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truthfull
 
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Quote truthfull Replybullet Posted: 17 May 2014 at 6:41pm
Question

Was crucify as salvation or not

This will lead you to truth

You may ask how ?


Islam does not deny fact that there
Was crucify but it deny fact
That jesus was crucified

Why?!

Because crucify according to islam
Was conspiracy out of hate

This is what jews agree

Crucify in jews law is humiliation.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6IoCZO98CEs

They want to crucify jesus in order
To prove he is not prophet as he
Will confirm next,

What if I proved from bible crucify
Was conspiracy ?!


Luke 13:31-35
Worldwide English (New Testament) (WE)
31 At that time some Pharisees came to Jesus. They said to him, `Go away from here. Herod wants to kill you.'

32 He said, `Go and tell that fox, "I drive bad spirits out of people and heal people. I do it today and tomorrow. On the third day I will finish what I am doing."

33 But I must go on my way today, tomorrow, and the next day. A prophet of God cannot be killed outside of Jerusalem.




• islam / one who crucify resembled to jesus
Jews thought he is jesus but he was not

Allah say in quran :

And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah ." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.



Yes they are in doubt just like bible describe
Pilate


Mark 15

4 Then Pilate asked him, `Have you nothing to say? These people are bringing many complaints against you!'

5 But Jesus said nothing. Pilate was very much surprised about this.



• bible prove crucify should be done
As punishment and there is no mentioning
For salvation

Mark 15

Pilate asked them, `Then what shall I do with the man whom you call King of the Jews?'

13 They shouted back, `Nail him to a cross!'

14 Pilate then asked, `Why, what wrong thing has he done?' But they shouted even more, `Nail him to a cross!'

Read whole :

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+15


• no salvation

No one should die for other sins

DEU 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.







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Quote truthfull Replybullet Posted: 14 June 2014 at 9:44pm
Originally posted by Caringheart




Originally posted by truthfull


004:157 Maulana     
:
And for their saying: We have killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the messenger of Allah, and they killed him not, nor did they cause his death on the cross, but he was made to appear to them as such. And certainly those who differ therein are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge about it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for certain:
Greetings truthful,Is anyone really able to make sense out of the many things which Muhammad/allah said?I understand this verse to be a reference to the fact that, while it was the Jews that desired it, it was the Romans who actually ordered the crucifixion of Yshwe... so therefore who could really take claim, or credit, for the death of Yshwe... therefore 'it only appeared' ? as if the Jews had done it... and therefore people were in dispute on the matter.  If people were arguing whether it was the Jews or the Romans that killed Yshwe it seems to me that Muhammad may have misunderstood what the arguments were about.  He wasn't very clear in what he was trying to say.As I mentioned before jews are killer
Of prophets


Othere than Yshwe(known as Jesus) what deaths of prophets do you believe the Jews were responsible for?Shukran and salaam.Caringheart





Sorry for being late but usually I don't
Check answers

I am used to get alert about reply


Jews tend to crucify jesus nothing to do with Rome

Jesus Is Handed Over to Pilate by the Jewish Opponents (18:28-32 ...

Bible source :

http://www.biblegateway.com/resources/ivp-nt/Jesus-Is-Handed-Over-Pilate-Jewish

On that period of time Rome were pagan

And even christian were not excit

Here timothy ( Rome) convert to judaism
And he. Get circumscied

That is prove rome were pagan

Acts 16:3 ►
Parallel Verses
New International Version
Paul wanted to take him along on the journey, so he circumcised him because of the Jews who lived in that area, for they all knew that his father was a Greek.


Even there emperor were no christian nor jews

Called constantine

He come with idea jesus god through nicaea council

Nicaea in Bithynia by the Roman Emperor Constantine I in AD 325. This first ecumenical council was the first effort to attain consensus in the church through an assembly representing all of Christendom.[5]

Its main accomplishments were settlement of the Christological issue of the nature of the Son of God and his relationship to God the Father,[3] the construction of the first part of the Creed of Nicaea,

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea

Many non muslim wrote about this event
One of them called Walter nigg in his book the heretics


• jesus him self waas called as king of jews
He was not called as king of christian

As Pilate him self. Asked him to make sure
If he is jesus or not

Mark 15

As I mentioned above

Jews saying we killed jesuss

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=M539PgDjbas

So there is no. Salvation

Even jews. Are waiting Massaih prophet not god


Page related to jews


JESUS DID NOT FULFILL THE MESSIANIC PROPHECIES

http://www.simpletoremember.com/articles/a/jewsandjesus/


• read mark 15 ve luke 13:31
It is talking about crucify as conspiracy

Hebrew 5 say jesus was asking allah to save
Him

Hebrew 5 :

Jesus[a] offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to him who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverence. 8 Although he was a son, he learned obedience through what he suffered. 9 And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him, 10 being designated by God a high priest after the order of Melchizedek.

Prophet muhamd didn't come to argue
He just illustrated truth for people

There was conspiracy to kill jesus
But Allah did save him

He went to heaven

Man that was crucified
Turned look like jesus
He is not as miracle

They thought he is jesus but he wasn't

Jesus already said he is prophet
So if they crucify him
There is no chance to go back to life
Because human don't return once they die

Conspiracy to caught jesus in old testament

Psalm 91

I will say of the Lord, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust.

3 Surely he shall deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, and from the noisome pestilence.


•her is talking those who trying
To catch him will fall in traap they made
By turning look like jesus

Psalm 91

Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked.

• angel will take to heaven
And nothing hurt him and he will live long
Until his return

There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling.

Psalm 91
11 For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways.

12 They shall bear thee up in their hands, lest thou dash thy foot against a stone.

13 Thou shalt tread upon the lion and adder: the young lion and the dragon shalt thou trample under feet.

14 Because he hath set his love upon me, therefore will I deliver him: I will set him on high, because he hath known my name.

15 He shall call upon me, and I will answer him: I will be with him in trouble; I will deliver him, and honour him.

16 With long life

• I don't say anything from my
Words

So please don't ask if
I am bringing words from
My own incilation

it is bible not me

Those are ancient jews

Jews cutting head of pabtista john

Matthew 14:8 ►
Parallel Verses
New International Version
Prompted by her mother, she said, "Give me here on a platter the head of John the Baptist."


Please don't take it personal

I am just telling what happened on that period of time
From bible not from quran

Not my words.

Sorry I don't mean to hurt your feeling

But this what mentioned

It was mentioned jews rebel moses massage

Excouds 32

And the LORD said unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves:

8 They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them: they have made them a molten calf, and have worshipped it, and have sacrificed thereunto, and said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which have brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.












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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 08 July 2014 at 12:54pm
Originally posted by honeto

We Muslims more so celebrate lives of the prophets not their deaths.

Greetings Hasan,

Is this entirely true?  Isn't Ali celebrated and remembered as much because of the way in which he died as anything else?
(forgive me if this is a Shia and not Sunni tradition... perhaps you can clarify - Shukran)

asalaam,
Caringheart
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 08 July 2014 at 3:37pm
Originally posted by Caringheart

Originally posted by honeto

We Muslims more so celebrate lives of the prophets not their deaths.

Greetings Hasan,

Is this entirely true?  Isn't Ali celebrated and remembered as much because of the way in which he died as anything else?
(forgive me if this is a Shia and not Sunni tradition... perhaps you can clarify - Shukran)

asalaam,
Caringheart


Well for one thing, Hazrat Ali (may Allah be pleased with him) was not a prophet.  Both Sunnis and Shias agree on that, but Shias do emphasize the deaths of Ali and his sons, especially Hussein (may Allah be pleased with him). 


Edited by islamispeace - 08 July 2014 at 3:37pm
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Quote Power of GOD Replybullet Posted: 14 July 2014 at 5:17pm
Originally posted by honeto

believer,
the issue before us as you started was, in your words, "Jesus was crucified according to historia"
you  heard Islamic understanding on that issue. You have right to keep your and we to our understanding. You offered quotes in your argument, we provided ours. You are not forced to accept views and proves we provided, nor are we bound to accept yours.
I think each one of us can see and decide for ourself.
You tried to use Abraham's willingness to sacrifice his beloved son in the way of God as a comparasion here even though it does not fit here as such.
 
God tests us and it is easy to give in the way of God what we don't need, but to give in his cause something that we love so much is harder. So the test for Abraham was to give in the way of God what he loved the most. Remember that Abraham did not have any children until he was very old. When God called him to service, he asked God to give him a son. God granted his request and blessed him with a son whom he loved and who was deerest to him. Now God tests Abraham for his faith in Him by asking Abraham to sacrifice his beloved son. Abraham's faith did not shake and he was ready to offer what he loved the most. When he was about to execute his promise, God asked him to hold on, stop, as Abraham triumped in his true believe in God. Thus God accepted his willingness to sacrifice what was the most dear to Abraham. 
It was a test of faith, it was not a ransom of any kind for anything as you understand it when you said:  "Who was the victim?  What ransom?
 
Further you wrote:  "I know that the Quran does not say what Muslims believe.  GOD did take Jesus up to Him, GOD ended His time on earth.  The Jews believe they had control of the situation.  Mohammad is saying that the Jews did not have the power over Jesus in killing Him- GOD did. 
I don't know why you say that. We beleive what Quran tells us, it is you who don't believe what Quran says, right.
You are right that God did not let Jews to do what they thought they have control over, killing Jesus. God raised him up to Himself to show them who is in control. Here is the quote that states that: 
The Quran 4:157"That they said in (boast),  "we killed Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of God-,
but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, And those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no certian knowledge but only conjucture to follow. For of a surety they killed him not."
 
Hasan
If you must think logically why would it be mentioned in the Quran that they wanted to kill Christ Jesus why do they wanted to kill him if they didn't kill him nor crucified him why wouldn't Allah just mentioned that he ascended him in to heaven if the gospel was wrong so do you want to tell me God will jeopordized his own prophecies and turn it into a lie so if it did not happen why was it necessary to worry about in Muhammad's time.
Some where along the line Muhammad must have made up his own words that he have heard from the christians in his time God will not repeat something that wasn't supposed to hapened that should have happened that couldn't happen cause he wanted it to, which was a big misconception of his prophecies.
Okay for all that years 570 years the Christians must have discover along the line that something is wrong in their scriptures even with human errors they could have found something wrong and must have made it public some how.
 
The big issue about this between Muhammad and Jesus is why was Jesus without sin and then God send another prophet to create havoc and anarchy among his own people who was religiously uninformed pagans who hasn't got a clue about religion and forced them to accept his religion which he proclaimed is from Allah his god it does not make sense one prophet without sin and another prophet full of sin and hate if you can't see something wrong with this picture then its your problem.      


Edited by Power of GOD - 14 July 2014 at 7:03pm
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Quote Power of GOD Replybullet Posted: 22 July 2014 at 2:38am
Originally posted by honeto

Larry,
can you tell me if any of that relates to what we are talking about or to the subject?

How is the weather on your end by the way? LOL!
Hasan
 
Why wasn't John the baptist life not saved by God he was also prophet in Jesus's time he saved Jesus in the Quran why not John the baptist one Muhammad's countless errors.
 

One day, the angel Gabriel appeared to Zechariah. Zechariah was terrified, but the angel said to him,

"Don't be afraid, Zechariah! For I have come to tell you that God has heard your prayer, and your wife, Elizabeth, will bear you a son! And you are to name him John. You will both have great joy and gladness at his birth, and many will rejoice with you. For he will be one of the Lord's great men. He must never touch wine or hard liquor - and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from before his birth! And he will persuade many a Jew to turn to the Lord his God. He will be a man of rugged spirit and power like Elijah, the prophet of old; and he will precede the coming of the Messiah, preparing the people for his arrival." (TLB, Luke 1:13-17)

Zechariah should have had faith in the angel and given thanks to God for the good news he received, but Zechariah was not convinced. He told the angel that he and Elizabeth were too old to ever have a child. For his irreverent lack of faith, the angel told Zechariah he would be unable to speak until the time John was born!

Everything the angel said came true. Zechariah was unable to speak, and Elizabeth did become pregnant. It was not until after John was born that Zechariah was able to speak again.

 
'Zecheriah, We bring you the good news of the birth of a son whose name shall be John, one whose namesake We never created before.' He said: ‘My Lord! How can I have a boy when my wife is barren and I have reached an extremely old age?' He answered: ‘So shall it be.' Your Lord says: ‘It is easy for Me', and then added: ‘For beyond doubt, I created you earlier when you were nothing' (Quran 19:7-9).

"Zecheriah exclaimed: ‘My Lord! How shall I have a son when old age has overtaken me and my wife is barren?' He said: ‘Thus shall it be; Allah does what He wills'"(Quran 3:40).

With the birth of John, Allah granted Zecheriah his desire for an heir.

"And We bestowed favor upon Zecheriah, when he cried to his Lord: ‘Lord! Leave me not solitary [without any issue]. You are the best Inheritor.' So We accepted his prayer and bestowed upon him John, and We made his wife fit (to bear a child). Verily they hastened in doing good works and called upon Us with longing and fear, and humbled themselves to Us" (Quran 21:89-90).

The beautiful qualities of John

Allah did not just miraculously grant Zecheriah a son. He made this child a blessing for his parents and beautiful in character. Prophet John is described in the Quran as chaste and righteous.

"Then Zecheriah prayed to his Lord: ‘O Lord! Grant me from Yourself out of Your grace the gift of a goodly offspring, for indeed You alone heed all Prayers. As he stood praying in the sanctuary, the angels called out to him: ‘Allah gives you good tidings of John, who shall confirm a command of Allah, shall be outstanding among men, utterly chaste, and a Prophet from among the righteous" (Quran 3:38-39).

At that time Herod the tetrarch heard the reports about Jesus,  and he said to his attendants, “This is John the Baptist; he has risen from the dead! That is why miraculous powers are at work in him.”

 Now Herod had arrested John and bound him and put him in prison because of Herodias, his brother Philip’s wife, for John had been saying to him: “It is not lawful for you to have her.”  Herod wanted to kill John, but he was afraid of the people, because they considered John a prophet.

 On Herod’s birthday the daughter of Herodias danced for the guests and pleased Herod so much that he promised with an oath to give her whatever she asked. Prompted by her mother, she said, “Give me here on a platter the head of John the Baptist.” The king was distressed, but because of his oaths and his dinner guests, he ordered that her request be granted  and had John beheaded in the prison.  His head was brought in on a platter and given to the girl, who carried it to her mother.  John’s disciples came and took his body and buried it. Then they went and told Jesus.



Edited by Power of GOD - 24 July 2014 at 12:37am
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Quote Power of GOD Replybullet Posted: 27 July 2014 at 3:49pm
The Qur’an states that Allah deceived people into believing that Jesus had died on the cross. According to the Qur’an, Jesus was able to convert at least some Jews to Islam. But we know from history that Jesus’ early followers became convinced of his death and resurrection. Hence, the obvious reason that there were no Muslims after Jesus ascended into heaven is that all of Jesus’ followers came to believe that he died on the cross and rose from the dead. And where did they get this idea? According to Islam, the idea that Jesus died on the cross was started by Allah
 
What they said (in boast), “We killed Christ Jesus The son of Mary, The Messenger of Allah”—But they killed him not, Nor crucified him, But so it was made To appear to them, And those who differ Therein are full of doubts, With no (certain) knowledge, But only conjecture to follow, For of a surety They killed him not—Nay, Allah raised him up Unto Himself; and Allah Is Exalted in Power, Wise.
 
Even if we allow that Allah’s only goal was to deceive the people who wanted to kill Jesus, it is clear that the disciples also fell for Allah’s deception. So who is responsible for the Christian belief that Jesus died on the cross? If Islam is correct, God started this idea when he decided to trick Jesus’ enemies into thinking that they had killed Jesus. This leads to even more problems. If the deception of the disciples was unintentional, then we must conclude that God didn’t realize that he was about to start the largest false religion in the world. If it was intentional, then God is in the business of starting false religions. Therefore, the God of Islam is either dreadfully ignorant or maliciously deceptive.

Muhammad’s position also means that Jesus was the greatest failure in the history of the prophets. He spent 33 years preaching (again, he began preaching Islamic theology at birth), yet shortly after his death, the children of Israel were divided into two broad camps. Those who believed his message became Christians, all of whom were guilty of the worst sin imaginable (shirk), while those who rejected his message were guilty of rejecting one of God’s greatest messengers. Thus, whether people believed in Jesus or rejected him, everyone would ultimately be condemned and cast into the hellfire. It’s strange, then, that Muslims consider Jesus to be one of the greatest prophets ever. It seems that he should have been able to win at least one lasting convert to Islam. But he didn’t. Further, a true prophet of Islam should have warned his followers not to turn away from Islam by falling for God’s deception.

 But Jesus never got that message across. Indeed, millions of people from around the world now refuse to accept Islam because they believe that Jesus died on the cross for their sins, a teaching that goes back to a deceptive God and an incompetent Messiah.
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Quote Power of GOD Replybullet Posted: 27 July 2014 at 3:55pm
Allah Spreads the False Religion He Accidentally Started

If you follow the teachings of Islam through to their logical conclusion, we see that God either intentionally or unintentionally started Christianity. But the Qur’an doesn’t stop there. Instead of correcting the mess he made, Allah took Christianity to the next level.

 The Qur’an states that Allah helped spread Christianity. Once God had caused belief in Jesus death and resurrection, he then worked diligently to aid the Christians in spreading their false message:

O you who believe! be helpers (in the cause) of Allah, as [Jesus] son of Marium said to (his) disciples: Who are my helpers in the cause of Allah? The disciples said: We are helpers (in the cause) of Allah. So a party of the children of Israel believed and another party disbelieved; then We aided those who believed against their enemy, and they became uppermost.

This verse is extremely important, for it means that Allah helped the followers of Jesus against the Jews who rejected Jesus, and that these followers “became uppermost.” So who were these followers of Jesus who became stronger than the Jews? The only people in history who fit such a description are orthodox Christians, who believe in Jesus’ death, resurrection, and divinity. In other words, Muslims can’t claim here that Jesus’ message was corrupted and that the true Gospel was wiped out, because that clearly isn’t the group that the Qur’an refers to in this passage. Even if there was a group of first century Muslim-Christians, this group never gained an upper hand over anyone. Indeed, they must have been snuffed out immediately. The only group of Jesus’ followers that ever became strong enough to overshadow the Jews was composed of Christians, once Christianity had spread throughout the Roman Empire. These Christians believed in the foundational doctrines that Christians hold even today. Yet, according to the Qur’an, Allah helped these people rise to power!

How, then, did Christianity spread and become the dominant world religion? It spread by the power of Allah! And who started the Christian message about Jesus’ death on the cross? God invented this message! Even non-Christian historians are convinced that Jesus’ death is one of history’s best-established facts. Where did historians get this idea? They got it from God, who tricked so many people into believing in Jesus’ death that we now have tons of historical evidence for this event. Since there are roughly two billion Christians on earth at the present moment, it seems that Jesus and God are responsible for starting the only religion in the world that overshadows Islam.

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