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Message Icon Topic: Why do muslim countries not have strong economy? Post Reply Post New Topic
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PattyaMainer
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Quote PattyaMainer Replybullet Posted: 12 November 2008 at 4:37am
Originally posted by Hayfa

Can there not be a balance??
 
honestly, you see people, most men and women, now working up to 12 hours in a working day. Supposedly to then have time and energy to enjoy their families.
 
Then you have women who have no access to an education, a basic one of that in parts of the world.  
 
One thing that I noticed in my travels is that for women not facing poverty, they lived, generally, a good communal life.  It is the struggles of women and men in poverty, and who often lack access to education that is where the trouble lies.
 
Yes we need women doctors and teachers. But not everyone can do those jobs. Should women have just as good as education as men, absolutely.
 
But our society has changed, motherhood is less then the"ideal." This is even more so in Europe and othger parts of the world, like Japan where birthrates are declining. Unfortunately one's work is often how we are defined and how we define others.
 
Somewhere we need balance ang give people the basics to survive and yet not become caught up in this dunya.. a fine line I think...
 
Yes, there should be a balance, Hayfa.  I think what concerns me are those women who are starved to learn, to obtain an education.  They are capable of doing many things other than highly professional careers.  Many could successfully operate a safe, high standard day care center for women who are working.  They could learn how to start and run a business of their choosing, such as a bookstore, art supply store, sewing business, etc.  The opportunities are endless for a woman who has an education which will give her the basics of working for herself or at a job which she enjoys and find interesting.  This would help her self-esteem, and bring money into the home to help with household expenses.  Even for women who do not care to work outside the home, an education would enable her to feel she is equal in intelligence to other educated women.  She would enjoy reading about a variety of issues, managing money more efficiently, etc.  I think all women deserve the right to an education, and it is sad that some women are denied that right simply because they are a woman.  I've known women in Eastern Kentucky, not far from where I was raised.  They were not educated then, and they were very sad, unhappy women.  Things are changing there now, but change comes slowly.  I cannot think of any positive or good reason for depriving a woman of an education.
 
God's Peace,
Patty
"FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS POSSIBLE. FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS NECESSARY."
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Angela
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Quote Angela Replybullet Posted: 12 November 2008 at 6:23am
Originally posted by Whisper

Outstanding post, Angela.  I heartily agree.
 
You can agree absolutely as far as your circumstances run, in your set up. But who says that the ENTIRE world is run like the US? And the US conditions apply everywhere?
 
That's where the Amreekanos make absolute mess of things in the world.
 
This post does not apply to our Tribal culture.


Tribal Culture is fine.  There is no reason why adaptation will not benefit the Tribe.  The whole point of a Tribal Structure is to provide a network of support and security.  Tribes were formed in times before formal governments and today are a source of cultural identity.  Many tribal cultures are being lost and do you know who is preserving them?  Members of tribes who have left and become educated and came back to enrich and preserve. 

Just because you introduce education into a society does not mean that captialism and Western society follows.  However, the prevention of education for fear of that encroachment is simply unwise.

For example, many of your countrymen are farmers and livestock traders.  Image how much more productive a man can be if his sons go to college and learn modern agricultural techniques.  The farmers cannot make ends meet in some areas and turn to poppies because the money is better.  But if they could learn to get a better yield from a more Halal crop, how is that not work in a tribal society.  If he becomes more productive, he might be able to hire field workers, thus creating jobs.

The thing is education is never wasted.  I know a dear friend who has a degree in Biochemistry.  She has two daughters and stays at home and does not work.  As soon as the girls were old enough to start to learn to talk, she started to teach them to read.  Her oldest daughter is barely 4 years old and uses a computer, reads easy books and can do basic math.  She is a wonderful child.  I'm sure the youngest who just turned one will be the same way, she's already showing interest in what her sister is doing.

My dream of seeing education flourish in the tribal areas is not to destroy the Tribal society, but to enrich it.  There are still some very stone age customs that thrive in areas where there is little education.  Men who beat their wives (and this happens in poorer areas of the US too...), justice systems that are less based on evidence and fact than social standing and custom, and the abuse of children.

When you look at your family and friends, what do you want to see for them?  Sanitary conditions, schools, hospitals, employment, solid social programs to help the poor and the sick?  Or do you want to see bad roads, poor health and rampant unemployment?

Education is key to bringing prosperity.  Educating women passes these values to their children.  When a woman is educated, she is aware of her worth and she is even more prepared to help her family succeed.  This does work in a tribal society.

I will tell you at times I hear about the "tribal" customs of some regions and I cringe.  The brutality that happened to 3 girls trying to elope and 2 women who only begged for mercy...  done for the honor of the tribe.

Husbands and wives being torn apart in divorce because one was from an inferior tribe. 

In Albania, in the tribal regions, for a woman to have equal rights to a man she had to swear to be an eternal virgin and take on the persona of a man.

In Indonesia a Muslim community clings to pre-Islamic traditions of 5 genders and communicating with the dead. 

In India, tribal regions drag women from their homes and kill them as witches.

These are customs that are unnecessary with education.  They do not fulfill the purpose of a tribe which is to strengthen the family and provide security and support.

Yet, in Dubai, a traditionally tribal region, education is flourishing.  They now have the premier research facility in the world for Autism.  The center was opened by a powerful and educated wife of the Sheikh.  I talk to women from the UAE several times a week at work who are programmers and web designers.

Who provides the medicine to the women in your tribal regions?  I'm sure its not very Kosher to have male doctors doing gynecological exams?

Tribal Culture and Economics need to be separated.  Tribal Culture and the access to Education need to be separated.  One has to look at their "culture" and see what is important and what has become a tool to oppress.

In the old country, no one would think a thing if my great-grandfather drank himself st**id and beat my grandmother.  There she was just property and should know her place.  Here, her son's were educated and they stood up to their father and told him to clean up his act.  Her life improved because of education.  Even if it was indirectly.  I think you've fallen into the trap of using "tradition" as excuse.
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Hayfa
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Quote Hayfa Replybullet Posted: 12 November 2008 at 11:02am
I agree with you Angela. Unfortunately do to peoples' actions, outsiders who show no respect to other peoples' values, they are ineffective.
 
Education is one aspect to ending violence. Just one. one needs to work within the cultural construct. When I was in Pakistan I met a foreign woman trying to help women who were vicitms of violence using western models. That did not work.  Instead she should o her reseach, respect the culture and needs of people, use other models from other cultures instead of imposing our model.
 
 
 
 
When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi
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Quote Whisper Replybullet Posted: 12 November 2008 at 12:47pm

Angela

We have had a long debate going in our part of the world about the difference between education and schooling. We have had some great scholars digging at it for almost good few decades.

Schooling just trains a person to become a consumer.

Education is something different and nobler, my own Foundation educates women but with a slightly different view we may have in the US.

 

Its a proven fact that when a woman has an education, her children prosper better than women who do not have an education.  This goes directly towards her ability to raise them.

 

Prosper needs to be defined.

Prosper in what sense?

Also, women who have an education fare better when tragedy strikes the family.  I point out often about the time when my husband hurt his back and I became the only income in the home.  If I hadn't been educated, we would have been homeless and destitute.
I agree with you more than 100%.

That’s of utmost importance in the US and in all those countries where life has been reduced to a man, his wife and, if they can afford, a kid or two. In these set ups (I find it hard to call these societies) the greatest responsibility we have is to our Mortgage, to the Money Lender who owns our house.

 

But no one becomes homeless in cultures where traditional family housing is available to the whole clan or the tribe.


In the uncertainty of war and famine, women with educations will fare better if something happens to her husband. She will not be reduced to begging in the streets.
In a healthy society I have never seen anyone being reduced to begging in the streets. In the cultures I am talking about, out of my own experience, a man and a woman don’t get married, two families and a whole set of clans get married and share responsibility not just of the woman but all her family.


 A society where the women are educated will florish. 
Shall I ask you just one question?

We have a lot of schooled women in the US, what society have we got there?

 

A perfect example of this is the Golden Age of Islam.  Khadija was a merchant, Aisha memorized the Quran and more Hadith than any other.  It was the women who supported Muhammed (pbuh) and it was they who carried it forward. 

I have never for one moment discouraged women from education and ventures as long as she just doesn’t turn into some Honorary Man!


If the Middle East and Central Asia want to rise from poverty, education needs to be provided to all children. 

Angela, the Middle East and the Central Asian States are some of the richest in the world. They have real money, liquid cash, their money doesn’t exist just on their computer screens.

 

Its not about trotting women out and making them slaves of a two income household.  Its preparing them for disasters and helping them to strengthen their community. 
So, a woman can strengthen a community by just playing some part time mother?


Sasha, you are so quick to jump in and enjoy when Duende, Mariyah and myself are online.  But, I come from a poor family...  I would not be able to be here had I been born in some areas of Africa or Asia.  My mother would not have had a high school education and she would not have been able to make sure that her two daughters got a college education.
I like education, I just fail to consider it noble if it’s just aimed at productivity, better prospect and more dollars. In fact, I find it out right vulgar.

The prosperous nations do not ignore the contributions from half their populations.  Malaysia is a prime example.  You look at pictures from around Kuala Lampur and you see women in Hijab walking around the business centers with briefcases. 
Great! In fact, I love Malaysia, long story. But is a Business Centre the only thing that nurtures society?


I want to see the Muslim world succeed in pulling itself out of poverty. 

My friend, if the Muslim world is rife with such poverty then why is Uncle Sam and their cousins from the other side of the Atlantic are trying do hard to get into it by hook or crook and at such an expense of blood and money?

 

I told my husband I have a dream of taking the "$100 Laptops" and going to Afghanistan and teaching young girls how to utilize this glory of technology to prosper.  Maybe if God grants me the resources, someday I can do that.  How wonderful would it be for a young woman to provide the education and resources so that her sons and daughters can go to college.  Or how a young farm wife would be able to help her husband by researching modern farming techniques and finding international buyers over the internet? 
How will she ever go on line in Afghanistan?

Plus how can anyone ever find foreign buyers for anything? The western countries have an embargo. Plus, I have experience of our women, they like their men to look after them.

 

It may be very hard for people at the other end of the Great Divide (Rudyard Kipling) to understand that some women do enjoy being Full Time mothers. All the women know, they do. And a 3.4 million strong sample must carry some weight.


Poverty leads to instability, war and corruption. Education is a tool to get out of poverty.  It shouldn't be denied to anyone.

I am sorry, I had always thought that the US was quite an educated country. The largest numbers of wars are started by the US, directly or as their proxies.

 

Tribal Culture is fine.  There is no reason why adaptation will not benefit the Tribe. 

Our experience is that imported concepts don’t grow in our cultures. In my world the tribe has not become something of collector interest as yet.


Western society follows. 

Society is a very different thing than the set up that has grown in the industrialised countries.


For example, many of your countrymen are farmers and livestock traders.  Image how much more productive a man can be if his sons go to college and learn modern agricultural techniques. 

In some places life doesn’t just flow with productivity. In a SOCIETY there are many other ingredients.

 
My dream of seeing education flourish in the tribal areas is not to destroy the Tribal society, but to enrich it. 

How do we enrich society? Just by making it more productive?

 

When you look at your family and friends, what do you want to see for them?  Sanitary conditions, schools, hospitals, employment, solid social programs to help the poor and the sick?  Or do you want to see bad roads, poor health and rampant unemployment?
Honest, good governance is needed for these things.

Education is key to bringing prosperity.  Educating women passes these values to their children.  When a woman is educated, she is aware of her worth and she is even more prepared to help her family succeed.  This does work in a tribal society.
We will need to define; Prosperity, Worth and Success.

These values are not exactly the same in every part of the world. In some countries, a woman’s worth is defined by how many kids she has and how they INTERACT with the people around.

 
The brutality that happened to 3 girls trying to elope and 2 women who only begged for mercy...  done for the honor of the tribe.
That was sad and the most unusual of a tribe, it was more because the chaps were politically well connected.
 
These are customs that are unnecessary with education.  They do not fulfill the purpose of a tribe which is to strengthen the family and provide security and support.
Angela, education for better behaviour is one thing, schooling for prosperity is just a wee different.
Who provides the medicine to the women in your tribal regions?  I'm sure its not very Kosher to have male doctors doing gynecological exams?
They have an interesting traditional medication system – free of Pharma Giants exploitation – we have loads of health visitors. Please, try and understand, I am not against noble education. I have a problem with vulgarity of schooling aimed at increased dollar production.


I think you've fallen into the trap of using "tradition" as excuse.

I could not have done that even if I tried my best, I have been educated in Europe, have always lived here, at least a good 5 months of my life. Angela, I had tried a few interesting projects when I was forced in to a position my father never accepted, for whatever reasons. I reached the point that the women in this part of the world want their men to look after them!

I learnt my lesson and left them to it.

Sasha Khanzadeh
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Angela
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Quote Angela Replybullet Posted: 12 November 2008 at 1:24pm
I should define what I call prosperity.  Its not wealth... 

One can be rich without being wealthy.  My husband and I have a little car and an old SUV for the winter.  We have a modest 2 bedroom house that we rent and most of our furniture is bought from IKEA and other discounted furniture stores.  I consider us prosperous.  We are not wealthy... we struggle in a poor economy, but I have enough money for food on the table and we have money for taking care of ourselves.

I see every winter massive amounts of food aid going into areas that are poor...  The people there do not have enough resources to provide for their families.  They may have one meal per day and its not very nutritious.

This is what I mean about bringing prosperity.  Good jobs don't bring wealth, they bring a means to provide for a family.  Prosperity is the farms producing enough food for the people in the area and the people in the area being able to afford (even through barter) to purchase that food.

Enrich - what I mean by enrich society is by innovation.  Muslim scholars brought us algebra, astronomy, poetry, innovations in cryptology and medicine.  These innovations came from men and women who lived in the security of a Tribal community with traditional values.

Its true that governments in the Middle East are wealthy.  But, the average person is not as well off.  Men and women in Bahrain require help from their Sultan for welfare and that is the richest country in the world.  

Pakistan is suffering from a split personality.  On one hand, they are growing and on the other, inflation and poverty are hurting the poorest of citizens.

I find it a bit of a paradox that we are so maligned by the rest of the world for our excesses, yet I see 1000s coming here every year for an opportunity they do not have in their home countries.

There are those of us here in the US that would like things to be much simpler.  I think we are feeling the pain of that excess with our collapsing economy.  Greedy people buying homes they could not afford and greedy lenders taking advantage of people who don't understand the complicated world of mortgages.

It would be nice to live with my family for 10 years and have the money to buy a house outright.  However, I feel that I would have killed my father in law in that amount of time... LOL   It would be nice to be able to go to my sisters house and drop off my children if I had to work.  Or watch her children if she had to work. 

I do feel you are being a bit optimistic that women don't fall through the cracks.  Her father may be dead, she may have had no brothers or sons...  Everyone else is marriageable in Islamic society.  I would maybe be able to go live with a cousin or even my inlaws if I were widowed because in this country marrying your cousin is illegal.  A muslim woman does not have those choices.  She must quickly get married if she has no mahrams and society has not provided for her to be self-sufficient.

I want to stay home when I have my first child and while they are too young to go to school.  That is a desire of almost every woman.  However, the idea that opening opportunity is a bad thing... that is beyond me.

Perhaps its just that Afghanistan has been repeatedly smashed for nearly 30 years that things are so completely off kilter there.
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Quote Angela Replybullet Posted: 12 November 2008 at 1:31pm
Hayfa,

That is one of the reasons why I would like to someday go to those areas and help women learn to use a computer.

An Afghani woman doesn't want to go out and work like a man.  I don't blame her.  But she might be able to learn how to sell her sewing online all over the world and help provide for her family.  Or she might even be able to work from home as a computer programmer or web designer and it would allow her to tend her children without worry about babysitters and daycare.  Not to mention how she could help her children with their schooling using that same computer.

I would not counsel a domestic violence victim in that part of the world the same way I would here.  Instead of the "leave the bum" line that women get here.  It would be more geared to her culture, her religion and her opportunities.
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Quote abuayisha Replybullet Posted: 12 November 2008 at 1:35pm
Originally posted by Angela


It would be nice to live with my family for 10 years and have the money to buy a house outright.  However, I feel that I would have killed my father in law in that amount of time... LOL  
 
Really?!  For some reason I thought only mother-in-laws were problematic.
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Quote Angela Replybullet Posted: 12 November 2008 at 1:44pm
I don't have a mother in law, she passed before we were married.  However, my father in law is ummm, how to put this nicely.....  insane.  Wacko

I adore him.  I love him like a father, but we have very different personalities and opinions.LOL
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