IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum: Jesus was crucified according to historia

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Larry
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Posted: 20 April 2011 at 4:29pm

Hasan,

   You speak of the Qur'an as the "truth" and state that: "We fall under the Final "Testament," the Qur'an and we will be judged according to it's teachings and it's teacher, Prophet Mohammed." (By the way, we Christians feel the same way about that in relation to the Bible and the role of Jesus Christ).

   In the musical play "Jesus Christ, Superstar" Pontius Pilate, the Roman governor of Judea, responding to Jesus Christ (who was before him at His trial), says;

"We both have truths, aren't mine the same as yours?"

   No, they are not.

Larry

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Shibboleth

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Posted: 24 April 2011 at 8:51pm

Originally posted by shibboleth

Here are my questions to Hasan aka – Honeto

1) If the Gospel is corrupt why the Qur’an would say to judge by it, observe it, and call it God’s revelation if the copy in existence during Muhammad’s day was contradictory?

2) Where in the Quran does it say that the Gospel is corrupt?

As a Muslim, why you are so hostile, name calling and getting mad doesn’t solve your problem neither does it answers the questions but it does show how juvenile you are and that you lack very basic knowledge.

You seem to have forgotten again, this thread is not on the trinity but on the reality of Jesus crucifixion that only Muhammad denies. We were not talking about the Jews and there book and who forgot what.. What you presented says nothing about the Gospel being corrupted! At this point it’s obvious that you have no answer which only proves again that the Gospel is 100 % inspired and authentic. Why else would it tell your messenger to judge by it, observe it, and call it God’s revelation?

“If you doubt what we have revealed to you, ask those who have read the Scriptures before you.” (Sura 10, Yunis [Jonah], verse 94) & (Surah Al ‘Imran: 84-85)

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honeto

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Posted: 30 April 2011 at 7:01pm

Originally posted by AgnesDei

God made several references to Himself in the plural, in the Old Testament. You can look this up and read it for yourself:

God refers to Himself as “Us,” “Our,” and “We” (Genesis 1:26, 2:18 (LXX), 3:22, 11:7; Isaiah 6:8, and 41:21-24),² a phenomenon that is reflected in virtually every English translation.

I'm just curious, why are you calling non-Muslims "liars?" I thought this was a site of peace and respect. Am I wrong?

AgnesDei

Dear Agnes,

no problem I will give you reason for calling someone a liar. And let me correct you first. I know a lot of non-Muslims and I do not call them all liars like you suggest when you said "why are you calling non-Muslims liars?"

If you would go back to page 39 and read my last post you would know why I did so. And let me quote that reason here: 'Why is Muhammad the only prophet who denies everything that Jesus and the Prophets before him taught, believed and died for?

That is a lie and the one conveying it is a liar, simply because it is untrue.

In fact Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) is the only prophet who taught to acknowledge the virgin birth of Jesus(pbuh) which Jews rejected. I know not of any other religion other than Islam that acknowledge Jesus' virign birth, him being from God as a prophet who brought the word of God know to us as Injeel or Gospel. Who performed miracles with permission and power given to him by God. It was the Prophet who told us that Jesus, Moses, David, Abraham and other prophets (pbut) were all sent by God as guides to teach and guide people to know their God, and to worship none other but their Creator, God Almighty. They all came with the same purpose and fulfilled their obligation and time as commanded by God.

So in the light of this evidence the person who wrote that is in the red above, is a liar.

Hasan

39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"

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honeto

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Posted: 30 April 2011 at 7:16pm

Originally posted by Larry

Hasan,

   You speak of the Qur'an as the "truth" and state that: "We fall under the Final "Testament," the Qur'an and we will be judged according to it's teachings and it's teacher, Prophet Mohammed." (By the way, we Christians feel the same way about that in relation to the Bible and the role of Jesus Christ).

   In the musical play "Jesus Christ, Superstar" Pontius Pilate, the Roman governor of Judea, responding to Jesus Christ (who was before him at His trial), says;

"We both have truths, aren't mine the same as yours?"

   No, they are not.

Larry

Larry,

I don't like plays nor I play with words.

For every period there is a guide a prophet. And it make sense, Noah came from God as a guide, both you and I believe that and respect Noah as a messanger of God. But do you still follow anything God sent through him as a law?

Noah and his message was for a period until God sent the next messanger. So only those who were in the period of Noah will be judged by what was the law sent through him. Likewise all the prophets each for a period, and their people will be judged by the criterian sent through their prophet. We live in times that are not to be judged by what God sent through Moses, or Solomon, David or Jesus(pbut), rather their has come for out time a prophet with a Law and guidance according to which we will be judged whether we are a believer (in him to be the prophet for our times) or a non-believer.

Hasan

39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"

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honeto

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Posted: 30 April 2011 at 7:19pm

Originally posted by Shibboleth

Originally posted by shibboleth

Here are my questions to Hasan aka – Honeto

1) If the Gospel is corrupt why the Qur’an would say to judge by it, observe it, and call it God’s revelation if the copy in existence during Muhammad’s day was contradictory?

2) Where in the Quran does it say that the Gospel is corrupt?

I think you are lost yourself dear, when you ask questions like above that has nothing to do with the subject, and which by the way have been aswered right into your face, many times.

hasan

Edited by honeto - 30 April 2011 at 7:26pm

39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"

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Larry
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Posted: 01 May 2011 at 12:15am

Hasan,

   Whether or not you like "plays" is beside the point of my argument. I quoted the play in order to illustrate the fact that your "truth" and mine are not the same.
   Your belief that people will be "judged" by God based on who the latest "messenger" of their time was is silly and ridiculous. If what you say is true then anyone who was living between the time of Jesus Christ and Muhammad are to be judged by what Jesus taught and said about His Father in heaven, which includes the teachings of Jesus Christ as the Messiah and Son of God.
   So, in your mind, Jews will be judged by all the laws and prophets of the Old Testament that came before Jesus Christ, Christians will be judged by the laws and prophecies of the New Testament of Jesus Christ until the time of Muhammad and everyone living after Muhammad will be judged by the laws and revelations that were made by Muhammad in the Qur'an.
   But I was under the impression that Muslims believe that the Qur'an predated the Bible and, indeed, had been present from the very beginning of the world. It would seem, according to what you say, that the Old and New Testaments of the Bible predate the Qur'an, since Jews and Christians will be judged by God according to the laws revealed in the Old and New Testaments, at least those Jews and Christians who predate Muhammad.
   I guess that means that some Christians will be judged by the teachings of Jesus Christ while I, as a Christian, will be judged, according to you, by the laws of the Qur'an.
   This is what happens when people talk and make statements about things they do not understand.

Larry

Edited by Larry - 01 May 2011 at 12:18am

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islamispeace
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Posted: 01 May 2011 at 11:56am

Larry, it seems like you are the on who does not understand. What brother Hasan stated is clear and concise. No Muslim believes that the Quran, which was revealed over the course of 23 years "predates" the OT and the NT. Actually, we believe that the Torah and the Gospel were in agreement with the Quran on the most important matter, that of God. Obviously, the Torah was revealed first, then the Gospel and then the Quran. As brother Hasan said, the people of each period will be judged by whether or not they followed the messenger or prophet of their time. That means that anyone who deviated from the teachings of that messenger or prophet or rejected him would go to Hell. This means that Christians who, according to the Quran, have deviated from the teachings of Jesus (pbuh), will go to Hell unless they accept the last messenger and prophet, Muhammad (pbuh). For the same reason, the Jews who deviated from the teachings of their prophets and messengers will also go to Hell, but those Jews who lived in the time of Jesus (pbuh) and accepted him will be saved.

I should also add that people who lived during the gap between messengers or prophets will be be judged differently. Since they did not have the guidance of a messenger or prophet sent by God, they are not fully to blame for their ignorance.

Edited by islamispeace - 01 May 2011 at 12:00pm

Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Larry
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Posted: 01 May 2011 at 10:14pm

islamispeace,

   Your answer to my post is as vague and tenuous as that of Hasan and make no sense to me.

   You state; "Actually, we believe that the Torah and the Gospel were in agreement with the Quran on the most important matter, that of God. Obviously the Torah was revealed first, then the Gospel and then the Quran. As brother Hasan said, the people of each period will be judged by whether or not they followed the messenger or prophet of their time. That means that anyone who deviated from the teachings of that messenger or prophet or rejected him would go to Hell. This means that Christians who, ACCORDING TO THE QURAN, have deviated from the message of Jesus (pbuh), will go to Hell unless they accept the last messenger and prophet, Muhammad (pbuh).

   But the Biblical New Testament of Jesus Christ teaches that Jesus Christ was the Messiah and Son of God, that the reason for the birth, life and death of Jesus Christ was for the redemption of sinners who did not merit going to heaven by their own works. The Old Testament prophet Isaiah, 700 years before the birth of Christ, prophesied that the Messiah would be rejected of men, smitten by God, tortured and killed like a common criminal, yet, as Isaiah says, "by His wounds (lit. blows that cut in) we are healed."" Who would ever predict that that would be the fate of the Messiah of the Jews? But that is exactly what happened.

   So it is not the Christians who have "deviated from the teachings of Jesus," but the Quran that has deviated from the message, prophecies and death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, the Messiah and Son of God. Why would there be dicrepancy between the messages of the prophets from the Old and New Testaments of the Bible and that of the Quran?

   Your assertion that the Christians of that period will be judged by the prophecies and message of Jesus Christ, as the Son of God of the New Testament, seems weird and disjointed. Why would people be judged by a "deviant" message from Jesus Christ? It was Christ who said, according to the New Testament, "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life, no one comes to the Father but by Me."

   It is only the Quran that has serious differences between it and the prophets of the Old and New Testaments. As a Christian I don't believe that Salvation through God depends on what time period a person lived in. The only thing that I think does matter on a time scale is that God made a Covenant with the Children of Israel and I believe that God means what He says and keeps that Covenant with the Jews to this day and beyond. To a Christian, Salvation is a gift from God through His sacrifice, death and resurrection on behalf of all mankind.

   Why does the Quran believe that some of the teachings of Jesus Christ were true and others were not true due to "deviations" by the Christians? It is because if the Quran accepts the full teachings of Jesus Christ, as reported in the Gospels by people who lived at that time and shortly after His death and resurrection, then it would have to acknowledge the truth of God from God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, as Jesus taught in His ministry. The whole point of the entire New Testament is the divine nature of Jesus Christ as the Messiah and as the Son of God.

   Then 600 years later Muhammad has his revelations through the angel Gabriel and denies everything of the divine nature of Jesus Christ.

   It is not the Christians who deviate from the message of Jesus Christ through the New Testament, it is Muhammad and the Quran.

Larry

Edited by Larry - 01 May 2011 at 10:18pm

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Topic: Jesus was crucified according to historia
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Author	Message
Larry Male Christian Senior Member Joined: 16 April 2010 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 632	Posted: 20 April 2011 at 4:29pm
	Hasan, You speak of the Qur'an as the "truth" and state that: "We fall under the Final "Testament," the Qur'an and we will be judged according to it's teachings and it's teacher, Prophet Mohammed." (By the way, we Christians feel the same way about that in relation to the Bible and the role of Jesus Christ). In the musical play "Jesus Christ, Superstar" Pontius Pilate, the Roman governor of Judea, responding to Jesus Christ (who was before him at His trial), says; "We both have truths, aren't mine the same as yours?" No, they are not. Larry
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Shibboleth Guest Group Joined: 06 August 2009 Online Status: Offline Posts: 281	Posted: 24 April 2011 at 8:51pm
	*Originally posted by shibboleth* Here are my questions to Hasan aka – Honeto 1) If the Gospel is corrupt why the Qur’an would say to judge by it, observe it, and call it God’s revelation if the copy in existence during Muhammad’s day was contradictory? 2) Where in the Quran does it say that the Gospel is corrupt? As a Muslim, why you are so hostile, name calling and getting mad doesn’t solve your problem neither does it answers the questions but it does show how juvenile you are and that you lack very basic knowledge. You seem to have forgotten again, this thread is not on the trinity but on the reality of Jesus crucifixion that only Muhammad denies. We were not talking about the Jews and there book and who forgot what.. What you presented says nothing about the Gospel being corrupted! At this point it’s obvious that you have no answer which only proves again that the Gospel is 100 % inspired and authentic. Why else would it tell your messenger to judge by it, observe it, and call it God’s revelation?
	“If you doubt what we have revealed to you, ask those who have read the Scriptures before you.” (Sura 10, Yunis [Jonah], verse 94) & (Surah Al ‘Imran: 84-85)
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honeto Senior Member Joined: 20 March 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2340	Posted: 30 April 2011 at 7:01pm
	*Originally posted by AgnesDei* God made several references to Himself in the plural, in the Old Testament. You can look this up and read it for yourself: God refers to Himself as “Us,” “Our,” and “We” (Genesis 1:26, 2:18 (LXX), 3:22, 11:7; Isaiah 6:8, and 41:21-24),² a phenomenon that is reflected in virtually every English translation. I'm just curious, why are you calling non-Muslims "liars?" I thought this was a site of peace and respect. Am I wrong? AgnesDei Dear Agnes, no problem I will give you reason for calling someone a liar. And let me correct you first. I know a lot of non-Muslims and I do not call them all liars like you suggest when you said "why are you calling non-Muslims liars?" If you would go back to page 39 and read my last post you would know why I did so. And let me quote that reason here: 'Why is Muhammad the only prophet who denies everything that Jesus and the Prophets before him taught, believed and died for? That is a lie and the one conveying it is a liar, simply because it is untrue. In fact Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) is the only prophet who taught to acknowledge the virgin birth of Jesus(pbuh) which Jews rejected. I know not of any other religion other than Islam that acknowledge Jesus' virign birth, him being from God as a prophet who brought the word of God know to us as Injeel or Gospel. Who performed miracles with permission and power given to him by God. It was the Prophet who told us that Jesus, Moses, David, Abraham and other prophets (pbut) were all sent by God as guides to teach and guide people to know their God, and to worship none other but their Creator, God Almighty. They all came with the same purpose and fulfilled their obligation and time as commanded by God. So in the light of this evidence the person who wrote that is in the red above, is a liar. Hasan
	39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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honeto Senior Member Joined: 20 March 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2340	Posted: 30 April 2011 at 7:16pm
	*Originally posted by Larry* Hasan, You speak of the Qur'an as the "truth" and state that: "We fall under the Final "Testament," the Qur'an and we will be judged according to it's teachings and it's teacher, Prophet Mohammed." (By the way, we Christians feel the same way about that in relation to the Bible and the role of Jesus Christ). In the musical play "Jesus Christ, Superstar" Pontius Pilate, the Roman governor of Judea, responding to Jesus Christ (who was before him at His trial), says; "We both have truths, aren't mine the same as yours?" No, they are not. Larry Larry, I don't like plays nor I play with words. For every period there is a guide a prophet. And it make sense, Noah came from God as a guide, both you and I believe that and respect Noah as a messanger of God. But do you still follow anything God sent through him as a law? Noah and his message was for a period until God sent the next messanger. So only those who were in the period of Noah will be judged by what was the law sent through him. Likewise all the prophets each for a period, and their people will be judged by the criterian sent through their prophet. We live in times that are not to be judged by what God sent through Moses, or Solomon, David or Jesus(pbut), rather their has come for out time a prophet with a Law and guidance according to which we will be judged whether we are a believer (in him to be the prophet for our times) or a non-believer. Hasan
	39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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honeto Senior Member Joined: 20 March 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2340	Posted: 30 April 2011 at 7:19pm
	*Originally posted by Shibboleth* *Originally posted by shibboleth* Here are my questions to Hasan aka – Honeto 1) If the Gospel is corrupt why the Qur’an would say to judge by it, observe it, and call it God’s revelation if the copy in existence during Muhammad’s day was contradictory? 2) Where in the Quran does it say that the Gospel is corrupt? As a Muslim, why you are so hostile, name calling and getting mad doesn’t solve your problem neither does it answers the questions but it does show how juvenile you are and that you lack very basic knowledge. You seem to have forgotten again, this thread is not on the trinity but on the reality of Jesus crucifixion that only Muhammad denies. We were not talking about the Jews and there book and who forgot what.. What you presented says nothing about the Gospel being corrupted! At this point it’s obvious that you have no answer which only proves again that the Gospel is 100 % inspired and authentic. Why else would it tell your messenger to judge by it, observe it, and call it God’s revelation? I think you are lost yourself dear, when you ask questions like above that has nothing to do with the subject, and which by the way have been aswered right into your face, many times. hasan Edited by honeto - 30 April 2011 at 7:26pm
	39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Larry Male Christian Senior Member Joined: 16 April 2010 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 632	Posted: 01 May 2011 at 12:15am
	Hasan, Whether or not you like "plays" is beside the point of my argument. I quoted the play in order to illustrate the fact that your "truth" and mine are not the same. Your belief that people will be "judged" by God based on who the latest "messenger" of their time was is silly and ridiculous. If what you say is true then anyone who was living between the time of Jesus Christ and Muhammad are to be judged by what Jesus taught and said about His Father in heaven, which includes the teachings of Jesus Christ as the Messiah and Son of God. So, in your mind, Jews will be judged by all the laws and prophets of the Old Testament that came before Jesus Christ, Christians will be judged by the laws and prophecies of the New Testament of Jesus Christ until the time of Muhammad and everyone living after Muhammad will be judged by the laws and revelations that were made by Muhammad in the Qur'an. But I was under the impression that Muslims believe that the Qur'an predated the Bible and, indeed, had been present from the very beginning of the world. It would seem, according to what you say, that the Old and New Testaments of the Bible predate the Qur'an, since Jews and Christians will be judged by God according to the laws revealed in the Old and New Testaments, at least those Jews and Christians who predate Muhammad. I guess that means that some Christians will be judged by the teachings of Jesus Christ while I, as a Christian, will be judged, according to you, by the laws of the Qur'an. This is what happens when people talk and make statements about things they do not understand. Larry Edited by Larry - 01 May 2011 at 12:18am
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islamispeace Islam Senior Member Joined: 01 November 2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1417	Posted: 01 May 2011 at 11:56am
	Larry, it seems like you are the on who does not understand. What brother Hasan stated is clear and concise. No Muslim believes that the Quran, which was revealed over the course of 23 years "predates" the OT and the NT. Actually, we believe that the Torah and the Gospel were in agreement with the Quran on the most important matter, that of God. Obviously, the Torah was revealed first, then the Gospel and then the Quran. As brother Hasan said, the people of each period will be judged by whether or not they followed the messenger or prophet of their time. That means that anyone who deviated from the teachings of that messenger or prophet or rejected him would go to Hell. This means that Christians who, according to the Quran, have deviated from the teachings of Jesus (pbuh), will go to Hell unless they accept the last messenger and prophet, Muhammad (pbuh). For the same reason, the Jews who deviated from the teachings of their prophets and messengers will also go to Hell, but those Jews who lived in the time of Jesus (pbuh) and accepted him will be saved. I should also add that people who lived during the gap between messengers or prophets will be be judged differently. Since they did not have the guidance of a messenger or prophet sent by God, they are not fully to blame for their ignorance. Edited by islamispeace - 01 May 2011 at 12:00pm
	Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)
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Larry Male Christian Senior Member Joined: 16 April 2010 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 632	Posted: 01 May 2011 at 10:14pm
	islamispeace, Your answer to my post is as vague and tenuous as that of Hasan and make no sense to me. You state; "Actually, we believe that the Torah and the Gospel were in agreement with the Quran on the most important matter, that of God. Obviously the Torah was revealed first, then the Gospel and then the Quran. As brother Hasan said, the people of each period will be judged by whether or not they followed the messenger or prophet of their time. That means that anyone who deviated from the teachings of that messenger or prophet or rejected him would go to Hell. This means that Christians who, ACCORDING TO THE QURAN, have deviated from the message of Jesus (pbuh), will go to Hell unless they accept the last messenger and prophet, Muhammad (pbuh). But the Biblical New Testament of Jesus Christ teaches that Jesus Christ was the Messiah and Son of God, that the reason for the birth, life and death of Jesus Christ was for the redemption of sinners who did not merit going to heaven by their own works. The Old Testament prophet Isaiah, 700 years before the birth of Christ, prophesied that the Messiah would be rejected of men, smitten by God, tortured and killed like a common criminal, yet, as Isaiah says, "by His wounds (lit. blows that cut in) we are healed."" Who would ever predict that that would be the fate of the Messiah of the Jews? But that is exactly what happened. So it is not the Christians who have "deviated from the teachings of Jesus," but the Quran that has deviated from the message, prophecies and death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, the Messiah and Son of God. Why would there be dicrepancy between the messages of the prophets from the Old and New Testaments of the Bible and that of the Quran? Your assertion that the Christians of that period will be judged by the prophecies and message of Jesus Christ, as the Son of God of the New Testament, seems weird and disjointed. Why would people be judged by a "deviant" message from Jesus Christ? It was Christ who said, according to the New Testament, "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life, no one comes to the Father but by Me." It is only the Quran that has serious differences between it and the prophets of the Old and New Testaments. As a Christian I don't believe that Salvation through God depends on what time period a person lived in. The only thing that I think does matter on a time scale is that God made a Covenant with the Children of Israel and I believe that God means what He says and keeps that Covenant with the Jews to this day and beyond. To a Christian, Salvation is a gift from God through His sacrifice, death and resurrection on behalf of all mankind. Why does the Quran believe that some of the teachings of Jesus Christ were true and others were not true due to "deviations" by the Christians? It is because if the Quran accepts the full teachings of Jesus Christ, as reported in the Gospels by people who lived at that time and shortly after His death and resurrection, then it would have to acknowledge the truth of God from God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, as Jesus taught in His ministry. The whole point of the entire New Testament is the divine nature of Jesus Christ as the Messiah and as the Son of God. Then 600 years later Muhammad has his revelations through the angel Gabriel and denies everything of the divine nature of Jesus Christ. It is not the Christians who deviate from the message of Jesus Christ through the New Testament, it is Muhammad and the Quran. Larry Edited by Larry - 01 May 2011 at 10:18pm
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