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honeto
 
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 02 October 2012 at 3:03pm
Originally posted by Kish


Originally posted by honeto

Second, Muslims claim that God did not let the Jews kill Jesus (pbuh), we do not say that he was not put on the cross. Those are two different things.
You also do not say that your Prophet WAS put on the cross (stake) to die as the other prophets and scriptures say he would. Perhaps you forgot what the original topic was so here it is again Hasan and ice, was it Jesus that said and I quote you . . .
Originally posted by honeto

Jesus indeed cried to his Lord as "Allah" which is spelled in modern Bibles as "Eloh" with "i" which stands for "Oh" in Jesus' native Aramaic.
Are you now agreeing that it was Jesus hanging there crying out "Eloh" or Allah and not an imposter like Judas which Muslims assume? It's either yes, no or you don't know. Read your own quote again, it sounds like you are agreeing after all since you are saying it was Jesus words, right? Or do you think it was Jesus words and Judas body?




Kish,
please learn to read. I have answered all what you keep asking again, have you run out of objection so you keep repeating the same.
The Bible quote I am using to show you is for you who only take Bible as authentic. For me it is a man made version of what God revealed. It is no longer direct word of God, since it's original text do not exist. And what is left of it with us is only copy of a copy or part of a part and so on. Thus we cannot take it as a guide to govern our lives. Simple as that.
Since you still see it as a guide and believe it to be so, I would imagine you will be sincere in that! If you are, it is only going against your own argument in this case.
We saw that according to it, Jesus did indeed called God 'Allah'. And that is only to show those of you who deny that God is same as Allah. Not only Muslims serve and worship Allah, but according to you book even Jesus did. And we Muslims claim all of God's prophets did before.
Hasan

Edited by honeto - 02 October 2012 at 3:09pm
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Quote Kish Replybullet Posted: 07 October 2012 at 9:00pm
Originally posted by honeto

We saw that according to it, Jesus did indeed called God 'Allah'.


Why are Muslims like yourself afraid to answer the question if this is your belief?
Was it Jesus or Judas on the cross (stake) that said these words?

The more you try to avoid answering the question the more convince Christians and others are that the Quran and Muhammad was not sent from the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. And that Allah the god of the Arabs is not the same God of the Jews (YHWH=Jehovah) the Torah, the Prophets and the Gospel but an imposter.

But, let me say this it is only ONE creator which we both agree. But be very clear on what I'm about to say, the god of your Quran IS NOT the same God of the Holy Scriptures. It really that simple.

For this very reason the Quran will always be rejected by Jews, Christians and most of mankind. And the Quran will always overwhelmingly contradict the Bible and it's teachings although it is the Quran that needs the Bible but never ever the other way around. On the other-hand the Old Testament needs the New Testament and the New Testament needs the Old Testament.

So do the math: If the Quran or Allah is not the same God of the Bible and the God of the bible Jehovah (YHWH) never sent Muhammad then who was Muhammad really sent by? Muslims say Allah, I suggest you find out who this Allah of the Arabs was before he got a hold of Muhammad.

 





Edited by Kish - 07 October 2012 at 9:02pm
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Larry
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Quote Larry Replybullet Posted: 08 October 2012 at 4:24pm
Originally posted by honeto

Originally posted by Kish


Originally posted by honeto

Second, Muslims claim that God did not let the Jews kill Jesus (pbuh), we do not say that he was not put on the cross. Those are two different things.
You also do not say that your Prophet WAS put on the cross (stake) to die as the other prophets and scriptures say he would. Perhaps you forgot what the original topic was so here it is again Hasan and ice, was it Jesus that said and I quote you . . .
Originally posted by honeto

Jesus indeed cried to his Lord as "Allah" which is spelled in modern Bibles as "Eloh" with "i" which stands for "Oh" in Jesus' native Aramaic.
Are you now agreeing that it was Jesus hanging there crying out "Eloh" or Allah and not an imposter like Judas which Muslims assume? It's either yes, no or you don't know. Read your own quote again, it sounds like you are agreeing after all since you are saying it was Jesus words, right? Or do you think it was Jesus words and Judas body?




Kish,
please learn to read. I have answered all what you keep asking again, have you run out of objection so you keep repeating the same.

   "Repeating the same" points? Sounds like a perfect description of your "points", Hasan. You simply repeat your beliefs time and again expecting others to accept "your" beliefs and acknowledge that the Quran is truly the Word of God, which it is not.

The Bible quote I am using to show you is for you who only take Bible as authentic.

   So, the Biblical "quote" you make is taken from the Bible ONLY because Kish believes in that Bible? Another example of your "selective" use of Biblical quotes, if it supports Islam and the Quran it is accepted as absolute proof of the authenticity of Islam and the Qur'an, but, if the Bible CONTRADICTS what Islam and the Qur'an believe, which happens VERY OFTEN, then that Biblical text is simply dismissed as "corrupt."?

For me it is a man made version of what God revealed. It is no longer direct word of God, since it's original text do not exist. And what is left of it with us is only copy of a copy or part of a part and so on. Thus we cannot take it as a guide to govern our lives. Simple as that.

   Sorry, Hasan, but it is not "Simple as that" to reject the Bible, the Old and New Testaments correlate almost perfectly, the only text that has serious differences with both the Old and New Testaments is the Qur'an. And speaking of man-made, the Qur'an itself was edited and finalized into it's present form by Uthman, who used "Hafsah's Codex" as his guide in making four "perfect copies."

   This same codex was later burned by order of Muslim authorities.

   And, now we see that the "original text" of the Qur'an does not exist either. It was deliberately destroyed by Muslim authorities, even though Uthman used "Hafsah's Codex when he "standardized" the Qur'an and then returned the ORIGINAL Qur'an to Hafsah, unharmed. Very strange to see a religion destroy it's original holy text...that is, unless there was something to hide. But you can continue to claim that the only differences between Hafsah's Codex and Uthman's standardization, were vowel and diacritical markings. So I guess being a "copy of a copy" applies to the Qur'an as well.

   But, since the original Qur'an was deliberately destroyed by Muslims, there is nothing that can be proven either pro or con on the argument that the Qur'an as it exists today is the same Qur'an that was preserved in Hafsah's ORIGINAL Qur'an. Evidently there were no problems in Hafsah's Codex as this exact codex was used to compile the "true" Qur'an.

   So I guess this means that Muslims can accept and use the Qur'an, which is a copy of a copy, to govern your lives? Because if Uthman's standardization came straight from Uafsah's Codex, why would the original Qur'an need to be destroyed?

Since you still see it as a guide and believe it to be so, I would imagine you will be sincere in that! If you are, it is only going against your own argument in this case.
We saw that according to it, Jesus did indeed called God 'Allah'. And that is only to show those of you who deny that God is same as Allah. Not only Muslims serve and worship Allah, but according to you book even Jesus did. And we Muslims claim all of God's prophets did before.

   There are NO references in the Old and New Testaments that use the word "Allah." Unless, that is, if one were to try and "prove" that point by using word games or using the Qur'an as the source of that belief. Or by saying thast since the "Arabic Bible" uses the word "Allah" then all Bibles must say so, which they do not. The name "Allah" was applied to a pre-Islamic deity in the pagan Arab religion.

   You "Muslims" can CLAIM all of the prophets of God, that were first written of in the Old and New Testaments, but that does not mean that your claims and beliefs are true. Islam takes both the Old and New Testaments, extracts whatever you Muslims see as supporting Islam, and then discards anything in the Old and New Testaments that DO NOT support Islam and the Qur'an. Simple as that.

   The real truth is that the Old Testament and the New Testament were written thousands of years, in the case of the Old Testament, and hundreds of years, in the case of the New Testament, before Muhammad had his "revelations" and founded Islam. Only in Islam is it needed to explain why Islam, which claims to have "always" existed, even before the Old and New Testaments, was not in physical existence prior to the 7th century AD.

   And why, if the Qur'an was exactly the same as a "tablet preserved" in heaven, would Uthman need to rely on Zayd ibn Thabit's "version" to standardize the Qur'an? And why are there foreign words (Hebrew, Aramaic, Assyrian, Greek, Ethiopic, etc.) in the Qur'an which describes itself as written in "pure Arabic?"

   There are simply too many problems with the Qur'an for me to consider it as a direct "revelation" from God. If it truly came directly from God then there would be perfection in the Qur'an, which, as we know, is far from "perfect." Even it's very form and structure changes over the 23 years that Muhammad had his "revelations."

Larry
Hasan


Edited by Larry - 08 October 2012 at 4:44pm
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 09 October 2012 at 3:28pm
Kish,
I do not need to pay attention to those who reject God as one.
I am safe that way.
God of Moses was One God.
God of David was One God.
God of Jesus was One God.
God of Mohammed (pbut)was One God.
Moses never claimed nor preached Trinity, did he?
David never claimed nor preached Trinity, did he?
How come Jesus could preach Trinity when he as following David and Moses, was he not a follower of the OT, whom you claim and call a Jew?
Mohammed (pbuh)never preached Trinity.
So, do I need to say anything else, I think not.
You have no answer to the above. You can never have. But what you write is mare denials and falsehood, and you yourself provide evidence against yourself.
May God guide you, now you passed the stage of effort, only prayers can help you. And I pray for you, your guidance toward the truth.
Hasan

Edited by honeto - 09 October 2012 at 3:31pm
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Quote Kish Replybullet Posted: 09 October 2012 at 7:30pm
Originally posted by kish

Why are Muslims like yourself afraid to answer the question if this is your belief?
Was it Jesus or Judas on the cross (stake) that said these words?


Of course you will not answer because you have no answer as I have been saying all along. All you have is allegations and here-say. You assume because of your misguidance and what you have been told to believe but I do not blame you unless you fail to take responsibility for not knowing.

Furthermore, the Gospel does not teach God is part of a trinity and never have, nor do we. What people choose to believe and teach like yourself is your business. But what the Holy Scriptures teach is another.

You probably should look up the word Trinity and find out what it means and when it actually started before you start assuming again.

But at least try to answer my questions because when you don't it shows how much you really don't know and you just believe and follow what people tell you without finding out yourself.

With that being said, prey for help yourself first and then maybe you can help others.

But in order for your prayers to be heard they must be in the name of Jesus.

(John 14:6) Jesus said to him: I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Regarding the message of Muhammad . . .

(Revelation 22:18) I am bearing witness to everyone that hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone (Like Muhammad)makes an addition (Quran) to these things (Holy Scriptures), God will add to him the plagues that are written in this scroll (Revelation)

Kish
   

Edited by Kish - 09 October 2012 at 7:32pm
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Quote Larry Replybullet Posted: 09 October 2012 at 10:23pm
Originally posted by honeto

Kish,
I do not need to pay attention to those who reject God as one.

   All Christians believe in one God, so you're not "special" in that way.

I am safe that way.

   We Christians feel safe in our faith also.


God of Moses was One God.

I agree

God of David was One God.

I agree

God of Jesus was One God.

   I agree, but Jesus was not an ordinary person like Moses, David or Muhammad. Jesus Christ IS part of, and of the same substance as, God Himself. Hence the name Emmanuel "God with Us."


God of Mohammed (pbut)was One God.

   I agree. But the God of Islam is NOT the same God that the Jews and Christians worship. Even though the Muslims hijacked large parts of Jewish and Christian belief and added their own "revelations" and then declared that Islam came BEFORE the Old and New Testaments, and that all Old Testament prophets and Patriarchs were not Jews but were, in fact, "actually" Muslims! And then the Muslims claimed that the Old and New Testaments were "corrupted" by the very people who followed these beliefs long before Islam came along.

   Very "convenient" beliefs for the Muslims I would say! How absurd!

Moses never claimed nor preached Trinity, did he?

   No, he did not.

David never claimed nor preached Trinity, did he?

   No, he did not.

How come Jesus could preach Trinity when he as following David and Moses, was he not a follower of the OT, whom you claim and call a Jew?

   Moses and David lived CENTURIES before the birth of Jesus Christ, so how would they know of the Trinity? And Jesus was not only a follower of the Old Testament, but the fulfiller of all prophecy in the Old Testament as the Messiah who was prophesied centuries before. Jesus was a Jew, His mother was a Jew, His stepfather was a Jew and his followers were all Jews. But Jesus brought the New Testament into being. The Old Testament was all about prophecy and the New Testament of Jesus Christ was all about fulfillment of those prophecies.

Mohammed (pbuh)never preached Trinity.

   Well, the last time I checked, Muhammad was NOT a Christian, so it is hardly likely that he would preach about the Trinity.

So, do I need to say anything else, I think not.
You have no answer to the above. You can never have. But what you write is mare denials and falsehood, and you yourself provide evidence against yourself.

   Well, that's your right to believe anything you want, just don't expect Christians to follow a "repackaged", seventh century pagan Arab religion as you do.

   The chief god of the Kaaba was Allah (or Hubal), or "Al-Ilah" (the deity) and one of the original 360 pagan idols in the Kaaba, the "Black Stone", was not destroyed by Muhammad with the rest of the pagan idols, but is built into the corner of the Kaaba itself and is highly venerated by Muslims to this day (the pagan Arab "black stone" idol becomes the "Right Hand of God in Islam), and they try to kiss or even just touch it with their hands or even a stick during the Hajj (I thought that was something that is called "shirk?") If Allah is ONE SUPREME AND ALL-POWERFUL GOD, SHARING NOTHING OF HIS HOLINESS WITH ANYTHING, ESPECIALLY A FORMER PAGAN IDOL) then why do the Muslims still venerate this former pagan idol? And it is strange that you NEVER address any of the questions posed to you concerning the life and actions of the "prophet" Muhammad when he was alive.

   And, we Christians find it difficult to understand what Qur'an 2:106 says;

   "None of Our revelations do we abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar, Knowest thou not that Allah hath power over all things?"

   I would think that if Allah "hath power over all things" He would not need to change previous "revelations" from Himself to Muhammad. Why would it be necessary for Allah to "substitute something better or similar" for "divine" revelation to His own "prophet" Muhammad? In the Bible there is no similar statement that would permit God to "substitute something better or similar" than His original revelations. God does not need to "fix" errors in His divine wisdom because there are NO errors in anything coming directly from God to mankind. That is the difference between the God of Jews and Christians and the God of Islam.

May God guide you, now you passed the stage of effort, only prayers can help you. And I pray for you, your guidance toward the truth.

   Appreciate the prayers, but do not need them to know the "truth," the truth of Jesus Christ as the Son of God. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, the Holy Trinity (even though you do not understand the doctrine of the Trinity and see it as three separate "gods.")

   Oh, yeah, and you never did expalin why that the Qur'an, which is supposedly written "on tablets preserved" in heaven, and in pure Arabic, have foreign words in it's text? There are Greek words, Aramaic words, Assyrian words, Babylonians words and names, Ethiopic words, etc. And these are not in foreign translations of the Qur'an, these words are part of the original Arabic Qur'an as it is written today.

Larry

Hasan


Edited by Larry - 09 October 2012 at 11:15pm
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 15 October 2012 at 11:08am
Larry,
I agree we all have different understanding of things.
You can keep singing the doctrine of Trinity, but you cannot answer a simple question.
Did Moses knew/taught/believed in Trinity?
Can you answer that?
Hasan

39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 15 October 2012 at 11:22am
Originally posted by Kish

Originally posted by kish

Why are Muslims like yourself afraid to answer the question if this is your belief?
Was it Jesus or Judas on the cross (stake) that said these words?


Of course you will not answer because you have no answer as I have been saying all along. All you have is allegations and here-say. You assume because of your misguidance and what you have been told to believe but I do not blame you unless you fail to take responsibility for not knowing.

Furthermore, the Gospel does not teach God is part of a trinity and never have, nor do we. What people choose to believe and teach like yourself is your business. But what the Holy Scriptures teach is another.

You probably should look up the word Trinity and find out what it means and when it actually started before you start assuming again.

But at least try to answer my questions because when you don't it shows how much you really don't know and you just believe and follow what people tell you without finding out yourself.

With that being said, prey for help yourself first and then maybe you can help others.

But in order for your prayers to be heard they must be in the name of Jesus.

(John 14:6) Jesus said to him: I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Regarding the message of Muhammad . . .

(Revelation 22:18) I am bearing witness to everyone that hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone (Like Muhammad)makes an addition (Quran) to these things (Holy Scriptures), God will add to him the plagues that are written in this scroll (Revelation)

Kish
   

Kish,
you got to be out of your mind with those assumptions of yours you call belief.
Jews tried to kill Jesus, they thought they have put him on the cross as they tried to challenge God that if he was the true Messiah, God will save him. In fact God did save him. God raised him up to Himself. What is so hard to understand about that?
Also, the Quran is the only book still in its original language the way it was revealed still with us today. In fourteen hundred years it has never been rewritten, changed or altered. Unfortunately, your book cannot claim, cannot even come 10% close to that. We don't have its original, you even don't know what was its original language or contents. It contradicts it's own contents. What could be more proof of it's alterations by man than that? unless you believe in fairy tales and fictions and you can keep dreaming, or keep telling yourself that if you have hope in deceiving yourself!
Hasan
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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