IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum: Jesus was crucified according to historia

Author

Message

myahya

Senior Member

Joined: 06 February 2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 222

Posted: 11 July 2008 at 3:16am

minuteman: Very good. Jesus said that he would die. It was true and he died.

I am astonished why you insist that Isa (as) must be died. It can not be referred from Quran. His possible aliveness does not contradict any Islamic pillar or doctrine.

IP Logged

believer

Guest Group

Joined: 08 January 2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1397

Posted: 11 July 2008 at 6:15am

003.055
YUSUFALI: Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.
PICKTHAL: (And remember) when Allah said: O Jesus! Lo! I am gathering thee and causing thee to ascend unto Me, and am cleansing thee of those who disbelieve and am setting those who follow thee above those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then unto Me ye will (all) return, and I shall judge between you as to that wherein ye used to differ.
SHAKIR: And when Allah said: O Isa, I am going to terminate the period of your stay (on earth) and cause you to ascend unto Me and purify you of those who disbelieve and make those who follow you above those who disbelieve to the day of resurrection; then to Me shall be your return, so l will decide between you concerning that in which you differed.

follows 003.054
YUSUFALI: And (the unbelievers) plotted and planned, and Allah too planned, and the best of planners is Allah.
PICKTHAL: And they (the disbelievers) schemed, and Allah schemed (against them): and Allah is the best of schemers.
SHAKIR: And they planned and Allah (also) planned, and Allah is the best of planners

What did they plot and plan? Jesus' crucifixion!!!

Jesus was crucified and He was raised up to sit at the right hand of GOD.

John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

IP Logged

myahya

Senior Member

Joined: 06 February 2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 222

Posted: 12 July 2008 at 3:54am

Believer:

YUSUFALI: Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.

“I will take thee and raise thee to Myself” doesn't show that Isa (as) is already died. Being taken and raised up to Allah swt doesn't show that it must have been done through death. In this verse the Arabic word “Motevaffik” is used for taking Isa (as) which is never employed for showing “death” in Quran. Instead, the word “Mowt” is used in Quran for “death” and the word “Ghatl” is used for “Killing”.

follows 003.054
YUSUFALI: And (the unbelievers) plotted and planned, and Allah too planned, and the best of planners is Allah.

What did they plot and plan? Jesus' crucifixion!!!

Even if we interpret as you said, it again does not show that they could perform what they planned. It only says that they had a plan and emphasizes that Allah swt is the best planner.

Following verses confirms what I am saying:

Quran (4:157): And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the messenger of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so(looks like Isa), and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture and they did not kill him for sure.

Quran (4:158): Nay! Allah took him up to Himself and Allah is mighty wise.

Edited by myahya - 12 July 2008 at 4:02am

IP Logged

robin

Senior Member
Senior Member

Joined: 17 May 2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 595

Posted: 14 July 2008 at 12:51am

Originally posted by myahya

minuteman: Very good. Jesus said that he would die. It was true and he died.

I am astonished why you insist that Isa (as) must be died. It can not be referred from Quran. His possible aliveness does not contradict any Islamic pillar or doctrine.

I Jesus Christ had not died, then Christianity would not of existed!

Romans 5:6-11

For, indeed, Christ, while we were yet weak, died for ungodly men at the appointed time. ⁷ For hardly will anyone die for a righteous [man]; indeed, for the good [man], perhaps, someone even dares to die. ⁸ But God recommends his own love to us in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. ⁹ Much more, therefore, since we have been declared righteous now by his blood, shall we be saved through him from wrath. ¹⁰ For if, when we were enemies, we became reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more, now that we have become reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. ¹¹ And not only that, but we are also exulting in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

IP Logged

minuteman

Senior Member
Senior Member

Joined: 25 March 2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1642

Posted: 14 July 2008 at 3:35am

Originally posted by myahya

minuteman: Very good. Jesus said that he would die. It was true and he died.

I am astonished why you insist that Isa (as) must be died. It can not be referred from Quran. His possible aliveness does not contradict any Islamic pillar or doctrine.

Yes, I do believe that all prophets have died including Isa a.s. But it would need some explanation. So please refer to the Quran and Hadith and try to find out if there is any verse of Quran which says that Jesus is alive. Or any Hadith which says that Jesus is still alive and he has not died. You can do that yourself. But if necessary, you may approach me. Thanks.

If any one is bad some one must suffer

IP Logged

myahya

Senior Member

Joined: 06 February 2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 222

Posted: 15 July 2008 at 1:35am

minuteman: So please refer to the Quran and Hadith and try to find out if there is any verse of Quran which says that Jesus is alive.

When Allah says in Quran that they did not kill or crucify Isa (as) but We took him up, it may mean one of two following interpretations:

First interpretation: Allah swt took only Isa’s spirit up (death)

Second interpretation: Allah swt took both Isa’s spirit and body up

In any kind of death (whether natural or not) Allah swt takes only the spirit up for everyone and it is not needed to mention it distinctly (but We took him up) for Isa (as). Even if they had killed Isa(as) Allah swt would have taken up his spirit, wouldn’t He? Therefore, to me the second one seems the right interpretation which means Allah swt took up both Isa’s spirit and body and he is not on the earth but where Allah swt took him up to there.

Anyway, thanks for the reply and I will look more into this concept.

Edited by myahya - 15 July 2008 at 1:37am

IP Logged

Nur_Ilahi

Senior Member
Senior Member

Joined: 19 January 2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1031

Posted: 15 July 2008 at 2:12am

Hi Minuteman.

Lately I had been very interested in Sufism. The pure Sufism that was taught by our Prophet Muhammad Salallahualaihiwasallam.

Sufism is more spiritual than physical. It teaches us to cleanse ourselves from the bad influence of Satan and how to cleanse the Nafs or the ego which is in ourselves. As we know there are 7 levels of Nafs, the lowest being the worst and the top most being the purest.

The great sufis that we read in our history books knows the power of the Ruh or spirit. As we know without our Ruh, we cannot do anything at all. We are useless. It is the Ruh that acts like electricity to our body that enable us to do anything that we like.

This Ruh once purified from Nafs and Satan could penetrate and envelope our physical body. I have read about Sufis that can walk on water, that could be present in two places at one time. In Isra' Mi'raj, our dear Prophet Muhammad was taken up in the night journey with Jibril alaihissalam. How did he do it? It is this same way. So was Jesus alaihissalam. These prophets of Allah, had got pure spirits that can penetrate and envelope the whole body.

In short, Jesus had not died, but is still in the presence of Allah and will return soon very soon indeed as the world now is very sick and need him to affirm the Oneness of God Almighty and unite the whole world under one banner of LA ILA HAILALLAH MUHAMMADURASULULLAH.

Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.

IP Logged

minuteman

Senior Member
Senior Member

Joined: 25 March 2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1642

Posted: 15 July 2008 at 12:38pm

I agree with your points regarding Sufism and the purification of the soul (Nafs). You are right. But I do not agree that Isa a.s. is alive now. That is because the Quran is clearly telling that his Ruh went up to Allah (that is forever, never to return to earth). That is the word Tawaffa. It has a meaning "To capture or take the soul" It is done in two ways. 1. During sleep. 2. During death.

When soul is taken away during sleep, it is returned back to the body (Al Quran 39:42) but when it is taken away during death it is withheld and not returned to body. The soul is taken and body is left behind.

IN the case of Isa .a.s. his soul has gone away to its high place forever. But you please see the Hadith too. If you know any Hadith that says Isa a.s. is still alive. I have not seen any.

It is not right that our prophet Muhammad has died and gone away for ever but a prophet of some other Ummah may be alive. That is not possible. No prophet is alive now. All prophets have passed away. (3:144)

Edited by minuteman - 15 July 2008 at 12:44pm

If any one is bad some one must suffer

IP Logged

	Active Topics Memberlist Calendar Search Help
	Register Login Old Forum

Interfaith Dialogue
IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Interfaith Dialogue

Topic: Jesus was crucified according to historia
	<< Prev Page of 69 Next >>

Author	Message
myahya Senior Member Joined: 06 February 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 222	Posted: 11 July 2008 at 3:16am
	*minuteman:* Very good. Jesus said that he would die. It was true and he died. I am astonished why you insist that Isa (as) must be died. It can not be referred from Quran. His possible aliveness does not contradict any Islamic pillar or doctrine.
	IP Logged

believer Guest Group Joined: 08 January 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1397	Posted: 11 July 2008 at 6:15am
	003.055 YUSUFALI: Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute. PICKTHAL: (And remember) when Allah said: O Jesus! Lo! I am gathering thee and causing thee to ascend unto Me, and am cleansing thee of those who disbelieve and am setting those who follow thee above those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then unto Me ye will (all) return, and I shall judge between you as to that wherein ye used to differ. SHAKIR: And when Allah said: O Isa, I am going to terminate the period of your stay (on earth) and cause you to ascend unto Me and purify you of those who disbelieve and make those who follow you above those who disbelieve to the day of resurrection; then to Me shall be your return, so l will decide between you concerning that in which you differed. follows 003.054 YUSUFALI: And (the unbelievers) plotted and planned, and Allah too planned, and the best of planners is Allah. PICKTHAL: And they (the disbelievers) schemed, and Allah schemed (against them): and Allah is the best of schemers. SHAKIR: And they planned and Allah (also) planned, and Allah is the best of planners What did they plot and plan? Jesus' crucifixion!!! Jesus was crucified and He was raised up to sit at the right hand of GOD.
	John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
	IP Logged

myahya Senior Member Joined: 06 February 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 222	Posted: 12 July 2008 at 3:54am
	Believer: YUSUFALI: Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute. “I will take thee and raise thee to Myself” doesn't show that Isa (as) is already died. Being taken and raised up to Allah swt doesn't show that it must have been done through death. In this verse the Arabic word “Motevaffik” is used for taking Isa (as) which is never employed for showing “death” in Quran. Instead, the word “Mowt” is used in Quran for “death” and the word “Ghatl” is used for “Killing”. follows 003.054 YUSUFALI: And (the unbelievers) plotted and planned, and Allah too planned, and the best of planners is Allah. *What did they plot and plan? Jesus' crucifixion!!!* Even if we interpret as you said, it again does not show that they could perform what they planned. It only says that they had a plan and emphasizes that Allah swt is the best planner. Following verses confirms what I am saying: Quran (4:157): And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the messenger of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so(looks like Isa), and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture and they did not kill him for sure. Quran (4:158): Nay! Allah took him up to Himself and Allah is mighty wise. Edited by myahya - 12 July 2008 at 4:02am
	IP Logged

robin Senior Member Joined: 17 May 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 595	Posted: 14 July 2008 at 12:51am
	*Originally posted by myahya* *minuteman:* Very good. Jesus said that he would die. It was true and he died. I am astonished why you insist that Isa (as) must be died. It can not be referred from Quran. His possible aliveness does not contradict any Islamic pillar or doctrine. I Jesus Christ had not died, then Christianity would not of existed! Romans 5:6-11 For, indeed, Christ, while we were yet weak, died for ungodly men at the appointed time. ⁷ For hardly will anyone die for a righteous [man]; indeed, for the good [man], perhaps, someone even dares to die. ⁸ But God recommends his own love to us in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. ⁹ Much more, therefore, since we have been declared righteous now by his blood, shall we be saved through him from wrath. ¹⁰ For if, when we were enemies, we became reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more, now that we have become reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. ¹¹ And not only that, but we are also exulting in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.
	IP Logged

minuteman Senior Member Joined: 25 March 2007 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1642	Posted: 14 July 2008 at 3:35am
	*Originally posted by myahya* *minuteman:* Very good. Jesus said that he would die. It was true and he died. I am astonished why you insist that Isa (as) must be died. It can not be referred from Quran. His possible aliveness does not contradict any Islamic pillar or doctrine. Yes, I do believe that all prophets have died including Isa a.s. But it would need some explanation. So please refer to the Quran and Hadith and try to find out if there is any verse of Quran which says that Jesus is alive. Or any Hadith which says that Jesus is still alive and he has not died. You can do that yourself. But if necessary, you may approach me. Thanks.
	If any one is bad some one must suffer
	IP Logged

myahya Senior Member Joined: 06 February 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 222	Posted: 15 July 2008 at 1:35am
	*minuteman:* So please refer to the Quran and Hadith and try to find out if there is any verse of Quran which says that Jesus is alive. When Allah says in Quran that they did not kill or crucify Isa (as) but We took him up, it may mean one of two following interpretations: First interpretation: Allah swt took only Isa’s spirit up (death) Second interpretation: Allah swt took both Isa’s spirit and body up In any kind of death (whether natural or not) Allah swt takes only the spirit up for everyone and it is not needed to mention it distinctly (but We took him up) for Isa (as). Even if they had killed Isa(as) Allah swt would have taken up his spirit, wouldn’t He? Therefore, to me the second one seems the right interpretation which means Allah swt took up both Isa’s spirit and body and he is not on the earth but where Allah swt took him up to there. Anyway, thanks for the reply and I will look more into this concept. Edited by myahya - 15 July 2008 at 1:37am
	IP Logged

Nur_Ilahi Senior Member Joined: 19 January 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1031	Posted: 15 July 2008 at 2:12am
	Hi Minuteman. Lately I had been very interested in Sufism. The pure Sufism that was taught by our Prophet Muhammad Salallahualaihiwasallam. Sufism is more spiritual than physical. It teaches us to cleanse ourselves from the bad influence of Satan and how to cleanse the Nafs or the ego which is in ourselves. As we know there are 7 levels of Nafs, the lowest being the worst and the top most being the purest. The great sufis that we read in our history books knows the power of the Ruh or spirit. As we know without our Ruh, we cannot do anything at all. We are useless. It is the Ruh that acts like electricity to our body that enable us to do anything that we like. This Ruh once purified from Nafs and Satan could penetrate and envelope our physical body. I have read about Sufis that can walk on water, that could be present in two places at one time. In Isra' Mi'raj, our dear Prophet Muhammad was taken up in the night journey with Jibril alaihissalam. How did he do it? It is this same way. So was Jesus alaihissalam. These prophets of Allah, had got pure spirits that can penetrate and envelope the whole body. In short, Jesus had not died, but is still in the presence of Allah and will return soon very soon indeed as the world now is very sick and need him to affirm the Oneness of God Almighty and unite the whole world under one banner of LA ILA HAILALLAH MUHAMMADURASULULLAH.
	Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.
	IP Logged

minuteman Senior Member Joined: 25 March 2007 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1642	Posted: 15 July 2008 at 12:38pm
	I agree with your points regarding Sufism and the purification of the soul (Nafs). You are right. But I do not agree that Isa a.s. is alive now. That is because the Quran is clearly telling that his Ruh went up to Allah (that is forever, never to return to earth). That is the word Tawaffa. It has a meaning "To capture or take the soul" It is done in two ways. 1. During sleep. 2. During death. When soul is taken away during sleep, it is returned back to the body (Al Quran 39:42) but when it is taken away during death it is withheld and not returned to body. The soul is taken and body is left behind. IN the case of Isa .a.s. his soul has gone away to its high place forever. But you please see the Hadith too. If you know any Hadith that says Isa a.s. is still alive. I have not seen any. It is not right that our prophet Muhammad has died and gone away for ever but a prophet of some other Ummah may be alive. That is not possible. No prophet is alive now. All prophets have passed away. (3:144) Edited by minuteman - 15 July 2008 at 12:44pm
	If any one is bad some one must suffer
	IP Logged