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General Islamic Matter
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Message Icon Topic: Revisiting an "Old Issue"(Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post Reply Post New Topic
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Israfil
 
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bullet Topic: Revisiting an "Old Issue"
    Posted: 30 April 2008 at 10:21pm

Although we have discussed this issue many times on this forum, the trends of intolerence are still a reality in many global communities. It is unfortunate that, with the espousal of praising God with our lips we contradict our spiritual morality by being intolerent of others because of their "difference."

To what am I referring you may wonder?
 
I am referring to homosexuality. there are many individual today who still retain prejudicial biases based upon shared cultural ignorance. Many individuals do not understand how and why members of the same sex find attraction to one another. Although we may disagree with the practice on a religious level in accordance to the faith it is important enough to understand why human beings are so different in this aspect.
 
To dispel some myths:
 
1) Being homosexual is not a disease
 
2) Being homosexual is not a curse
 
3) Being homosexual is not a genetic defect (I'm going against the grain here).
 
4) Being homosexual does not mean you have an oversexual behavior.
 
5) Being homosexual does not mean you are against God.
 
The reason I'm stating these reason here is because I've notice that even today some f our languages have rendered themselves intolerant towards others. I noticed mean unwilling to give other men hugs they do not want to be categorized and labeled as being a "fag" which I might say the latter is an intolerant and inappropriate word to denote homosexuals.
 
We all must understand that our sexual orientation is also facilitated socially, therefore many of us who are attracted to the opposite sex may thank the society we live in that helps us become attracted to the opposite sex. As of now, there is no conclusive evidence that states that we are inheritently heterossexual save certain studys on hormonal studies by biologist on attraction. but even if social conditioning was not the case for our attraction for the opposite sex can anyone us explain word for word why we are attracted to the opposite sex that is not commonly found in culture? Surely a woman cannot say she is attracted solely to men because she likes men. this is vague, therefore can each of us explain why we are attracted to the opposite sex? Of course not. Just like we cannot explain how we love someone. Certain behaviors simply cannot be explained.
 
On a similar note, many homosexuals derive their explanations from this reality. Even in an heterosexual environment, many homosexuals still cling to "internal" feelings they themselves cannot even explain. So how do we explain this? By helping them fight against a possible biological urge? By praying for them? By telling them to repent to God? Isn't it a bigger crime for one to deny one's trueself? Or does this mean that we've come to a problem here with respect to doctrine and God being the author of things?
 
More importantly I find what makes this issue problematic is the dialetical language we use to denote homosexuals. In today's research we are looking at genetic differences between homosexual brains and heterosexual brains. Although this is intriguing research, ethically speaking one could use the genetic defect arguement to denote homosexuality as a genetic defect of the human brain which would render someones sincere feelings a deffective effect of their brain chemistry. This is truly wrong science if this was the case. Just as there are biological differences in ethnic groups we must also accept sociological/biological differences in sexual orientation even if we at the core of our beliefs disagree with them.
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semar
 
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bullet Posted: 30 April 2008 at 11:07pm

Salam/Peace;

I think you are wasting time brother. I think in islam it is very clear, homosexual is final it's very clear in may verses in the Quran that talk about Prophet Lot pbuh.
 
I think homosexual is "heart" (moral) diseases like gambling addiction, sex predator, serial killer etc. Somehow their brain for whatever reason (maybe due to life experience, habit etc) has been change chemically that make them behave like that, release different chemistry compare to the normal people for the same response.
 
This disease must be cured, and can not be tolerate. If we tolerate homosexual, with the same logic we me may need to tolerate sex predator and serial killer. If there is no (God's+Human's) punishment for homoxesual, also it shouldn't be any punishment for the sex predator and serial killer because they have similar disease.
 


Edited by semar - 30 April 2008 at 11:32pm
Salam/Peace,
Semar
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Truth_light24
 
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bullet Posted: 01 May 2008 at 5:46am

The crime of homosexuality is one of the greatest of crimes, the worst of sins and the most abhorrent of deeds, and Allaah punished those who did it in a way that He did not punish other nations. It is indicative of violation of the fitrah, total misguidance, weak intellect and lack of religious commitment, and it is a sign of doom and deprivation of the mercy of Allaah. We ask Allaah to keep us safe and sound. 

Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And (remember) Loot (Lot), when he said to his people: ‘Do you commit the worst sin such as none preceding you has committed in the ‘Aalameen (mankind and jinn)?

81. ‘Verily, you practise your lusts on men instead of women. Nay, but you are a people transgressing beyond bounds (by committing great sins).’

82. And the answer of his people was only that they said: ‘Drive them out of your town, these are indeed men who want to be pure (from sins)!’

83. Then We saved him and his family, except his wife; she was of those who remained behind (in the torment).

84. And We rained down on them a rain (of stones). Then see what was the end of the Mujrimoon (criminals, polytheists and sinners)”

[al-A’raaf 7:80-84] 

“Verily, by your life (O Muhammad), in their wild intoxication, they were wandering blindly.

73. So As‑Saihah (torment — awful cry) overtook them at the time of sunrise.

74. And We turned (the towns of Sodom in Palestine) upside down and rained down on them stones of baked clay.

75. Surely, in this are signs for those who see (or understand or learn the lessons from the Signs of Allaah).

76. And verily, they (the cities) were right on the highroad (from Makkah to Syria, i.e. the place where the Dead Sea is now)”

[al-Hijr 15:72-76] 

al-Tirmidhi (1456), Abu Dawood (4462)and Ibn Maajah (2561) narrated that Ibn ‘Abbaas (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Whoever you find doing the action of the people of Loot, execute the one who does it and the one to whom it is done.”. Classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Tirmidhi

Ahmad (2915) narrated from Ibn ‘Abbaas (may Allaah be pleased with him) that the Prophet of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “May Allaah curse the one who does the action of the people of Loot, may Allaah curse the one who does the action of the people of Loot,” three times. This was classed as hasan by Shu’ayb al-Arna’oot in Tahqeeq al-Musnad

 



Edited by Truth_light24 - 01 May 2008 at 5:48am
And those who annoy believing men and women undeservedly, bear (on themselves) a calumny and a glaring sin. Quran33:59
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Israfil
 
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bullet Posted: 01 May 2008 at 9:34am

Thw two previous posts here is why I made this thread.

The fact that you (Semar) called homosexuality a disease like alcoholism and drugs is a great misunderstanding and misconception you have regarding sexual orientation. Of course I know homosexuality is not accepted in Islam nor am I making an attempt to make it acceptable. What I'm saying here is that even though its unacceptable we do not have to be intolerate. Being intolerate just because we disagree with it nullifies any sincere reason why we don't accept it regardless whether it's a moral problem for us.
 
You (Semar) said:
 
This disease must be cured, and can not be tolerate. If we tolerate homosexual, with the same logic we me may need to tolerate sex predator and serial killer. If there is no (God's+Human's) punishment for homoxesual, also it shouldn't be any punishment for the sex predator and serial killer because they have similar disease.
 
How can you compare one's sexual orientation to a conscious manipulation of one seducing a child sexually?

 

 
 
 


Edited by Israfil - 01 May 2008 at 9:34am
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semar
 
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bullet Posted: 01 May 2008 at 11:50am
Originally posted by Israfil

How can you compare one's sexual orientation to a conscious manipulation of one seducing a child sexually

 
How about serial killers. They happy to see sombody die on their hand. There is somthing wrong on their brain. Similar with homosexual, they happy to have sex with the same gender (attracted by the same gender), so there is something wrong to their brain. So it need to be cured.
Salam/Peace,
Semar
The Prophet said: "Do not eat before you are hungry, and stop eating before you are full"
"1/3 of your stomach for food 1/3 for water, 1/3 for air"
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Israfil
 
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bullet Posted: 01 May 2008 at 12:52pm
Originally posted by semar

Originally posted by Israfil

How can you compare one's sexual orientation to a conscious manipulation of one seducing a child sexually

 
How about serial killers. They happy to see sombody die on their hand. There is somthing wrong on their brain. Similar with homosexual, they happy to have sex with the same gender (attracted by the same gender), so there is something wrong to their brain. So it need to be cured.
 
Semar,
 
This misconception you have here s your generating an assumption that homosexuality equates with having a sexual behavior and it's the idea. Heterosexual's tend to be more ambitious when it come to exhibitionism, than homosexuals when it comes to reports. Homosexuality is not about simply having sexual intercourse with the same sex. From my understanding from research, it's about the cognitive choice to prefer to be with someone of the same sex. This "choice" although cognitive, perhaps may originate from a neuro-chemical reaction which is quite distinct from heterosexual. The problem here is there is not enough proof to show that this is the case.
 
But it is intolerant language to compare homosexuality to someone who is a serial killer since one is a deliberate action with disregard to life and the other is a deliberate choice. You are comparing apples and oranges.
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semar
 
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bullet Posted: 01 May 2008 at 1:55pm

Originally posted by Israfil

This "choice" although cognitive, perhaps may originate from a neuro-chemical reaction which is quite distinct from heterosexual. The problem here is there is not enough proof to show that this is the case.
 
If they do that by choice, to me, islamically this is more serious problem. On the other hand it is easier to be cured.
Originally posted by Israfil


But it is intolerant language to compare homosexuality to someone who is a serial killer since one is a deliberate action with disregard to life and the other is a deliberate choice. You are comparing apples and oranges.

Assuming that both of them caused by brain " defect / misbehave ",  both of them medically are the same.

Salam/Peace,
Semar
The Prophet said: "Do not eat before you are hungry, and stop eating before you are full"
"1/3 of your stomach for food 1/3 for water, 1/3 for air"
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Ron Webb
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bullet Posted: 01 May 2008 at 5:07pm
I am aghast that this even needs to be explained to anybody, but here goes:
Originally posted by semar

Originally posted by Israfil

How can you compare one's sexual orientation to a conscious manipulation of one seducing a child sexually
 
How about serial killers. They happy to see sombody die on their hand. There is somthing wrong on their brain. Similar with homosexual, they happy to have sex with the same gender (attracted by the same gender), so there is something wrong to their brain. So it need to be cured.
The difference between homosexuals and serial killers is that homosexuals hurt no one, except possibly themselves in your opinion.
 
I suggest you be a bit careful about who you label as "morally diseased" and in need of a "cure".  There are many people who say the same thing about Islam, and would like to "cure" you.
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