Originally posted by Caringheart

"The aim of argument, or of discussion, should be not victory, but progress" [Joseph Joubert Pensées]~Be thou my wisdom, be thou my true word,Be thou ever with me, and I with thee Lord;Be thou my great Father, and I thy true son;Be thou in me dwelling, and I with thee one. ~

Originally posted by Larry

Hasan,

   You ask me to "prove me wrong?" in your statements concerning Jesus Christ. Prove you wrong with WHAT? I can easily "prove" you wrong using the Holy Bible. All Christians believe in ONE GOD, even if YOU do not understand the nature of the Holy Trinity.According to the King James version the authors say that you must omit the verse i john 5:7/8 because they are nowhere to be found in the Manuscripts. Christians also believe that salvation comes through this belief in one God, in Jesus Christ's sacrifice to provide salvation for all who believe in Him.New International Version (©1984)
But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken. no free salvation. Every question you have ever asked is answered clearly and unambiguously in the Holy Bible, despite your literalistic and naive "understanding" of what the Bible really says.The problem is you never quote the Bible.

I never quote the Bible? And who are these "authors" of the King James Version who say that I John: 5:7-8 must be omitted?

   My New King James Version says;

   5:7 "For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one."
   5:8 "And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one."

   The footnotes listed for verses 7 and 8 say;

   "7. [John 1:1] b John 10:30 1. NU (the most prominent modern Critical Text of the Greek New Testament) and M (Majority Text) omit the words from in heaven (v.7) through on earth (v.8) Only 4 or 5 very late mss. contain these words in greek.
   "8. John 15:26.

   To say that these verses "are nowhere to be found in the Manuscripts" is in error. They are found in the manuscripts, just not in the NU or the M manuscripts in this precise form.

   But, since you do not believe what the Bible says, or condemn it as "corrupted text", your only reference to refute these beliefs is the Qur'an. You assume that anyone who is a true believer in God is exclusively Muslim, and in that belief you are wrong. I have read the entire Qur'an and am singularly unimpressed with it. It reiterates time after time, over and over, the same message, that there is no God but Allah, that Muhammad is the true and "final" messenger of God and that Muslims need to obey both God and the "Prophet", and if they don't, including Jews and Christians, the "people of the book", or Muslims who leave the faith, then they should be killed.Quote your Bible man stop babling man.APOSTASY : ". . . neither shall thine eye pity him (the apostate),
neither shalt thou spare him, neither shalt thou conceal him:
"But thou shalt SURELY KILL HIM: thine hand shall be first
upon him TO PUT HIM TO DEATH . . ." DEUTRONOMY 13:8,9

   The problem you have here is that no Jews kill other Jews for apostasy in the modern world, hasn't been done for 2,000 years. In Islam today, there are many ex-Muslims killed for their beliefs if they leave Islam for Christianity, Judaism or any other religion than Islam. Islam is the only religion that follows the customs, beliefs and actions of the Arab culture of the 7th century C.E.


   In Christianity and Judaism there is no "death penalty" for those who, for whatever reason, leave the Christian or Jewish faiths. We believe that everyone has the right to believe what they want, even if it means rejecting Christianity or Judaism. That is between them and God, and God does not need our "help" in dealing with "non-believers."lol here explain.APOSTASY : ". . . neither shall thine eye pity him (the apostate),
neither shalt thou spare him, neither shalt thou conceal him:
"But thou shalt SURELY KILL HIM: thine hand shall be first
upon him TO PUT HIM TO DEATH . . ." DEUTRONOMY 13:8,9

   You should learn the difference between ancient practices listed in the Old Testament and current practices taken from the New Testament, which was supplanted by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, this is the NEW Testament of Jesus Christ.

   That is it for the Qur'an. As I have said before, this "Prophet" of yours, according to my reading of the Qur'an, is not a prophet at all, he made NO specific prophecies that were fulfilled in his "revealed" Qur'an. That is the Biblical standard for a true prophet and Muhammad fails on that account and can hardly be considered the "seal of the prophets." In the Old Testament, Muhammad would have been stoned as a false prophet for this very reason.Your statement has no substance all you are spewing is verbal garbage.

   As usual, when anyone mentions "embarassing" revelations about the "prophet" Muhammad, you simply turn off and dismiss the statements rather than having to answer uncomfortable realities. It is obvious that you have never read a comprehensive biography of Muhammad. But I don't blame you, I wouldn't want to have to defend his actions either. And you did not name even ONE "SPECIFIC prophecy made by Muhammad and later fulfilled in the Qur'an, because, oddly, the "prophet" Muhammad made no prophecies at all. Oh, yeah, except for the ONE "prophecy" that Arabs will build "tall buildings" in the future, not exactly a PRECISE prophecy, is it? And Arabs built a number of "tall buildings" a long time prior to the construction of the Burj Khalifa in Dubai (which you usually attribute to this particular "prophecy" of Muhammad.

   Muhammad ordered, or aquiesced to, the deaths of eight hundred innocent Jewish men and boys in Medinah,more garbage proof it. the killing of a woman by tearing her in two by having her legs tied to two camels,proof it. personally robbed caravans of their money and goods,you are talking of the bible here lol ordered the murder of his political rivals, extorted "protection" money, Jizyah, from non-Muslims to maintain their own religionsIf that was the case all you Bible thumpers would not be alive today., even though the Qur'an says that there is "no compulsion in religion." Muhammad "revealed" in the Quran that he, personally as the "Messenger" was due 20% of all monies collected in this and other ways (and added that his "immediate" family have "security" and be protected, and also receive payment from these funds). Muhammad married a six year old girl, Aisha, and "consummated" the marriage with her when she was only nine years old.I think you are smoking weed boy.

   Another dodge and retreat from inconvenient and damaging truths concerning your "prophet." And a shocking lack of knowledge of the writings contained in the Qur'an itself. You say that if Muhammad had extorted "Jizyah" from the Christians and others, and killed those who didn't pay, then there would be none of us "Bible thumpers" alive today. Fortunately, the vast majority of us "Bible thumpers" did not live in the Arab world of the 7th century C.E.

   Every single detail of the "Hajj", from the wearing of two pieces of seamless white cloth, running between the two hills, stoning the devil, praying on the Plain of Arafat, venerating the "black stone" (a pagan idol from the Kaaba) by touching or kissing it, circling the Kaaba a certain number of times, etc. are all PRE-ISLAMIC religious practices and beliefs of the pagan Arabs. These beliefs and actions were retained by Muhammad, who then added a veneer of Judaism and Christianity to give Islam "legitimacy" in the eyes of Muslims.I told you i think you smoking something.

   I am amazed at the degree of denial that you display in answer, or in your case, non-answer, when faced with difficult and embarassing realities. Your lack of knowledge concerning the genesis of the "Hajj" is striking in it's scope. Another dodge on your part.

   Even the "Qibla", originally "revealed" to Muhammad as Jerusalem, was later "revealed" to change to Muhammad's home town of Mecca (this was after the Jews and Christians rejected Islam) and a convenient "revelation" sought to explain this abrupt change in revealed "truth" by saying it was some kind of "test" of Muslims. There are a number of these changed "revelations" in the Qur'an. There is even a surah that allows for the "changing" or "substitution" (to something "better or similar") of one "revelation" to another. There are no Biblical statements by God that His true revelations can be altered or changed by later "revisions." This was supposedly "revealed" to Muhammad as a way to explain the many differences between the Bible and the Qur'an and also to explain contradictions within the Qur'an itself, especially in the case of how the "People of the Book" are to be seen and treated.Not people of a corrupted book full of s@x

   Oh, I see, whenever you run from truth concerning Islam you make those truths even more apparent and stark. The Bible (in your words, "Not people of a corrupted book full of s@x." But Muslims use this 'corrupted book" to "prove" the authenticity of the Qur'an in ANY instance where it SUPPORTS writings in the Qur'an. As I have said before, that is a mighty "convenient" explanation for why the Qur'an differs in so many ways from the Old and New Testaments.

   The God of Israel never had to "change" any of His revelations, or allow for "substitutions" of something "better or similar." Another example of why the God of Israel is NOT the God of the Qur'an.

   And Muslims believe that Allah is the same God as that of the Jews and Christians, but Jews and Christians have always believed that Allah is a falsego and look at your Arabic Bible and you will see that the name for god IS ALLAH.BUT we know you are an islamaphobe so., pagan ancient Arabic deity (worshipped by pagan Arabs and by Muhammad's clan, the Quryash),He was known as al-Amien the truthfull. and rejected his worship as idolatry (as is the veneration of the "black stone." There were quite a few "meteorite cults" in the ancient world, especially in the worship of the goddess Artemis at Ephesus, described in the Bible). Even the symbol of the crescent moon used everywhere in the ancient pagan world as a symbol of the ancient moon god, along with using the lunar calendar. Even the name "Allah" is pre-Islamic.

   So the Jews also use the luner calender only the Christians are sun worshipers.

   Oh, I see again, anytime that I make reference to inconsistencies and contradictions within Islam I am an "Islamophobe." And "he (Muhammad) was known as "al-Amien the truthfull." I don't remember seeing ANYTHING concerning Muhammad's "truthfullness" in the Bible. To use a comment coming from either the Qur'an or the hadiths is scarcely qualified as an "independent" witness to the 'truth" now, is it? "Christians are sun worshipers? LOL! Does that mean that you agree that Muslims are worshippers of the moon? And where you got the idea that the Jews in Israel use the "lunar" calendar is beyond me. They most certainly DO NOT.

   This is only a short list of things believed by Muslims, acts done or ordered by Muhammad, or "revealed" by his "revelations" in the Qur'an and in his biographies. If this is your idea of the "superior" or "perfect" man who was blessed by God for his actions, then that is up to you. Your Bible has no author.you believe in a book with no author only the Paul the lire.PAUL : On his own admittance being cunning, used deceit:
   "But be it so, I did not burden you: nevertheless, being crafty, I
CAUGHT YOU WITH GUILE." 2 CORINTHIANS 12:16

   I guess you missed the part in the Qur'an where it allows for lying if done in the name, or in support of, Islam.

   Even the hadith support this view. ""Allah's Apostle said, "Who is willing to kill Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf who has hurt Allah and his Apostle?" Thereupon Muhammad bin Maslama got up saying, "O Allah's Apostle! Would you like that I kill him?" The Prophet said, "Yes," Muhammad bin Maslama said, "Then allow me to say a (false) thing (i.e. to deceive Ka'b)", The Prophet said, "You may say it."

   Simply comparing the life stories of Jesus Christ and Muhammad, shows clearly who represents God's truth and salvation and who does not. I can understand why certain Muslims seem to be somewhat insecure in their religion, if Muhammad is the standard by which their lives are to be lived and judged and be reflective of God's own peace and salvation.

   I guess you had no answer for this statement.

   "Prove you wrong?" I don't need to prove anything, the real "truth" is there for anyone with eyes to see. And I am sure that you will avoid addressing any of the points I have made in this article, as per your usual modus operandi.you tried your best but it was not good enough.Sam shamoun and his ilk have tried it many times and they ran with their tails between their legs just like you.

   LOL! You didn't just say THAT, did you? If anyone is running with their "tails between their legs" it is you. You did not answer ANYTHING that would expose the illogic and discrepancy of the Qur'an and Islam. You seem to believe that by simply rejecting anything that would be "uncomfortable" for you to answer, that you can evade answering simply by insulting the person asking the question....as usual" And who "Sam shamoun and his ilk" are I have no idea.

P.S. I am not making these statements or stating my beliefs in order to insult you personally, but I am making a definitive statement about my own personal beliefs. Just as you do with your beliefs in Islam. that is your problem not ours.

   My problem? LOL! And who is "ours"? Do you have a frog in your pocket, or do you decline to answer questions about your own faith for all other Muslims as well?

   Play your little word games with someone else, I am tired of your refusal to answer questions about your own faith while ridiculing those who ask them. Or accuse them of being "Islamophobes." Your "non-responses" have become tiresome and all too predictable. Maybe when you learn more about your own religion you will be in a position to answer questions concerning it. Frankly, I don't care if you do or not, it is no longer a concern, or interest, of mine. This conversation has gone beyond boring and tedious.

Larry