IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum: Jesus was crucified according to historia

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robin

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Posted: 10 June 2008 at 9:45am

Originally posted by Nur_Ilahi

HI Believer,

Jesus is a word of God, God said "be" and then Jesus was created, Quran 19:9.

"He said, "Thus said your Lord: `It is easy for Me to do. I created you before that, and you were nothing.' "

And according to the Bible:-

Revelation 3:14

"And to the angel of the congregation in La·o·di·ce´a write: These are the things that the Amen [another name for Jesus] says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God,

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robin

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Posted: 10 June 2008 at 9:46am

Originally posted by honeto

Originally posted by believer

As I understand in Hinduism all the humans, animals, gods, and objects are one divine being

Incarnations of the One God.

Hasan

Just like the ancient Egyptians.

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honeto
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Posted: 10 June 2008 at 6:30pm

Originally posted by robin

Originally posted by Nur_Ilahi

HI Believer,

Jesus is a word of God, God said "be" and then Jesus was created, Quran 19:9.

"He said, "Thus said your Lord: `It is easy for Me to do. I created you before that, and you were nothing.' "

And according to the Bible:-

Revelation 3:14

Robin,

I don't agree with your interpretation in the above quote. Whoever wrote and rewrote "Revelation" seem to have used words loosely and disrespectfully in my opinion.

Take for example:

"Revelation 1:5And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, "

........14His (Jesus') head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;

........16And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength. "

Hasan

39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"

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robin

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Posted: 11 June 2008 at 1:24am

Originally posted by honeto

Originally posted by robin

Originally posted by Nur_Ilahi

HI Believer,

Jesus is a word of God, God said "be" and then Jesus was created, Quran 19:9.

"He said, "Thus said your Lord: `It is easy for Me to do. I created you before that, and you were nothing.' "

And according to the Bible:-

Revelation 3:14

Robin,

I don't agree with your interpretation in the above quote. Whoever wrote and rewrote "Revelation" seem to have used words loosely and disrespectfully in my opinion.

Take for example:

MEANS THE FIRST TO BE RESSURECTED TO IMMORTAL LIFE!

........14His (Jesus') head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;

Means that he is sharp, alert, as he searches, tests, or expresses indignation on God behalf

........16And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

a sharp, long two-edged sword." What a fitting feature as Jesus is the one appointed to pronounce Jehovah’s final judgments against His enemies. Decisive utterances from his mouth result in the execution of all wicked ones.—Revelation 19:13, 15.

Hasan

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honeto
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Posted: 11 June 2008 at 4:13pm

Robin,

we all are good at explaining what things mean when they directly don't look good and are not in agreement with our belief, we try to find their hidden meanings the way we want them to sound like, don't we?

To you it may mean what you have said but to me it means what it reads.

"Revelation 1:5And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, ............"

My second quote:

"........16And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

you have tried to give your interpretation, but the fact is that its John who is describing what he saw:

I will quote the verses that will describe this a bit more:

:9 I, John, your brother and companion ............10 On the Lord's Day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet, 11which said: "Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea."

12 I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13and among the lampstands was someone "like a son of man,"dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest. 14His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. 15His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters. 16In his right hand he held seven stars, and out of his mouth came a sharp double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance. "

I can understand as it reads, "his face was like sun" we all use some times such expressions, as it says, 'like'

But when the person writing describes what he sees: "and out of his mouth came a sharp double-edge sword"??

As I said before, loose language and words are used here as in many parts of the Bible, and I believe that God does not use loose words, even when He inspires His servents.

Hasan

Edited by honeto - 11 June 2008 at 4:18pm

39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"

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believer
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Posted: 12 June 2008 at 8:10pm

Hebrews 4

12For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

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honeto
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Posted: 17 June 2008 at 11:29am

believer,

in your quote the writer is comparing, 'word of God' to double-edged sword. And I understand it fine, because it uses the words 'sharper than'.

but what I have quoted above and I will quote again does not say the same. It is not a comparsion rather a narration of what John saw in a vision. Remember he is not doing any comparision of any kind here he is simply saying what he saw, let me quote it again:

12 I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13and among the lampstands was someone "like a son of man,"dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest. ......................... 16In his right hand he held seven stars, and out of his mouth came a sharp double-edged sword. ..........."

Read again, and you will see that John is not comparing anything here rather saying what he saw in the vision.

Hasan

Edited by honeto - 17 June 2008 at 11:34am

39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"

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believer
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Posted: 18 June 2008 at 8:51pm

honeto -

Are you saying you believe it is an actual sword coming out of the "son of man's" mouth?

That a vision is strictly literal?

Edited by believer - 18 June 2008 at 8:52pm

John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

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honeto
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Posted: 19 June 2008 at 11:34am

believer,

its not about how you take a verse, it is about what its saying. We can each interpret and understand about God making the Earth in "six days" differently, I understand that.

But here is a man, John who is quoted to have been describing what he saw, remember he says: hair white like wool, as white as snow , that I can understand he is just comparing the hair to snow or wool, understood.

But he does not compare, when he describe what he saw further : "and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword"

To me this description of John's vision of what he saw and described is not how God is but with these words I see what John is describing literally.

That's my understanding.

Hasan

Edited by honeto - 19 June 2008 at 11:34am

39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"

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believer
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Posted: 19 June 2008 at 2:03pm

OK, You are saying you believe it is an actual sword coming out of the "son of man's" mouth?

honeto- I find that very interesting. That is very interesting!!

Do you see how the sword might mean a judgement spoken by GOD?

Do you own a Bible? If you look at the verse and see the letter aboove the verse mine happens to have a small b, then look at the center column you will see where that phrase is used in another part of Scriputure. These are the verses listed with that verse-

Isaiah 1

20 but if you resist and rebel,
you will be devoured by the sword."
For the mouth of the LORD has spoken.

Isaiah 49

2 He made my mouth like a sharpened sword,
       in the shadow of his hand he hid me;
       he made me into a polished arrow
       and concealed me in his quiver

Hebrews 4

12For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

Revelation 2

12"To the angel of the church in Pergamum write:
These are the words of him who has the sharp, double-edged sword

...

16Repent therefore! Otherwise, I will soon come to you and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth

Revelation 19

15Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. "He will rule them with an iron scepter." He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty.

...

21The rest of them were killed with the sword that came out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.

John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

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Topic: Jesus was crucified according to historia
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Author	Message
robin Senior Member Joined: 17 May 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 595	Posted: 10 June 2008 at 9:45am
	*Originally posted by Nur_Ilahi* HI Believer, Jesus is a word of God, God said "be" and then Jesus was created, Quran 19:9. "He said, "Thus said your Lord: `It is easy for Me to do. I created you before that, and you were nothing.' " And according to the Bible:- Revelation 3:14 "And to the angel of the congregation in La·o·di·ce´a write: These are the things that the Amen [another name for Jesus] says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God,
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robin Senior Member Joined: 17 May 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 595	Posted: 10 June 2008 at 9:46am
	*Originally posted by honeto* *Originally posted by believer* As I understand in Hinduism all the humans, animals, gods, and objects are one divine being Incarnations of the One God. Hasan Just like the ancient Egyptians.
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honeto Male Islam Senior Member Joined: 20 March 2008 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 1018	Posted: 10 June 2008 at 6:30pm
	*Originally posted by robin* *Originally posted by Nur_Ilahi* HI Believer, Jesus is a word of God, God said "be" and then Jesus was created, Quran 19:9. "He said, "Thus said your Lord: `It is easy for Me to do. I created you before that, and you were nothing.' " And according to the Bible:- Revelation 3:14 "And to the angel of the congregation in La·o·di·ce´a write: These are the things that the Amen [another name for Jesus] says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God, Robin, I don't agree with your interpretation in the above quote. Whoever wrote and rewrote "Revelation" seem to have used words loosely and disrespectfully in my opinion. Take for example: "Revelation 1:5And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, " ........14His (Jesus') head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; ........16And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength. " Hasan
	39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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robin Senior Member Joined: 17 May 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 595	Posted: 11 June 2008 at 1:24am
	*Originally posted by honeto* *Originally posted by robin* *Originally posted by Nur_Ilahi* HI Believer, Jesus is a word of God, God said "be" and then Jesus was created, Quran 19:9. "He said, "Thus said your Lord: `It is easy for Me to do. I created you before that, and you were nothing.' " And according to the Bible:- Revelation 3:14 "And to the angel of the congregation in La·o·di·ce´a write: These are the things that the Amen [another name for Jesus] says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God, Robin, I don't agree with your interpretation in the above quote. Whoever wrote and rewrote "Revelation" seem to have used words loosely and disrespectfully in my opinion. Take for example: "Revelation 1:5And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, " MEANS THE FIRST TO BE RESSURECTED TO IMMORTAL LIFE! ........14His (Jesus') head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; Means that he is sharp, alert, as he searches, tests, or expresses indignation on God behalf ........16And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength. " a sharp, long two-edged sword." What a fitting feature as Jesus is the one appointed to pronounce Jehovah’s final judgments against His enemies. Decisive utterances from his mouth result in the execution of all wicked ones.—Revelation 19:13, 15. Hasan
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honeto Male Islam Senior Member Joined: 20 March 2008 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 1018	Posted: 11 June 2008 at 4:13pm
	Robin, we all are good at explaining what things mean when they directly don't look good and are not in agreement with our belief, we try to find their hidden meanings the way we want them to sound like, don't we? To you it may mean what you have said but to me it means what it reads. "Revelation 1:5And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, ............" My second quote: "........16And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength. you have tried to give your interpretation, but the fact is that its John who is describing what he saw: I will quote the verses that will describe this a bit more: :9 I, John, your brother and companion ............10 On the Lord's Day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet, 11which said: "Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea." 12 I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13and among the lampstands was someone "like a son of man,"dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest. 14His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. 15His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters. 16In his right hand he held seven stars, and out of his mouth came a sharp double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance. " I can understand as it reads, "his face was like sun" we all use some times such expressions, as it says, 'like' But when the person writing describes what he sees: "and out of his mouth came a sharp double-edge sword"?? As I said before, loose language and words are used here as in many parts of the Bible, and I believe that God does not use loose words, even when He inspires His servents. Hasan Edited by honeto - 11 June 2008 at 4:18pm
	39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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believer Male Christian Senior Member Joined: 08 January 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1397	Posted: 12 June 2008 at 8:10pm
	Hebrews 4 12For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.
	John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
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honeto Male Islam Senior Member Joined: 20 March 2008 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 1018	Posted: 17 June 2008 at 11:29am
	believer, in your quote the writer is comparing, 'word of God' to double-edged sword. And I understand it fine, because it uses the words 'sharper than'. but what I have quoted above and I will quote again does not say the same. It is not a comparsion rather a narration of what John saw in a vision. Remember he is not doing any comparision of any kind here he is simply saying what he saw, let me quote it again: :9 I, John, your brother and companion ............10 On the Lord's Day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet, 11which said: "Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea." 12 I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13and among the lampstands was someone "like a son of man,"dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest. ......................... 16In his right hand he held seven stars, and out of his mouth came a sharp double-edged sword. ..........." Read again, and you will see that John is not comparing anything here rather saying what he saw in the vision. Hasan Edited by honeto - 17 June 2008 at 11:34am
	39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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believer Male Christian Senior Member Joined: 08 January 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1397	Posted: 18 June 2008 at 8:51pm
	honeto - Are you saying you believe it is an actual sword coming out of the "son of man's" mouth? That a vision is strictly literal? Edited by believer - 18 June 2008 at 8:52pm
	John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
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honeto Male Islam Senior Member Joined: 20 March 2008 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 1018	Posted: 19 June 2008 at 11:34am
	believer, its not about how you take a verse, it is about what its saying. We can each interpret and understand about God making the Earth in "six days" differently, I understand that. But here is a man, John who is quoted to have been describing what he saw, remember he says: hair white like wool, as white as snow , that I can understand he is just comparing the hair to snow or wool, understood. But he does not compare, when he describe what he saw further : "and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword" To me this description of John's vision of what he saw and described is not how God is but with these words I see what John is describing literally. That's my understanding. Hasan Edited by honeto - 19 June 2008 at 11:34am
	39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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believer Male Christian Senior Member Joined: 08 January 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1397	Posted: 19 June 2008 at 2:03pm
	OK, You are saying you believe it is an actual sword coming out of the "son of man's" mouth? honeto- I find that very interesting. That is very interesting!! Do you see how the sword might mean a judgement spoken by GOD? Do you own a Bible? If you look at the verse and see the letter aboove the verse mine happens to have a small b, then look at the center column you will see where that phrase is used in another part of Scriputure. These are the verses listed with that verse- Isaiah 1 20 but if you resist and rebel, you will be devoured by the sword." For the mouth of the LORD has spoken. Isaiah 49 2 He made my mouth like a sharpened sword, in the shadow of his hand he hid me; he made me into a polished arrow and concealed me in his quiver Hebrews 4 12For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. Revelation 2 12"To the angel of the church in Pergamum write: These are the words of him who has the sharp, double-edged sword ... 16Repent therefore! Otherwise, I will soon come to you and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth Revelation 19 15Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. "He will rule them with an iron scepter." He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. ... 21The rest of them were killed with the sword that came out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.
	John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
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