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Message Icon Topic: Why do muslim countries not have strong economy? Post Reply Post New Topic
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Quote Sign*Reader Replybullet Posted: 12 November 2008 at 8:16pm
Hayfa: Thanks for the link!

The prophet of the politics Machiavelli is absolutely clear in what he wrote in treatise The Prince;  that is almost a protocol for colonialists of past and the  neocolonialists of present time!

Every western leader has followed this line beside taking God's name in vain!
The people in bondage in Muslim lands have no other way but to know Machiavelli's edicts so they can prepare a  true antidote for their freedom from neocolonialist's control! Then and only then they will be able to own what they will build and then there will be no talk of want or economy will be  a non issue!

The Prince

by Nicolo Machiavelli


Concerning The Way To Govern Cities Or Principalities Which Lived Under Their Own Laws Before They Were Annexed

WHENEVER those states which have been acquired as stated have been accustomed to live under their own laws and in freedom,

there are three courses for those who wish to hold them:

I.the first is to ruin them,(Indian nations of Americas, African slave trade)

II.the next is to reside there in person,( Colonialism of Americas, and Muslim lands in Asia / Africa)

the third is to permit them to live under their own laws, drawing a tribute, and establishing within it an oligarchy which will keep it friendly to you.(Current neocolonialism of Asia & Africa inc ME)

Because such a government, being created by the prince, knows that it cannot stand without his friendship and interest, and does its utmost to support him; and therefore he who would keep a city accustomed to freedom will hold it more easily by the means of its own citizens than in any other way.

The Muslim countries are in structured bondage I quote a sample below:

"His Majesty's Government and I are in the same boat and must sink or swim together. . . if you wish me and your policy to succeed, it is folly to damn me permanently in the public eye by making me an obvious puppet."

King Faisal I of Iraq to the British high commis­sioner, Iraq/Mesopotamia, August 17, 1921

What has changed in Iraq even after 80 years with millions of lives and trillions of dollars worth of wealth wasted?
The fight to keep them in the neocolonial stage has intensified for all the Muslim populated lands!
Just look around why are there so many states in the ME while Europe is coming together? And Turkey is begging to let her in the club!! The Muslims are in dependent stage and do not have character of a free Ummah across the board!

Allah has a macro cycle for the nations as follows:

From bondage to

1.Faith in the Cause

2.great courage to face the enemies within & without

3. liberty/ Leadership/ Justice




7. apathy

8.dependence & back to bondage again!

Just think if Mao didn't have the faith for the long march! 

Finally look AT THE US IT IS AT THE 5TH STAGE AND SLIPPING ! living off on the borrowed money from the votaries of Mao who America refused to recognize for a long time!

 Wow What can be better example than this my friends! 

But you know some of the resourceful areas of the Muslim world(ME) skipped the first three and juggling between stage four and five!or even down to sixth stage!

A microcosm of this sample you can see in places like Dubai 

The scene at Dubai's luxury Burj al Arab hotel is anything to go by, there's  robust demand for hotel rooms that start at about $1,500 a night and bikinis that cost $800. This level of consumption is impressive, especially when you consider that the super-rich must struggle with a serious unemployment problem-- almost none of the designer-clad men and women who grace the Burj al Arab appear to have, uh, jobs. But they cope bravely with this situation, finding in it an opportunity to pay culturally enriching visits to Dubai's many beaches, nightclubs and shopping malls.!

And this supposed to be Muslim countryWink

Edited by Sign*Reader - 14 November 2008 at 10:14am
Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.
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Quote Whisper Replybullet Posted: 12 November 2008 at 9:48pm

I should define what I call prosperity. 
In some way, I do understand what you mean, but is such a So tatty (I would not honour any such place by calling it a Society!) worth living in – where a woman doesn’t have her place as a DEPUTY CREATOR and can feel her “worth” only when she becomes a work horse and pays her way through the Terms Of Enslavement, the mortgage.


Angela, I would have been the greatest admirer of this system just if I had not known it so well!


One can be rich without being wealthy. 
We are discussing just the economic aspects, continually. I understand that. In some parts of the world, a woman would wish to be really rich – with something that only her Creator can grant her and soonest – her grandchildren!

Prosperity is the farms producing enough food for the people in the area and the people in the area being able to afford (even through barter) to purchase that food.
You know I am farmer. My lands were producing good crops for hundreds of years. I took charge at a very st**id age. I was a freshly cut graduate! I knew everything about life that anyone needed to know. I put in “better” practices – my yields increased, I was producing over 32 to 40 tonnes of cane from an acre! Fan simply tastic!

In 30 years my lands have died. They are poisoned by what Exxon has been selling me. (And, please, don’t tell anyone, I had got my manager appointed as their Regional Agent)

After all this prosperity, we are producing nada sugar cane.

There is no natural model of continued growth.

Enrich - what I mean by enrich society is by innovation.  Muslim scholars brought us algebra, astronomy, poetry, innovations in cryptology and medicine.  These innovations came from men and women who lived in the security of a Tribal community with traditional values.
They had a whole millennium of a great time, the chap who started this string must be strung by a nylon wire for his lack of sense.

Men and women in Bahrain require help from their Sultan for welfare and that is the richest country in the world.  
That is the culture there, they work on that model, this US model doesn’t and it won’t fit just everywhere.

Pakistan is suffering from a split personality.  On one hand, they are growing and on the other, inflation and poverty are hurting the poorest of citizens.
Yes, absolutely, but then what do you get when you import the American value system and live on their standards?

I find it a bit of a paradox that we are so maligned by the rest of the world for our excesses, yet I see 1000s coming here every year for an opportunity they do not have in their home countries.
Yes, Allah has created some for the ultimate suffering and He sends them to there hells even on this earth.

There are those of us here in the US that would like things to be much simpler.  I think we are feeling the pain of that excess with our collapsing economy.  Greedy people buying homes they could not afford and greedy lenders taking advantage of people who don't understand the complicated world of mortgages.
It’s plain, the Shylocks of our world would die without their pounds of real human flesh. The system is based on bleeding humans.

It would be nice to live with my family for 10 years and have the money to buy a house outright.  However, I feel that I would have killed my father in law in that amount of time... LOL   It would be nice to be able to go to my sisters house and drop off my children if I had to work.  Or watch her children if she had to work. 
Yes! But don’t you agree that it would be the best system in which the both of you could watch your children and neither of you was required to play for those Terms of Enslavement?

I do feel you are being a bit optimistic that women don't fall through the cracks.  Her father may be dead, she may have had no brothers or sons...  Everyone else is marriageable in Islamic society.  I would maybe be able to go live with a cousin or even my inlaws if I were widowed because in this country marrying your cousin is illegal.  A muslim woman does not have those choices.  She must quickly get married if she has no mahrams and society has not provided for her to be self-sufficient.
Angela, all I believe is that a system that doesn’t assign woman with her basic natural “worth” of a Deputy Creator is a scam, a plain simple fraud and absolutely haram.
I want to stay home when I have my first child and while they are too young to go to school.  That is a desire of almost every woman.  However, the idea that opening opportunity is a bad thing... that is beyond me.
Absolutely. Thank goodness, I will die a happy man (well I nearly did on 12th June) in my community every woman holds and enjoys her status as a Deputy Creator. And, this Deputy Creator decree is my invention, because for ever I took God to be a bit better, more powerful and loving than my mother! For me, she was His Deputy. I may be wrong but for me that’s what she was!

Edited by Whisper - 12 November 2008 at 9:50pm
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Quote Angela Replybullet Posted: 13 November 2008 at 4:46am
Originally posted by Whisper

Absolutely. Thank goodness, I will die a happy man (well I nearly did on 12th June) in my community every woman holds and enjoys her status as a Deputy Creator. And, this Deputy Creator decree is my invention, because for ever I took God to be a bit better, more powerful and loving than my mother! For me, she was His Deputy. I may be wrong but for me that’s what she was!

I have a personal question my dearest Sasha.  What worth would I be in your society?  I am not a deputy creator.  I would have no value, no place and no options.  This "Deputy Creator" thing would leave me less than a dog.  And I mean that with all the pain and sadness in my heart.  Its all fine and good for woman to be measured in worth by her motherhood.  But what about the rest of us. 

I saw this in the news today.   I just thought I would add it to the numerous articles. 

Two schoolgirls blinded in acid attack in Afghanistan

Two men on a motorcycle used water pistols to spray acid on girls walking to school Wednesday in the southern Afghan city of Kandahar, blinding at least two of them, military spokesmen said.

U.S. Col. Greg Julian said Afghanistan's National Military Command Center told him that four girls were hurt in the incident. Two were blinded and remain hospitalized, and two were treated and released, he said.

The men escaped after the attack, and no one claimed responsibility for it, but Arab-language network Al-Jazeera said Taliban militants were suspected to be responsible.

The incident occurred about 8 a.m. near Mirwais Nika Girls High School in the Meir Weis Mena district.

Kandahar government spokesman Parwaz Ayoubi gave different figures on the number of girls injured, saying six were burned, one of them severely. He called the attackers "enemies of education."

Girls were forbidden to attend school under the Taliban, which ruled the country from 1996 to 2001, when U.S.-led forces removed them from power.

According to Al-Jazeera, the girls were attacked with battery acid. Two teenage sisters, one of whom suffered serious burns, were among the victims.

"We were on the way to school when two men on motorbikes stopped next to us. One of them threw acid on my sister's face. I tried to help her, and then they threw acid on me, too," Latefa, 16, told the Qatar-based satellite network.

"We were shouting, and people came to see what was going on. Then the two men escaped," she said.

Latefa told Al-Jazeera that she was hurt, and her 18-year-old sister was in serious condition with acid burns on her face.

Al-Jazeera said schoolgirls in Kandahar can be recognized by their uniform of black pants, white shirt, black coat and head scarf.

The top U.S. commander in Afghanistan condemned the incident, as well as a suicide bombing that occurred near a government building hours later that killed and wounded several civilians, including women and children.

"These cowardly acts reflect how dishonorable the insurgents truly are," Gen. David McKiernan said in a statement posted on the Web site of the International Security Assistance Force.

"No one can honestly say they are fighting for the people, then purposefully attack innocent women and children," he said.

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Quote abuayisha Replybullet Posted: 13 November 2008 at 1:14pm
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Quote PattyaMainer Replybullet Posted: 13 November 2008 at 3:23pm
These men are the very epitome of evil.  I pray the girls will recover and be well, but they will obviously be scarred.  Very sad and troubling.
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Quote Whisper Replybullet Posted: 13 November 2008 at 8:42pm
These men are the very epitome of evil.  I pray the girls will recover and be well, but they will obviously be scarred.  Very sad and troubling.
I like you Patty, BUT please you will have the right of talking about any men, good or evil, ONLY when your evil men have left our lands. Period
Their presence in our lands has been a tool of provocation. Not that I expect you to understand it, but I am declaring it in genaral idiotic American public interest.

Edited by Whisper - 13 November 2008 at 8:46pm
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Quote Whisper Replybullet Posted: 13 November 2008 at 8:51pm
I have a personal question my dearest Sasha.
Angela, your whole question is travelling to Madrid with me, just in an hour and I will be here long before I leave for the UK.
We can't taste the whole of society just with a few freak incidents, specially, when most of these freak incidents are inspired and conducted by various intell services!
I am not going to credit just the CIA, but the ISI, the RAW and even, will you believe it, MOSSAD are in the game.

Edited by Whisper - 13 November 2008 at 8:57pm
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Quote Duende Replybullet Posted: 14 November 2008 at 3:52am
Whisper, I am as seduced as the next woman by the declaration of woman as a Deputy Assistant Creator. I agree that women in Western society have largely been downgraded from their once respected role as such, to a role as mere 'productive' members of society, where production=wealth creation. I love the idea that women reach self-realisation, satisfaction if you will, by giving birth. But I know that this is simply not true for every woman.

Is it right to sanctify life? Obviously and emphatically yes. But is it right to equate a woman with God? Is it right to sanctify women as deputy creators, as something close to the divine? I think not, this creates some impossible conundrums. God is beyond us, by elevating a woman’s fertility to Godliness, is to place a burden upon her shoulders which no man could bear, let alone a woman. Perhaps this is one reason why we have known no great female prophets. Why did God entrust his message only to men? We know women are not less intellectually capable than men and the old excuse that women ‘have not been allowed to’ be like men works only up to a point. History is dotted with great female writers, artists, musicians, scientists etc. But they are tucked away in the pages of ‘exceptions to the rule’. Their society and circumstances did not allow for their complete recognition and they remain exceptions, and modern women are still trying to have them removed from the exceptions category and simply taken for granted, as we do the few great men.

The feminist push for women's education and eventual consideration as man's equal is confronted by this basic undeniable fact: women bear children and men do not. But what sort of consideration, under your Deputy Creator title do childless women have? The choice not to have children is often conscious and deliberate, not simply due to personal circumstances, or biological 'defects'. In the old days, a childless woman was called 'barren'. To be barren. Imagine the term; a waste land where nothing at all will grow. Imagine being described, your whole self, summing you up as a useless patch of wasteland. Lorca wrote a very powerfull theatre work about a barren woman in deepest Andalucia, called ‘Yerma’, it was inspired and set in a small community here in Almeria. On the other hand, an infertile man receives no similar label, yet I am sure his pain is no less accute.

If western society is to achieve anything more than a semblance of equality and balance between the sexes, then it must ACCEPT women- the feminine- in ALL her aspects. In a debate on Spanish TV after the appointment of a heavily pregnant woman to the post of Defence Secretary, a female journalist said in an intensely passionate and improvised speech: if you want to involve women in every aspect of society, in government, institutions, in the work place etc., you MUST accept her in all her manifestations: single, married, pregnant, mother and not a mother.
This is the basic paradox Western society has yet to embrace (there's not much else you can do with paradoxes ....) it is common knowledge that prospective employers (despite laws requiring complete equality) will rather look for a woman they can be sure will not one day announce her pregnancy and require subsequent paid maternity leave. A sign of the failure of the feminist movement is the fact that often these discriminating employers, are themselves, women

Angela, your dream of taking computers to the women of Afghanistan is wonderful, but it seems similar to taking digital watches to the Guarani tribesmen of the Amazon. Our Western desire to help people we perceive to be backward and lacking is often terribly mistaken in its assumptions, and woefully misguided in its intentions. As Whisper points out, often the women we wish to help by providing them with a key to independence, resent us for actually taking them out from under the protective role of their husbands.

You seem to want to separate the cultural traditions from 'education', you say: "Tribal Culture and Economics need to be separated. Tribal Culture and the access to Education need to be separated. One has to look at their "culture" and see what is important and what has become a tool to oppress"

but I think it is far better to try to incorporate, to include and adapt education within the millenia old traditions of tribal culture, rather than create an 'either or' education. Cultures do not change. Here in Spain there are many many aspects of the culture, at the 'street' level if you like, which are almost exactly as they were during the days of the Moorish rule. That this is so, is hotly denied by such statesmen as our previous president, Aznar, and people totally immersed in the centuries of Arab denialism Spanish society is just starting to come to terms with, and which was instigated by and largely kept alive here, by the Catholic church. But the mere fact that Spaniards go on holiday by the thousands to Muslim lands and find a weird sense of feeling at home, is testament to the persistence of cultural habits, customs, perspectives etc., despite the ravages of time, the efforts of reformers, or the edicts of laws.

.(... I just want to come back and by way of edit, add that I don't condone nore wish to see perpetuated throughout time the barbaric 'customs' perpetrated against women in some tribal cultures! It's just that I do not think one can change many aspects of a culture from the outside ... time has shown that with good governance, and yes, education, societies can rectify their ways: we gave up witch burning quite a few years ago!)

Edited by Duende - 14 November 2008 at 5:47am
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