such a sexual orientation leads that type of behavior. heterosexual men with multiple wives, concubines, men who cheat I don't know I guess homosexuals are the only ones who are promiscuous.
 
You have not read my comments or researched the links on scientific evidence against homosexuality that I posted, but only attacked all my posts even when it is crystal clear now that homosexuality is a disorder. It is very foolish of you, Israfil to say all those scientists in NARTH are wrong.
 
I read the partial article on the Islamic website you've provided. The obvious response from me is that I cannot hold their views valid as it is religious and biased. Many religious scholars have not done the independent studies to prove this. they leave it up to other researchers with low to none empirical evidence to advance their beliefs. I've seen this in many religious articles concerning homosexuality and Catholicism and I see no difference here on Islamic weblinks. Simply stating that individuals who are gay and can receive therapy for that stigmatizes those who have legitimate feelings of their sexuality and in turn considers persons who are gay unethical and immoral. This is wrong and unanimously rejected therapy in the APA (American Psychological Association). I am a member of APA and as I mentioned in previous posts the APA does not accept the standards of Narth. Aklthough they do in fact do research their studies on "ex-gays" and reparitive therapy are not agreed upon by researchers. Not only are these studies done with small samples, there is not enough to generalize the findings on a larger scale See ref: http://0-web.ebscohost.com.torofind.csudh.edu/ehost/pdf?vid=4&hid=105&sid=e639b0ff-2837-47f8-9d8d-f857594653bc%40sessionmgr103
 
In addition, many of these repartive therapies have religious variables that influence the change in sexual reorientation see another article concerning this matter : http://0-web.ebscohost.com.torofind.csudh.edu/ehost/pdf?vid=5&hid=105&sid=e639b0ff-2837-47f8-9d8d-f857594653bc%40sessionmgr103
 
You should be careful before scandalizing a full team of educated scientists. They have far more qualifications than you and I.
 
Any scientist can call themselves a researcher. It is my duty as a researcher myself to chanllenge the validity of these findings. like I said there is not enough evidence to support NARTH's theories if you read the articles that I've listed you'll see.
 
Homosexuals living together as man and wife and dressing and acting as the opposite sex is strictly forbidden in Islam.
 
Fareeda the above bold is a pure example of your ignorance of sexual orientation. First off, dressing as the opposite sex while being of that particular sex is called "cross-dressing" not homosexuality. Sure there are certain homosexual  persons who fulfill those roles but you cannot prove that this sexual orientation shows a causality of such. For example if a gay man decides to dress up as a woman for whatever reason it is because he is trying to psychologically speaking fulfill the role of a typical "woman."
 
From your website:

"When a man mounts another man, the throne of God shakes."

I kinda laughed at that. I wish the authors explained more on what that meant.
 
"Lesbianism by women is adultery between them." (Tabarani, sahih)"
 
I highly doubt the word "lesbianism" was a word known back then.
 
What is sinful in homosexuality is the actual sexual act between the couple of a similar sex.
 
This is the problem here in your article is that when one thinks of homosexuality you think of "gay sex." Who is the perverted here? What if there are individuals who are homosexual but are not sexually active? After all you have "elderly couples" who are homosexual who are not sexually active.
 
One could argue from a biologixcal standpoint God created all mammals heterosexual for the purpose of replenishing the population. But from a Cognitive standpoint one can say that although our biological processes are evident, they do not necessarily mean we are to be with the opposite sex. After all we see homosexuality in the animal kingdom:
 
Homosexual Activity Among Animals Stirs Debate
 

Roy and Silo, two male chinstrap penguins at New York's Central Park Zoo have been inseparable for six years now. They display classic pair-bonding behavior—entwining of necks, mutual preening, flipper flapping, and the rest. They also have sex, while ignoring potential female mates. http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/07/0722_040722_gayanimal.html

If homosexuality is so horrible, why would god allow this affect both humans and animals? Since animals have no rational capacity as humans why do both have the similar behaviors when it comes to companionship?
 
Think for a minute if homosexuality was prevalent throught time and in all societies then you wouldn't exist today.
 
This is a no brainer. Obviously if homosexuality was more evident then heterosexuality then human population would dwindle to near extinction. Duh!
 
If everyone followed your opinion, Israfil and they accepted homosexuality as the norm then in a very short period of time we would all be extinct, so rather than calling yourself Israfil, instead it would have been far more appropriate if you had chosen the name Israel, the Angel of Death.
 
You'd be dumb to even think that is an insult. If the world was as intolerant as you....well...actually a lot of people in the world do think like you. no wonder humans treat each other like crap.
 
 

The logic of the original post is flawed. If this argument is accepted then one might argue that murderers, child molesters, and rapists deserve tolerance as well.

 
aka2x2 give me a break write more poetry and not this garb. As Ron rightly points out you cannot make one's sexual orientation synonymous with someone who deliberately takes another persons life. This is laughable thinking.
 

Homosexuality is legal in the US but it is a sin in Islam. The American society and legislature have made homosexuality legal, but they cannot make it Halal. Only Allah (swt) has the authority to make Halal and Haram.

 
By definition of "Halaal" if the United States has not outlawed homosexuality, then in essence it is making it "Halaal" because the law is allowing homosexuals to behave accordingly. the only think NOT recognized by the courts are gay marriage and that is changing. you need to read more.
 
Muslims are not required to be tolerant of sin. Asking us to do otherwise misses the whole point of submitting to God’s will as opposed to the whims of the society.
 
Funny but if we consider the Christians to sin when they worship Jesus and not God the Creator we tolerate them. I don't see a difference in this type of  thinking. I'm merely saying, in essence despite the title of thread that we should tolerate the differences of humans.
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fareeda
 
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bullet Posted: 08 May 2008 at 1:19am

To AK2X2

I totally agree with you on the basis of the responsibility of Sin. What some users here don't understand or deliberately ignore is the fact that Islam is against homosexuality, therfore, Muslims can not engage in homosexuality, it is a sin. Religion makes no difference to whether you are a good scientist, or or not.  In fact religion has been a boost to scientific research as 'adab' (in arabic) has to be strictly followed in scientific methodology. A complacent, fraudulant liar can never be an unbiased, research scientist or a devoted doctor promoting good health. This is why you will see among evolutionists themselves who denounce the hypothesis of Charles Darwin and a whole team of scientists in Narth speaking out the truth against abnormal homosexual behaviour, because it is unatural and doesn't agree to the inner 'fitrah', the natural disposition to be pure within us which Allah swt created and because speaking the truth and standing for justice is a part and parcel of human beings and is has to be included in scientific opinion when partaking in research.
 
Also yes the concept of religious tolerance and freedom, allowing people to believe what they want is something that fascists and dictators never want to promote. Although they live in a free society, and seem to want to grab the whole world, they can never really get round accepting those who are different from them allowing them to live in peace in accordance to their human rights.
 
This is why Allah swt says to us to strive against oppression, because there is no compulsion in religion, and we are entitled to live as Muslims and commit ourselves to our religious worship of Allah, to follow our holy scripture, the Quran no matter how much the disbelievers want to be against us.
 
Finally, yes we can still have great scientists who believe in the authority of God the creator of the universe and follow His divine laws, rather than listening and responding to casual chavanist bloggers on the net!
 
 


Edited by fareeda - 08 May 2008 at 2:35am
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fareeda
 
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bullet Posted: 08 May 2008 at 2:03am
Gay activists have strenuously argued that there is no connection between homosexuality and the sexual abuse of children. They point out that the majority of child molestation cases are by heterosexuals. But they neglect a pivotal fact: Homosexuals comprise only a small percentage of the population, yet account for an extraordinarily high percentage of offenses against children.
 
See: 
 
 
 
 
 
A NARTH Member sent the following letter to a call-in radio show, "Love Line," hosted by a psychotherapist named Dr. Drew. As an ex-gay man himself, our reader was disturbed that Dr. Drew had a one-sided understanding of the homosexual condition. This insightful struggler notes that people should not necessarily act on what or who they are attracted to, because those attractions may be rooted in a deficit cannot be fulfilled within a sexual relationship.
 


Edited by fareeda - 08 May 2008 at 2:41am
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fareeda
 
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bullet Posted: 08 May 2008 at 2:53am
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Hayfa
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bullet Posted: 08 May 2008 at 7:53am

The reason I'm stating these reason here is because I've notice that even today some f our languages have rendered themselves intolerant towards others. I noticed mean unwilling to give other men hugs they do not want to be categorized and labeled as being a "fag" which I might say the latter is an intolerant and inappropriate word to denote homosexuals.

 

Israfil, that is actually western culture. When I was in Pakistan the men held arms and hands ALL the time. Probably did that more then with family female relatives. It was an eye-opener for me as a guest. I was staring at them! For others, no big deal. Because in Islam you don’t really show affection for the opposite sex in public. Maybe hold hands.. but again, it goes back to the public vs. private concept of sexuality.

 

So how do we explain this? By helping them fight against a possible biological urge? By praying for them? By telling them to repent to God? Isn't it a bigger crime for one to deny one's trueself?

 

See that is a different type of notion.. about “denying one’s true self.” Yes one should in many cases. The obligation, if you have certain values is to love Allah first and foremost. This life is an illusion. Now people don’t have this as their value system then so be it. But its like, there are things I “like” that I refrain from doing as it is not TRULY helpful to me.  Its hard to explain. But its like the man who hits 40. His wife is older and bore his children. Maybe got a bit out of shape. His “true self” says I want a younger, prettier wife. What does he do? He leaves her and finds a young woman. Just as an example. Now in Islam it is not about this life, but the afterlife. And yes, maybe he can find a greater reason to do the “right thing.”  We view happiness as a “right.” But how we define “happiness” is so tied up to pleasing ourselves. That is one world view. Another view is that when I please and obey people, I please Allah. The binds that tie people are deeper. Not about “me” but about others.    

 

And, what would happen to these folks if they were only in a place with the opposite sex? Say a gay man with only women? Would he sleep with them, or deny himself sex for really long periods of time??

 

And really, whether “sexuality” is socially controlled or created is irrelevant in that for Muslims, society IS geared towards a certain dynamic and Muslims feel it should be that way. It is what we are told to do by the Quran and Sunnah. Like why people don’t “date” or men and women pray in separate sections or areas. There is purpose.

 

Also…

 

1. putting homosexualtiy with pedophila and rape are not the same. For the issue is consent and violence. In rape as in pedophilia, the woman (or man in rape) and young children are not giving their consent. So on that level they are separate.  All might be considered acts against God, but not all are considered acts against innocent people (unless it is rape)

 

2. There is the angle of private vs. public. There are all types of "deviant" behavior. All over the world. As we know, it is Allah's to judge. But what is different, I think, is the public nature of sexuality of all forms as we see ehre in the west. What two people do in their bedroom is up to them. But when it becomes public... then it is an issue. And maybe as the west is so publically sexualized that people who are gay want they same as everyone else.

 

3. one may have "feelings" but the question is action upon them. If I like to drink I should refrain. And as been pointed out, yes they may not be too keen on having sex with the oppostie sex, but they still can.  We are not meant to be "happy" per say in this world. We all have different trials. The people in Burma face one now, the people in war town countries faace them, people with diseases face them, people who need mor self-control face them.  Unfortunately society is about the here and now, my "pleasures" and going for them are constantly stimulated. And there is no discipline. So to think someone who has different ideas should refrain from the sexualized culture.. well... they are just as confused by it all as many people are.

 

4. When speaking about tolerance.. the  question always arises as to what is acceptable in any culture.. or group. For instance, if going to the masjid, there are probably men who abuse their wives. Yet they are tolerated.. Or there are people who go to clubs and sleep around with the opposite sex. And yet the family does not disown them?  But will an openly gay couple be accepted? No.  I am not passing  judgement, just thinking a few thoughts.

When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi
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aka2x2
 
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bullet Posted: 08 May 2008 at 10:06am

Ron

You said “what are you asked to do?”

Well we are asked to condone/tolerate or at least keep silent about homosexuality. As I have stated before this is not in our authority to give. Allah made it a sin and He is the only one who can change the verdict on that. I am sure He had his reasons.

 

However, I must also point out that as a Citizen/Muslim I am not required to uncover, judge, or punish homosexuals any more than I am required to act regarding other sinners.

 

Your argument about Homosexuals not hurting anyone does not hold water. Pedophiles don’t think they are hurting anyone. They think kids like having sex with them. Necrophilia certainly does not hurt anyone living. Sex with animals could be explained away by saying the other party is not human and does not have any rights…etc…etc.

 

Whether you hurt the other party or not does not determine if something is a sin or not.

 

Israfil,

Please don’t make me feel tired all over.

Allah made Homosexuality Haram in the Quran when He told the story of Lot and his people. The fact that the act is not illegal in America does not “make it Halal by definition”.

 

I hope you’ll take a piece of advice from me:

 

Do not cherry pick from Islam to support your own sense of right and wrong; instead see what is in the Quran and try to follow it. Otherwise, you are on a very slippery slope.

 

I have said my piece.

Go in peace you all.


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