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peacemaker
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bullet Posted: 05 May 2008 at 10:33am

Assalamu Alaikum,

First of all, I find very offensive to see the level of rudeness and tone of the language in this thread. I say this not only as a moderator, but also as a participant. Since it is a da’wah site, utmost care should be given as to how we communicate here; it is much more important for Muslims as they are hosts; they are the ones here who are supposed to communicate and explain to the guests and to the global audience about Islam.

As far as issue at hand is concerned, it has already been explained here many times that homosexuality is a major sin in Islam. In fact, it was a crime for which the people of Prophet Lot ( peace be upon him ) were punished after being warned of severe consequences if they wouldn’t abandon this bad habit. Many world religions, including Islam, forbid this practice.

Please see the following link for further study:

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503544846

The matter as to how a homosexual should be treated varies from society to society. In many Muslim as well as non-Muslim societies, this practice is not acceptable at all; in some societies, this is given permissibility even at public level. In general, tolerance towards such people by Muslims can be interpreted as tolerance towards any other human being, including non-Muslims, polytheists etc. The best thing for Muslims would be to refrain from this forbidden practice and let laws of the land decide in such matters.

We should avoid bringing such serious issues in the future that already have sundry explanations posted by various members here time and again. The kind of manner noticed here indicates that just claiming to be a Muslim is not enough on this da’wah site; a transformation or change is required in order to meet the criteria of being a da’iy. I don’t exclude myself here, and even I need to upgrade my skills to educate masses about Islam.

This form of abusive and foul language as witnessed in this thread will not be tolerated nor will the opening of such sensitive topics or issues, discussed at various occasions from time to time, be acceptable here.

Please refer to past threads on this topic or ask a scholar for any further clarification.

May Allah guide us all.

Peace



Edited by peacemaker - 05 May 2008 at 10:50am
Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?
Qur'an 55:13
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fareeda
 
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bullet Posted: 05 May 2008 at 11:16am
Salams,
 
Israfil, you have chosen a name of a very important angel during the time the world will come to end and Judgement Day will commence, yet you do not seek the truth nor have done sufficent research on the myth of homosexuality.
 
As for suggesting that homosexuality is "scientifically normal", let me assure you that this is a MYTH.
 
Please do more research and read these:
 
 
 
 
Do you not think that if Allah swt, the Most Merciful, knew homosexuality was 'normal' that He would have allowed gays to get married? It is clear to most decent Muslims that homosexuality is sexual perversion. It is rebellion, it's a disbute of a man against womankind and for lesbians their disbute is with mankind. I agree with Br Samer, it is a psychological disorder, unlike that of islamophobes who say the same about Islam and Muslims. Just as you can never compare incest with the religion of Christianity, therefore you may not compare Islam with homosexuals, or any psychological disorders, because our Prophet was neither a homosexual nor had he ever commited incest or adultery, finally he certainly was not a mad man or suffering from dementia.
 
We, Muslims are neither afraid to speak the truth nor afraid to defend our honourable faith.
 
May Allah guide you and help you to focus on the more important matters, the reality of life and death, our final goal to Allah and to be raised again on His final Judgement Day.
 
Wasalam


Edited by fareeda - 05 May 2008 at 11:25am
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semar
 
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bullet Posted: 05 May 2008 at 11:18am
Originally posted by Israfil

Semar,
 
The reason the scientific/psychological community (one which I am apart of) considers homosexuality NOT to be a disorder is because of the ethical stipulations of labeling a sexual orientation as a disorder.

That was my point (ethical or political decision not  scientific decision).
 
Originally posted by Israfil


I believe the main reason they "perform homosexual activity", because lack of faith.
 
The problem with this statement is that it reeks of stereotypical and prejudicial garb. what is homosexual activity? Are you referring to simply homosexual, sexual, activity? First off, when you see people who are gay or lesbian why would you automatically think of sexual intercourse or sexual things? Maybe its the social condition that you and/your social upbringing has developed. I have befriended many gays and lesbians who have regular lives like all of us. Many of these individuals hold down positions of importance and can perform the same as we heterosexual individuals do. Besides, if you don't have a choice in matters of sexuality how do you lack faith?
 

 
"Homosexual activity" means "unusual" sexual intercourse or other "unusual" sexual things".
I have no problem if they don't do the "unusual" sexual intercourse or other "unusual" sexual things", for us there is no proof anyway, if they don't do that. I think by using the premise that Allah will not punish people who have intention to do bad things until they really do that, so in this case will be the same, if they have not done the "unusual things" will be OK.
 
Originally posted by Israfil


I have befriended many gays and lesbians who have regular lives like all of us. Many of these individuals hold down positions of importance and can perform the same as we heterosexual individuals do. Besides, if you don't have a choice in matters of sexuality how do you lack faith?
 

If we talk about about this issue, I think we should refer to the "faith's ethical standard".
I agree that they regular people, like people who commit adultery also regular people and many of them hold importance position. But in the eye of religion both of them are big sinners (in my understanding).
 
Moreover if Allah ask us not to do something I believe there is bad implication if we violate it, even if we can't not see/understand it now. On earlier post the population shrinking is one possibility, high percentage aids cases on homos another possibility.


Edited by semar - 05 May 2008 at 2:47pm
Salam/Peace,
Semar
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bullet Posted: 05 May 2008 at 12:39pm
Peacemaker
Salamoalaykum:
Jazakullah for Islam on line link and appropriate advisement on the subject!Lamp



Edited by Sign*Reader - 05 May 2008 at 12:42pm
Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.
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bullet Posted: 05 May 2008 at 2:15pm
Originally posted by Israfil

It is good to critically think on these issues. Using the story of Lot is a weak argument.
 
Israfil, your comment is suggesting that the Quran verses on Lot are "weak arguments", I am saddened to read this, as a Muslim, you should know the contrary to be true.
 
 
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bullet Posted: 05 May 2008 at 6:05pm

I'm not sure what the point of this discussion is.  Obviously the Quran considers it a major sin; but beyond that, arguing about whether homosexuality is "unusual", abnormal", a "disease", etc., is nothing more than playing word games.  The underlying question is not what it is, but what we should do about it.  And the answer is clear: nothing at all, because regardless of what words you use to describe it, it's none of your business.

I do want to address one especially egregious bit of nonsense, however:

Originally posted by Sign*Reader

I agree it is not a disease but the numbers don’t lie they do carry more disease than others! Their life spans are no where near the normal population!

Actually the numbers often do lie -- or rather the people generating the numbers do.  This is a notoriously difficult subject for researchers for obvious reasons, but the best data I have seen puts (American male) homosexual lifespans a mere eight months less than the general population.

I invite you to quote some sources that say otherwise, and I'll be pleased to explain why and how they are lying.  I've been all over the 'Net debating this topic and I think by now I've seen 'em all.

Just one friendly piece of advice: don't cite Paul Cameron.  That would make it too easy. Smile



Edited by Ron Webb - 05 May 2008 at 6:15pm
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bullet Posted: 05 May 2008 at 9:46pm

Peacemaker,

 I'm sorry but I will NOT apologize for my rant. if you can check the inital posts in the beginning I made no personal attack on Sign Reader but quite the opposite. although I'm conscious of the forum guidelines I feel as an individual I deserve the right to defend myself if I feel that I'm personally attacked. I don't care whether someone finds my words ignorant. That is fine, welcome an attack on my argument or whatever but when individuals make personal reference to me (not the discussion) then it goes beyond the scope of the thread. For God's sake even Ron picked up on it. I don't give a damn if the person is Muslim or not I am a man before anything and I will not accept personal attacks on me especially if they are unwarranted.
 
you also said: We should avoid bringing such serious issues in the future that already have sundry explanations posted by various members here time and again.
 
I found this thread to be quite relevant because as you can see especially from the posts of Semar, there are a lot of individuals ignorant of homosexuality. the fact that an individual can equate homosexuality with pedophilia or serial killers is an alarming statement. It let's me know there is no fundamental knowledge on the issue. Besides most of the topics have become redundant here anyway (see political threads). I find this issue one that has not been discussed enough.
 
I have realized since my time on this site since '03 that I am not the best Muslim ( or even Muslim at all) but one thing I do know is that in my life I have treated humans with decency and respect and at least I can accept the differences of others whether physiological or mental. I am of the opinion which runs consistent and true here is that ther eis not enough tolerance of difference of people here and that is the honest truth.
 
Fareeda,
 
You said:
 
Israfil, you have chosen a name of a very important angel during the time the world will come to end and Judgement Day will commence, yet you do not seek the truth nor have done sufficent research on the myth of homosexuality.
 
Since you're a newbie I'll clue you in. I am a researcher and I do know the "truth" about homosexuality. We do over 2,000 case studies per year with individuals who identify themselves as homosexual. The basis of our finds in our research runs consistent and there is high internal validity in our reports. Now to what truth you are talking about I'm not sure, but of course the most obvious is the fact that you may be referring to the truth of homosexuality with respect to the Quranic verse regarding the people of Lot.
 
As for suggesting that homosexuality is "scientifically normal", let me assure you that this is a MYTH.
 
Obviously you didn't read my long post with the link attached that dispelled your above statement. I refuse to look at religious links because they tend to be biased towards their own religious agenda. Most religionist do not do case studies nor take the time to do research, but only look at compelling numbers that are geared towards their own opinion. If one does an objective research study regarding homosexuality one would see the differences in attitudes that are a great contrast to the conservative views of the religious community.
 
Fareeda you also said:
 
Do you not think that if Allah swt, the Most Merciful, knew homosexuality was 'normal' that He would have allowed gays to get married?
 
The above statement is non-sensical. Laws forbid gays and lesbians to get married not nature. It is obvious if laws permitted gays and lesbians to get married then they would. There are many gays and lesbians who consider themselves "married" even though it is not recognized by law so I'm not sure what your point is here in that sentence.
 
You also said:
 
It is clear to most decent Muslims that homosexuality is sexual perversion. It is rebellion, it's a disbute of a man against womankind and for lesbians their disbute is with mankind.
 
I have also shown that homosexuality, in many instances is not a matter of choice. how can one rebel against God if the feeling is innate. Society especially the conservative religious society has created a stigma in this type of categorization of moralizing the issue of homosexuality. We through doctrine have conditioned our society to not tolerate it because it is not accepted in the Qur'an. Although it is quite clear that God in the time of Lot did not accept the behavior, I am saying still this is no excuse for us to not be tolerant of people of this particular sexual orientation.
 
You also said:
 
I agree with Br Samer, it is a psychological disorder, unlike that of islamophobes who say the same about Islam and Muslims.
 
Semar's views on saying homosexuality as a psychological disorder has been proven via provided link by the american Psychological Association. A credible source see: http://www.apa.org/topics/sorientation.pdf
 
 
Semar you said:
 
That was my point (ethical or political decision not  scientific decision).
 
You are playing with words now because your original post did not have any inclination towards what you are saying in the above. As I have provided in the link the APA has mad eit clear that homosexuality is NOT a psychological disorder. There is no evidence that is shown that there are neurological disorders of any kind.
 
You also said:
 
"Homosexual activity" means "unusual" sexual intercourse or other "unusual" sexual things".
 
You have not mad eit clear what homosexual activity is. Your words are vague and unclear. What is homosexual activity I need you to be descriptive here.
 
You also said:
 
I have no problem if they don't do the "unusual" sexual intercourse or other "unusual" sexual things", for us there is no proof anyway, if they don't do that. I think by using the premise that Allah will not punish people who have intention to do bad things until they really do that, so in this case will be the same, if they have not done the "unusual things" will be OK.
 
Again you are still being unclear here.
 
You said:
 
If we talk about about this issue, I think we should refer to the "faith's ethical standard".
 
The world is much more bigger than our own standards in faith. If I see someone I cannot judge them based on what I know except their actions but if I don't know them why judge at all? My standards lie in what God wants from me not what I want in others. How I see others should have no bearing on my faith. People are people and you must understand you cannot change society. By simply being intolerant you are validating the social stigma that is placed on Islam and Muslims as an intolerant culture.
 
 "high percentage aids cases on homos another possibility."
 
Calling someone "homos" is definitely a derogatory term FYI. With respect to your AIDS/HIV case there are a lot of factors that contribute to the high rates of AIDS cases. In research we do not rule out extraneous variables that may affect the findings of HIV/AIDs case studies. Simply limiting it to sexual orientation is not enough to make a generalization that being homsexual or homsexual contributes to HIV/AIDS. Less we forget sharing needles, blood transfusions, lack of contraceptive use etc.
 
Fareeda you said:
 
Israfil, your comment is suggesting that the Quran verses on Lot are "weak arguments", I am saddened to read this, as a Muslim, you should know the contrary to be true.
 
I never said the vers eitself to be weak. Obviously that is contrary to my beliefs. I said I found it weak to simply quote the verse and say "there, I refuted your position because God said so here." In intellectual discourse if you are making a demonstrative claim and if you are quoting a doctrinal verse it is best to demonstrate your point from what the Qur'an says even if it sounds clear. Again it is easy to misappropriate the practices and beliefs of those ancient people with people of today. Like I mentioned with Semar, there are many homosexual individuals who are practicing physicians saving lives everyday. So would you say the doctor who is gay is like the person in the time of Lot? Again, by simply saying homosexuals are synonymous with evil like those people in the time of lot is an unfair association since the mentalities of that era has changed drastically.
 
Many scholars with personal agendas have used doctrinal verses to further their own cause. We have seen it with Osama Bin Laden. We have seen it with Billy Graham. We have seen it in the times of slavery where people used the story of Ham to validate slavery. Like I said, anyone can use a doctrinal verse and say that the truth is there but this is not demonstrative proof. I'm asking for demonstrative proof not a verse and someone telling me that there is the proof. I call for an explanation even if the person feels the doctrine doesn't need one it still helps. After all everyones perception of a thing is different.
 
 



 


 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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bullet Posted: 06 May 2008 at 12:07am

Israfil Said:
 
You are playing with words now because your original post did not have any inclination towards what you are saying in the above. As I have provided in the link the APA has mad eit clear that homosexuality is NOT a psychological disorder. There is no evidence that is shown that there are neurological disorders of any kind.

 
I am sorry Israfil, unfortunately I have not read the APA link yet. Apparently you  make an assumption about me. Hopefully on your other statement were not just  assumptions.  Here what I said on post even before you post the APA link:
===
Just in August, 1997, the Council of Representatives of the American Psychological Association approved a resolution that homosexuality is not a disorder. So if we can not say this is recently at least this is not long ago. And very sure this is not pure scientific decision but had very strong political aroma because 'homosexual community is getting bigger and gain more political muscle.
===
 

Israfil Said

You also said:
 
"Homosexual activity" means "unusual" sexual intercourse or other "unusual" sexual things".
 
You have not mad eit clear what homosexual activity is. Your words are vague and unclear. What is homosexual activity I need you to be descriptive here.
 
You also said:
 
I have no problem if they don't do the "unusual" sexual intercourse or other "unusual" sexual things", for us there is no proof anyway, if they don't do that. I think by using the premise that Allah will not punish people who have intention to do bad things until they really do that, so in this case will be the same, if they have not done the "unusual things" will be OK.
 
Again you are still being unclear here.


What can be clearer, we are adult bro.
 
Israfil said:
 You said:
 
If we talk about about this issue, I think we should refer to the "faith's ethical standard".
 
The world is much more bigger than our own standards in faith. If I see someone I cannot judge them based on what I know except their actions but if I don't know them why judge at all? My standards lie in what God wants from me not what I want in others. How I see others should have no bearing on my faith. People are people and you must understand you cannot change society. By simply being intolerant you are validating the social stigma that is placed on Islam and Muslims as an intolerant culture.

I thought because this is Islamic forum so to me the discussion is about homosexual from Muslim/Islamic perspective.
 
Israfil said:

 "high percentage aids cases on homos another possibility."
 
Calling someone "homos" is definitely a derogatory term FYI. With respect to your AIDS/HIV case there are a lot of factors that contribute to the high rates of AIDS cases. In research we do not rule out extraneous variables that may affect the findings of HIV/AIDS case studies. Simply limiting it to sexual orientation is not enough to make a generalization that being homosexual or homosexual contributes to HIV/AIDS. Less we forget sharing needles, blood transfusions, lack of contraceptive use etc.

I used "homos" to make shorter word, so please read it as homosexual persons. Anyway how many percent of homos who have HIV/AIDS positive who used to use needles. You stated that you were researcher you might have data about that. From that we can draw conclusion, needles or anal sexual intercourse, the main cause of HIV/AIDS in homos community.

 

Salam/Peace,
Semar
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"1/3 of your stomach for food 1/3 for water, 1/3 for air"
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