IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum: Jesus was crucified according to historia

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robin

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Posted: 14 August 2008 at 6:13am

Originally posted by Angel

Originally posted by robin

Originally posted by myahya

Believer: "it was made to them" to me means that Jesus' body died but He was not truly dead because His spirit was alive, but the witnesses could not see that because as humans we can only see the outward form of the body.

Literal word of Quran says Isa a.s. is not killed. So, does it mean to you that Isa a.s. is died of natural death?

The Bible tells us Jesus was Sin free so he could not die as Sin produces death:-

Hebrews 4:14-15

Seeing, therefore, that we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold onto [our] confessing of [him]. ¹⁵ For we have as high priest, not one who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who has been tested in all respects like ourselves, but without sin.

Not sure what this verse as to do with the above.

It means that Jesus was sin free or a perfect man not libel to death, he could have lived forever as a human being on earth!

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believer

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Posted: 15 August 2008 at 7:20am

honeto- Jesus is a manifestaion of GOD.

Jesus is GOD's Word. GOD is standing by His Word and His WORD is with GOD for all times. The truth that is Jesus in the New Testament is with GOD.

myahya - Literal word of Quran says Isa a.s. is not killed. So, does it mean to you that Isa a.s. is died of natural death?

No. Jesus' soul is alive and well, His body died on the cross and was then ressurected.

John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

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honeto

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Posted: 15 August 2008 at 6:41pm

Originally posted by believer

honeto- Jesus is a manifestaion of GOD.

Jesus is GOD's Word. GOD is standing by His Word and His WORD is with GOD for all times. The truth that is Jesus in the New Testament is with GOD.

myahya - Literal word of Quran says Isa a.s. is not killed. So, does it mean to you that Isa a.s. is died of natural death?

No. Jesus' soul is alive and well, His body died on the cross and was then ressurected.

believer,

as you say, "If Jesus is a manifestation of God", then try to understand my question that, if God manifested himself as Jesus on the earth according to you, then upon him going back he be God, not sitting next to God as you also claimed?? I hope you understand what I mean, if he is God, why is he sitting next to God?

Hasan

39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"

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minuteman

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Posted: 16 August 2008 at 7:53am

That was a good question. Also I would like to know whether Jesus was sinless before the incident of the cross or after that incident?. Was he a god before that incident or after that?

If any one is bad some one must suffer

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robin

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Posted: 16 August 2008 at 10:29am

Originally posted by minuteman

That was a good question. Also I would like to know whether Jesus was sinless before the incident of the cross or after that incident?. Was he a god before that incident or after that?

As Jesus was a direct product of God (a created being by God) and had no sinful human father, thus he was sin free!

In other words if Jesus had not been murdered by the false religious leaders in his day he would not have died as he was sinless.

Edited by robin - 17 August 2008 at 1:00am

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believer

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Posted: 16 August 2008 at 6:36pm

honeto you are placing GOD in a single limited state by your thinking. GOD is Spirit not contained completely in any one form.

Have you ever heard the phrase "right hand man"? Jesus is GOD's right hand man.

Do you believe that GOD's Word is sinless and from the beginning of all times? Jesus is GOD's Word made flesh.

John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

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minuteman

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Posted: 17 August 2008 at 12:42am

Originally posted by robin

Originally posted by minuteman

That was a good question. Also I would like to know whether Jesus was sinless before the incident of the cross or after that incident?. Was he a god before that incident or after that?

As Jesus was a direct product of God (a created being by God) and had no sinful human father, thus he was sin free!

In other words if Jesus had not been murdered by the false religious leaders in his day he would not have dies as he was sinless.

robin, it is not understood what you are trying to convey. You say Jesus was a direct product of God. But then all other things must have been created by Jesus. That is all stars and galaxies and animals and lands. You are advancing the case of Jesus too much. It appears that the real God created only Jesus.

Then he left the job of creation to his son Jesus and Himself went on holiday for ever.

Christians say that wages of sin are death. So if Jesus dies then he must be sinful. It does not matter if he was forcibly killed by the wicked men or he was killed otherwise. The mere act of being killed makes him sinner according to the church theory. And it makes him a false prophet according to the Deut 18:20. See below:

19 If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account.

20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death." (So Jesus was put to death on the cross)

21 You may say to yourselves, "How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD ?" 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.Jesus

According to what you said, if any one was killed by some rascal then he must be sinless. Jesus was killed on the cross according to you. You also say that wages of sin are death. And Jesus died too. That is death. Yet robin wants to prove that he was sinless.

We Muslims already believe that Jesus was sinless. There is no need to teach us any complicated theory.

Edited by minuteman - 17 August 2008 at 12:46am

If any one is bad some one must suffer

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robin

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Posted: 17 August 2008 at 1:08am

Originally posted by minuteman

Originally posted by robin

Originally posted by minuteman

That was a good question. Also I would like to know whether Jesus was sinless before the incident of the cross or after that incident?. Was he a god before that incident or after that?

As Jesus was a direct product of God (a created being by God) and had no sinful human father, thus he was sin free!

In other words if Jesus had not been murdered by the false religious leaders in his day he would not have dies as he was sinless.

Then he left the job of creation to his son Jesus and Himself went on holiday for ever.

19 If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account.

We Muslims already believe that Jesus was sinless. There is no need to teach us any complicated theory.

"Christians say that wages of sin are death." What you say here is true bit it is an INTERNAL cause!!

The internal cause of death in all humans is sin.

Jesus death was caused by an external cause as in my post, otherwise he would not have died as he was sin free.

It is true that Jesus, as "The Word," was and is Allah's only direct creation and that he then supervised "The Word" then doing his ongoing will!

Edited by robin - 17 August 2008 at 1:10am

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Topic: Jesus was crucified according to historia
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Author	Message
robin Senior Member Joined: 17 May 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 595	Posted: 14 August 2008 at 6:13am
	*Originally posted by Angel* *Originally posted by robin* *Originally posted by myahya* Believer: "it was made to them" to me means that Jesus' body died but He was not truly dead because His spirit was alive, but the witnesses could not see that because as humans we can only see the outward form of the body. Literal word of Quran says Isa a.s. is not killed. So, does it mean to you that Isa a.s. is died of natural death? The Bible tells us Jesus was Sin free so he could not die as Sin produces death:- Hebrews 4:14-15 Seeing, therefore, that we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold onto [our] confessing of [him]. ¹⁵ For we have as high priest, not one who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who has been tested in all respects like ourselves, but without sin. Not sure what this verse as to do with the above. It means that Jesus was sin free or a perfect man not libel to death, he could have lived forever as a human being on earth!
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believer Guest Group Joined: 08 January 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1397	Posted: 15 August 2008 at 7:20am
	honeto- Jesus is a manifestaion of GOD. Jesus is GOD's Word. GOD is standing by His Word and His WORD is with GOD for all times. The truth that is Jesus in the New Testament is with GOD. *myahya -* Literal word of Quran says Isa a.s. is not killed. So, does it mean to you that Isa a.s. is died of natural death? No. Jesus' soul is alive and well, His body died on the cross and was then ressurected.
	John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
	IP Logged

honeto Senior Member Joined: 20 March 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2340	Posted: 15 August 2008 at 6:41pm
	*Originally posted by believer* honeto- Jesus is a manifestaion of GOD. Jesus is GOD's Word. GOD is standing by His Word and His WORD is with GOD for all times. The truth that is Jesus in the New Testament is with GOD. *myahya -* Literal word of Quran says Isa a.s. is not killed. So, does it mean to you that Isa a.s. is died of natural death? No. Jesus' soul is alive and well, His body died on the cross and was then ressurected. believer, as you say, "If Jesus is a manifestation of God", then try to understand my question that, if God manifested himself as Jesus on the earth according to you, then upon him going back he be God, not sitting next to God as you also claimed?? I hope you understand what I mean, if he is God, why is he sitting next to God? Hasan
	39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
	IP Logged

minuteman Senior Member Joined: 25 March 2007 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1642	Posted: 16 August 2008 at 7:53am
	That was a good question. Also I would like to know whether Jesus was sinless before the incident of the cross or after that incident?. Was he a god before that incident or after that?
	If any one is bad some one must suffer
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robin Senior Member Joined: 17 May 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 595	Posted: 16 August 2008 at 10:29am
	*Originally posted by minuteman* That was a good question. Also I would like to know whether Jesus was sinless before the incident of the cross or after that incident?. Was he a god before that incident or after that? As Jesus was a direct product of God (a created being by God) and had no sinful human father, thus he was sin free! In other words if Jesus had not been murdered by the false religious leaders in his day he would not have died as he was sinless. Edited by robin - 17 August 2008 at 1:00am
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believer Guest Group Joined: 08 January 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1397	Posted: 16 August 2008 at 6:36pm
	honeto you are placing GOD in a single limited state by your thinking. GOD is Spirit not contained completely in any one form. Have you ever heard the phrase "right hand man"? Jesus is GOD's right hand man. Do you believe that GOD's Word is sinless and from the beginning of all times? Jesus is GOD's Word made flesh.
	John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
	IP Logged

minuteman Senior Member Joined: 25 March 2007 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1642	Posted: 17 August 2008 at 12:42am
	*Originally posted by robin* *Originally posted by minuteman* That was a good question. Also I would like to know whether Jesus was sinless before the incident of the cross or after that incident?. Was he a god before that incident or after that? As Jesus was a direct product of God (a created being by God) and had no sinful human father, thus he was sin free! In other words if Jesus had not been murdered by the false religious leaders in his day he would not have dies as he was sinless. robin, it is not understood what you are trying to convey. You say Jesus was a direct product of God. But then all other things must have been created by Jesus. That is all stars and galaxies and animals and lands. You are advancing the case of Jesus too much. It appears that the real God created only Jesus. Then he left the job of creation to his son Jesus and Himself went on holiday for ever. Christians say that wages of sin are death. So if Jesus dies then he must be sinful. It does not matter if he was forcibly killed by the wicked men or he was killed otherwise. The mere act of being killed makes him sinner according to the church theory. And it makes him a false prophet according to the Deut 18:20. See below: 19 If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account. 20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death." (So Jesus was put to death on the cross) 21 You may say to yourselves, "How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD ?" 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.Jesus According to what you said, if any one was killed by some rascal then he must be sinless. Jesus was killed on the cross according to you. You also say that wages of sin are death. And Jesus died too. That is death. Yet robin wants to prove that he was sinless. We Muslims already believe that Jesus was sinless. There is no need to teach us any complicated theory. Edited by minuteman - 17 August 2008 at 12:46am
	If any one is bad some one must suffer
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robin Senior Member Joined: 17 May 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 595	Posted: 17 August 2008 at 1:08am
	*Originally posted by minuteman* *Originally posted by robin* *Originally posted by minuteman* That was a good question. Also I would like to know whether Jesus was sinless before the incident of the cross or after that incident?. Was he a god before that incident or after that? As Jesus was a direct product of God (a created being by God) and had no sinful human father, thus he was sin free! In other words if Jesus had not been murdered by the false religious leaders in his day he would not have dies as he was sinless. robin, it is not understood what you are trying to convey. You say Jesus was a direct product of God. But then all other things must have been created by Jesus. That is all stars and galaxies and animals and lands. You are advancing the case of Jesus too much. It appears that the real God created only Jesus. Then he left the job of creation to his son Jesus and Himself went on holiday for ever. Christians say that wages of sin are death. So if Jesus dies then he must be sinful. It does not matter if he was forcibly killed by the wicked men or he was killed otherwise. The mere act of being killed makes him sinner according to the church theory. And it makes him a false prophet according to the Deut 18:20. See below: 19 If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account. 20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death." (So Jesus was put to death on the cross) 21 You may say to yourselves, "How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD ?" 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.Jesus According to what you said, if any one was killed by some rascal then he must be sinless. Jesus was killed on the cross according to you. You also say that wages of sin are death. And Jesus died too. That is death. Yet robin wants to prove that he was sinless. We Muslims already believe that Jesus was sinless. There is no need to teach us any complicated theory. "Christians say that wages of sin are death." What you say here is true bit it is an INTERNAL cause!! The internal cause of death in all humans is sin. Jesus death was caused by an external cause as in my post, otherwise he would not have died as he was sin free. It is true that Jesus, as "The Word," was and is Allah's only direct creation and that he then supervised "The Word" then doing his ongoing will! Edited by robin - 17 August 2008 at 1:10am
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