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Angel
 
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bullet Posted: 06 May 2008 at 3:25am
Whoever said that homosexuality is a myth really needs to do some more learning.
 
 
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fareeda
 
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bullet Posted: 06 May 2008 at 4:07am
Quoting Ronn: Re: "nothing more than playing word games"
 
Yes that is my point, esp when you haven't done any research, Ronn!
 
Just remember this is only *your* opinion, not ours, and it's certainly not based on sound, scientific research or Islam! So instead of telling and attacking Muslims, I suggest you to practice what you preach and as you said "mind your own business"
 
Sorry to sound harsh.
 


Edited by fareeda - 06 May 2008 at 8:33am
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fareeda
 
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bullet Posted: 06 May 2008 at 4:34am
Originally posted by semar

You also said:
 
You have not made it clear what homosexual activity is. Your words are vague and unclear. What is homosexual activity I need you to be descriptive here.
 
You also said:
Israfil
 
I agree with you Br Semar. The point is, when people are indulging or want to indulge in haram activities, they will make any excuse to make it appear that sinful relations are right. Allah swt mentioned to us in the Quran 8:48:
 
Remember Satan made their (sinful) acts seem alluring to them...
 
Brother, it's no use wasting time, arguing with those bent on sympathising with disbelief, who ignore Allah's signs from the Quran, who have no respect for our Prophet, his way of life. These people come in many guises in order to waver us from our path. You will all be here in endless and mindless debate simply because they have another agenda - to spread misinfo and disinfo on Islam and make muslims submit to evil,  and make them think there is something worng with our religion, when in fact they are the real losers. It's far better to support a better cause than to be amongst those who don't want to listen or take any note of scientific evidence that I have posted here.
 
They are the ignorant.
....And turn away from the ignorant” (Quran 7:199)
 
To those who take for friends unbelievers rather than believers: is it honour they seek among them? Nay,- all honour is with Allah. (Quran 4:139)
 
Already has He sent you Word in the Book, that when ye hear the signs of Allah held in defiance and ridicule, ye are not to sit with them unless they turn to a different theme: if ye did, ye would be like them. (Quran 4:140)
 


Edited by fareeda - 06 May 2008 at 10:53am
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Israfil
 
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bullet Posted: 06 May 2008 at 9:49am
I love self-righteous people!
 
Iam not persuading you to believe as I! I'm merely making a point to be tolerant to people of this sexual orientation as human beings not accept what they do these are entirely two different things. I obviously and personally do not believe in practicing homosexuality but I can tolerate it because I understand that for many, its not a matter of choice.
 
>>>>It's far better to support a better cause than to be amongts those who don't want to listen or take any note of scientific evidence that I have posted here.<<<<<
 
Religious postsor religious links are non-scientific I'm sorry. The basis of some religious findings are more inclined towards doctrinal than actual objective observations. I've done research long enough to know the difference.
 
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fareeda
 
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bullet Posted: 06 May 2008 at 10:07am
Originally posted by Israfil

I love self-righteous people!
 
Speak for yourself. It seems you are a Non Muslim, Israfil, yet you have chosen a religious user name of a particularly, highly esteemed angel, in Islam, only to be sullied by your character online.
 
Originally posted by Israfil

Iam not persuading you to believe as I! I'm merely making a point to be tolerant to people of this sexual orientation as human beings not accept what they do these are entirely two different things. I obviously and personally do not believe in practicing homosexuality but I can tolerate it ....
 
Be careful, you are retracting and self-contradicting your statements.
None of us said we are intolerant of others. Your friends can live as they like as long as they do not indoctrinate us with *their* "values"
 
Originally posted by Israfil

So would you say the doctor who is gay is like the person in the time of Lot?
 
Why, what makes you think there were no gay doctors at the time of Prophet Lot? 
 
So would you say the pedophile who gives charity is like a religious person such as Lot or prophet Muhammad pbuh? Would you say the doctor who mass murdered his patients is decent as a believer in God and so you think he will go to paradise without judgment? 
 
Originally posted by Israfil

Again, by simply saying homosexuals are synonymous with evil like those people in the time of lot is an unfair association since the mentalities of that era has changed drastically..
 
Again, by simply saying piety is synonymous with evil, and belief is synonymous with disbelief, that Muslims are synonymous with homosexuals is an unfair association since religious mentalities between believers from those of atheists, pagans, criminals, sexual perverts, pedophiles, rapists, fornicating homosexuals, are drastically different - Just as Moses was different to Pharaoh, David to Goliath, Lot to Sodom & Gomorrah, Jesus was to Herod and Julius Caesar then so are believers different to atheists, pagans, criminals and those who commit sexual crime and obscenities.
 
Originally posted by Israfil

Laws forbid gays and lesbians to get married not nature.  It is obvious if laws permitted gays and lesbians to get married then they would. There are many gays and lesbians who consider themselves "married" even though it is not recognized by law ...
 
1. How can you prove that 'nature' allows gays and lesbians to get married? Do lesbians have the same reproductive systems as males and can gay men get pregnant and give birth to children?
 
Answer: - Obviously and Naturally not!
 
2. Are the semen and the egg, the different sexual reproduction systems and genitals in males and females, are both systems found in gays or lesbians?
 
Answer: -Scientifically not!
 
3. Do lesbians females have an erected male organ when they are attracted to another female? Do gay men suffer from PMS or morning sickness during pregnancy?
 
Answer: - Medically and psychologically not!
 
Therefore, you are naturally and scientifically, medically and psychologically, completely and utterly wrong. God's Laws AND Nature forbid males and females to form gay and lesbian relationships or for them to get married.
 
Originally posted by Israfil

The above statement is non-sensical...
 
The most nonsensical sentence has to be yours about "nature" allowing homosexuality. To a Non-Muslim who doesn't believe in Allah or the Quran (or studied natural science for that matter) Twist the truth, turn myths into reality, sound nonsensical but blame it on others - you're a typical propagandist! I am sure scientific evidence also must sound nonsensical to you. 
 
Originally posted by Israfil

so I'm not sure what your point is here in that sentence...
 
It's called common sense - in case you didn't know.
 
Originally posted by Israfil

Religious postsor religious links are non-scientific I'm sorry. The basis of some religious findings are more inclined towards doctrinal than actual objective observations..
 
What a pity you are wrong again. On what scientific basis do you assert that religious persons are non-scientific? Since when was NARTH non-Scientific? Someone doesn't get a graduation and is called a Doctor, unless they have studied science.
 
Here are the links for you to check again.
 
 
 
Originally posted by Israfil

I've done research long enough to know the difference.
 
Oh really? Surely, you don't expect everyone to believe only you are correct? How unscientific.  I am sure that is what they call being arrogant. And no, people are not going to be bullied or pushed around or forced into believing your fantasies and dogma, only because, you say so.  
 
Get your facts right next time - if you don't want to be humiliated any further.
 


Edited by fareeda - 07 May 2008 at 3:30am
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abuayisha
 
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bullet Posted: 06 May 2008 at 11:36am
Originally posted by Israfil

 I'm merely making a point to be tolerant to people of this sexual orientation as human beings  
 
I think that most people of faith, Muslims, Jews, Christians and others are indeed tolerant Israfil, but the question becomes how tolerant.  Tolerance is a relative term having different meanings.  Let us take for example having our children participate with a local boys scouts group only to find that the scout leader is gay.  Are you tolerant enough to continue sending your son on camping trips?  Do you believe that same-sex couples should be allowed to adopt children thus denying them  an opportunity to grow up in a home with a mother and a father?   Lastly, it will be a hard sell on any site where members have moral values to expect them to become totally comfortable with that which is against their faith - keeping in mind that most are in fact tolerant, however the degree to which they are tolerant will differ depending upon the circumstances involved.
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bullet Posted: 06 May 2008 at 1:17pm
Originally posted by fareeda

Originally posted by Israfil

I love self-righteous people!
 
Speak for yourself. It seems you are a Non Muslim, Israfil, yet you have chosen a religious user name of a particularly, highly esteemed angel, in Islam, only to be sullied by your character online.
 
Originally posted by Israfil

Iam not persuading you to believe as I! I'm merely making a point to be tolerant to people of this sexual orientation as human beings not accept what they do these are entirely two different things. I obviously and personally do not believe in practicing homosexuality but I can tolerate it ....
 
Be careful, you are retracting and self-contradicting your statements.
None of us said we are intolerant of others. Your friends can live as they like as long as they do not indoctrinate me and others with "their values"
 
Originally posted by Israfil

Religious postsor religious links are non-scientific I'm sorry. The basis of some religious findings are more inclined towards doctrinal than actual objective observations. I've done research long enough to know the difference.
 
What a pity you are wrong again. On what scientific basis do you assert that religious persons are non-scientific? Since when was NARTH non-Scientific? Someone doesn't get a graduation and is called a Doctor, unless they have studied science.
 
Here are the links for you to check again.
 
 
 
Originally posted by Israfil

I've done research long enough to know the difference.
 
Oh really? Surely, you don't expect everyone to believe only you are correct? How unscientific.  I am sure that is what they call being arrogant. And no, people are not going to be bullied or pushed around or forced into believing your fantasties and dogma, only because, you say so.  
 
Get your facts right next time - if you don't want to be humiliated any further.
 

                           
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Edited by Sign*Reader - 06 May 2008 at 1:29pm
Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.
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Israfil
 
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bullet Posted: 06 May 2008 at 11:32pm
Speak for yourself. It seems you are a Non Muslim, Israfil, yet you have chosen a religious user name of a particularly, highly esteemed angel, in Islam, only to be sullied by your character online.
 
Thank You.
 
None of us said we are intolerant of others. Your friends can live as they like as long as they do not indoctrinate us with *their* "values"
 
My friends? Since when I did I mention my friends and the fact that you have quoted quranic veses and called them evil and comparable to serial killers is enough evidence to show intolerance. also where did you find me contradicting my statements? Let's see I said tolerate....Not accept sexual orientation....these are two different things one can tolerate something one does not believe in.
 
Why, what makes you think there were there no gay doctors at the time of Prophet Lot? So would you say the pedophile who gives charity is like a religious person such as Lot or prophet Muhammad pbuh? Would you say the doctor who mass murdered his patients is decent as a believer in God and so you think he will go to paradise without judgement? 
 
This is purely an ignorant analysis of the issue. For god's sake do you honestly think today's modern physicians with their advanced technical knowledge of medicine and some who declare themselves to be homosexual were like the people of Lot? Come on! that is backwards thinking. Technology and the amount of knowledge we have and the variety of personalities we have today surely cannot be comparable to those who lived in that time. Sure, there are certain behaviors we may find horrid comparable to those individuals but to compare killers pedophiles to homosexuals is simply absurd.
 
Again, in the same way, by simply saying piety is synonymous with evil, and belief is synonymous with disbelief, that Muslims are synonymous with homosexuals is an unfair association since religious mentalities between believers from those of atheists, pagans, criminals, sexual perverts, pedophiles, rapists, fornicating homosexuals, are drastically different -
 
Fareeda you honestly have no idea what you are talking about and a clue to the issue at hand. It is almost like you really have no logical sense or coprehension of the subject matter. I suggest with sincerity, to read on the issue. Read on the psychological reports on homosexuality and challenge your own beliefs with the reports of the American Psychological Association or the American Psychiartic Association.
 
What a pity you are wrong again. On what scientific basis do you assert that religious persons are non-scientific? Since when was NARTH non-Scientific? Someone doesn't get a graduation and is called a Doctor, unless they have studied science.
 
Narth is not even reputable much less accepted by the American Psychological Association which has completed way more research and way more studies than some company whose main theme is "sexual reorientation." One of the links you provided was religiously based and the  other I along with others in the scientific community would call psuedo-psychology would not even consider it a source. Besides there is only few empirical evidence presented or current that shows reports of "ex-gays" going through sexual reorientation (Professional Psychology: Research and Practice. 2002 Jun Vol 33(3) 242-248).
 
Oh really? Surely, you don't expect everyone to believe only you are correct? How unscientific.  I am sure that is what they call being arrogant. And no, people are not going to be bullied or pushed around or forced into believing your fantasties and dogma, only because, you say so.  
 
Get your facts right next time - if you don't want to be humiliated any further.
 
So far the only defense you have presented was Quranic verse which you failed to explain in detail how it supports your argument. you called Homosexuality a myth (obviously echoing the websites beliefs). I provided detailed rebuttal using only the APA pamphlet. No response. You linked homosexuality with serial killers i've provided a rebuttal for that no response.
 
If I showed you my own personal finds I'd be afraid you would even get the scientific jargon we use to even understand what we are saying. So why should I waste time and effort to show you actual scientific/psychological findings? It is quite obvious your mind is set on the issue. My only focus is to discuss some of the intolerant attitudes we face within the community. I only called you intolerant as soon as you started making claims that are considered socially intolerant.
 
>>Lastly, it will be a hard sell on any site where members have moral values to expect them to become totally comfortable with that which is against their faith - keeping in mind that most are in fact tolerant, however the degree to which they are tolerant will differ depending upon the circumstances involved.<<<
 
Agreed and you are right to say that the level of tolerance idffers from person to person. but there are things in the world we tolerate that we don't give great values to but are greatly valuable themselves. for instance I may not agree or like polytheism as a psiritual belief but I can tolerate those who believe in it. just because I am commanded to not believe in it or to not worship dieties aside from God doesn't mean I should not treat others with respect. I am definitely not saying here All muslims do not do this. I'm saying that from what has transpired here and from what I've seen and evaluated there is some intolerance going on here when it comes to the subject of homosexuality. Do I expect some criticism to this, of course but this is no different when someone is willing to challenge someone's beliefs. Besides, why tolerate Christianity but not gays? Why tolerate a faith that many muslims believe is polytheistic philosophically yet we can live among them? Because they are the people of the book? My challenge is why not the same for those who are sexually differen than we? That is my question.
 
I highly doubt anyone here concerning the issue has a rebuttal...
 
 
 
 
 
 
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