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Islam for non-Muslims
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Ron Webb
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 01 May 2008 at 4:41pm
Originally posted by abuzaid

So, I agree that atheist are liars, or they believe in God, but they just don't believe that they believe?
I was being sarcastic, but apparently you aren't.  If you truly believe that all atheists (and that would probably include me) are liars, then maybe I should just call it quits before I say something I'll regret. Angry And if you are pretending you know what I believe better than I do, that's not much better.
 
If shirk can't be forgiven, then the whole preaching of Islam is in vain.
No, those who are born into Islamic families are safe, but most of the population of the world (never mind the Arabian peninsula) are doomed.  If that makes you uncomfortable, well, frankly it should; but you can't just make up an escape clause about repentance to get around it.  If it isn't in the Quran, you can't add it yourself to satisfy your own sense of horror at the implications.
 
Personally, my own escape clause is that I don't think that anyone can be said to "set up partners with Allah" if they don't believe in Allah to begin with.  And I think it's nonsense (not to mention arrogance) to argue that everyone believes in Allah, even if they don't believe that they believe.
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seekshidayath
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Quote seekshidayath Replybullet Posted: 01 May 2008 at 11:26pm
Brother Abu Zaid said :
At time it is possible that a claimed atheist may not understand his own thinking process. What I have mentioned above may not be a conscious decision, but may be it is something in their non-conscious.

Very true brother. It is proven right here.

Ronn Webb said :
The verse doesn't say anything about repenting, and I would have thought that repentance is a prerequisite to forgiveness anyway.  Is there some other verse in the Quran that suggests to you that shirk can be forgiven if the sinner repents?

Read these verses

53. Say: "O My servants who have transgressed against themselves! Despair not of the mercy of Allah, verily, Allah forgives all sins. Truly, He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
54. "And turn in repentance (and in obedience with true faith) to your Lord and submit to Him before the torment comes upon you, (and) then you will not be helped.
55. "And follow the best of that which is sent down to you from your Lord, before the torment comes on you suddenly while you perceive not!
.
This Ayah is a call to all sinners, be they disbelievers or others, to repent and turn to Allah. This Ayah tells us that Allah, may He be blessed and exalted, will forgive all the sins of those who repent to Him and turn back to Him, no matter what or how many his sins are, even if they are like the foam of the sea. This cannot be interpreted as meaning that sins will be forgiven without repentance, because Shirk can only be forgiven for the one who repents from it.

Al-Bukhari recorded that Ibn `Abbas, may Allah be pleased with him, said that some of the people of Shirk killed many people and committed Zina (illegal sexual acts) to a great extent; they came to Muhammad and said, "What you are saying and calling us to is good; if only you could tell us that there is an expiation for what we have done.''

Then the following verses were revealed
And those who invoke not any other god along with Allah, nor kill such person as Allah has forbidden, except for just cause, nor commit illegal sexual intercourse

Say: "O My servants who have transgressed against themselves! Despair not of the mercy of Allah

Except those who repent and believe, and do righteous deeds  (25:70)

Prophet {Pbuh} said, ""O My servants who have transgressed against themselves! Despair not of the mercy of Allah, verily, Allah forgives all sins He does not reckon him Truly, He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.'' .This  indicates that what is meant is that Allah forgives all sins provided that a person repents. Additionally, one must not despair of the mercy of Allah even if his sins are many and great, for the door of repentance and mercy is expansive.

Rest part, Bro. Abu Zaid shall answer you in his best way

 
Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: “All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."
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abuzaid
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Quote abuzaid Replybullet Posted: 02 May 2008 at 9:11am
Ron, I don't see a point in contunuing with this discussion. You started it with your understanding of Islamic beliefs which we believe is not true. It is of no use to prove you or I wrong. Things are getting personal here instead of discussing the actual issue. I am trying to prove that you are in the state of denial because of your desires and you are trying to prove that I am wrong.
I would like just to clear some point you raised in you previous point.
 
Originally posted by Ron Webb

If you truly believe that all atheists (and that would probably include me) are liars,
Some are liars and some are suffering from denial. Kindly read my posts properly.
This is what I said
"At time it is possible that a claimed atheist may not understand his own thinking process. What I have mentioned above may not be a conscious decision, but may be it is something in their non-conscious.
 
Originally posted by Ron Webb

No, those who are born into Islamic families are safe, but most of the population of the world (never mind the Arabian peninsula) are doomed.  If that makes you uncomfortable, well, frankly it should; but you can't just make up an escape clause about repentance to get around it.  If it isn't in the Quran, you can't add it yourself to satisfy your own sense of horror at the implications.
Seekshidayah, have made it clear in the previous post.
 
Read the verse of Quran in sequence.
25:68 Those who invoke not, with Allah, any other god, nor slay such life as Allah has made sacred except for just cause, nor commit fornication; - and any that does this (not only) meets punishment.
25:69 (But) the Penalty on the Day of Judgment will be doubled to him, and he will dwell therein in ignominy,-
25:70 Unless he repents, believes, and works righteous deeds, for Allah will change the evil of such persons into good, and Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful,
 
Can you see that, these verses are clear that act of shirk, muder and fornication can be forgiven in case of repentance.
 
Further, what I said is something you choose to ignore. I said, whole Da'wah of Islam is in vain if shirk can't be forgiven by repentance! If that is the case why did Prophet Mohammed PBUH give da'wah to mushriks of Makkah?
 
Finally, do you think this a good way to make argument with muslims? You mean, you assume a meaning of verse of Quran and believe that in the last 1400 years none of the muslims understood the proper meaning of that verse in Quran and start arguing with us with your understanding of Quran. 
 
Don't you think it is better for you to ask about Islam rather than teaching us our own religion??
Originally posted by Ron Webb

Personally, my own escape clause is that I don't think that anyone can be said to "set up partners with Allah" if they don't believe in Allah to begin with.  And I think it's nonsense (not to mention arrogance) to argue that everyone believes in Allah, even if they don't believe that they believe.
Well, Allah has given you choice to believe so. I too reserve my right to reject your understanding. I believe that human by nature is believer of Allah. Let us go with it. I have made my point clear and you too have made you point clear. Readers of this forum are intelligent enough to make their choice.
 
I am not going to continue with this thread until I feel that some misconception has to be cleared.
 
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Ron Webb
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 02 May 2008 at 5:35pm

Originally posted by abuzaid

Don't you think it is better for you to ask about Islam rather than teaching us our own religion??

That is quite an ironic remark from someone who has spent much of the previous discussion trying to convince me that he knows what Hindus, atheists and others believe better than they do themselves.

Let's look at the passage you quoted (25:68-70) in even larger context:

25:63  And the servants of (Allah) Most Gracious are those who walk on the earth in humility, and when the ignorant address them, they say, "Peace!";
25:64  Those who spend the night in adoration of their Lord prostrate and standing;
25:65  Those who say, "Our Lord! avert from us the Wrath of Hell, for its Wrath is indeed an affliction grievous,-
25:66  "Evil indeed is it as an abode, and as a place to rest in";
25:67  Those who, when they spend, are not extravagant and not niggardly, but hold a just (balance) between those (extremes);
25:68  Those who invoke not, with Allah, any other god, nor slay such life as Allah has made sacred except for just cause, nor commit fornication; - and any that does this (not only) meets punishment.
25:69  (But) the Penalty on the Day of Judgment will be doubled to him, and he will dwell therein in ignominy,-
25:70  Unless he repents, believes, and works righteous deeds, for Allah will change the evil of such persons into good, and Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful,
25:71  And whoever repents and does good has truly turned to Allah with an (acceptable) conversion;-
25:72  Those who witness no falsehood, and, if they pass by futility, they pass by it with honourable (avoidance);
25:73  Those who, when they are admonished with the Signs of their Lord, droop not down at them as if they were deaf or blind;
25:74  And those who pray, "Our Lord! Grant unto us wives and offspring who will be the comfort of our eyes, and give us (the grace) to lead the righteous."
25:75  Those are the ones who will be rewarded with the highest place in heaven, because of their patient constancy: therein shall they be met with salutations and peace,
25:76  Dwelling therein;- how beautiful an abode and place of rest!

The passage gives a long list of virtues to strive for and sins to avoid.  Inserted in the midst of that list is a parenthetical warning (which I have coloured blue for clarity) that for one sin in particular ("any that does this", 25:68), the penalty is doubled, unless the sinner repents.  That one sin is the last one mentioned: fornication.  If 25:70-71 was intended to refer to the last several sins (i.e., to include shirk, which is three sins back in the list), 25:68 would have to say "any that does these".

Granted, the passage might be slightly different in the original Arabic, but the most you could hope to show is that 25:70 directly contradicts 4:48, which unequivocally states that shirk cannot be forgiven, period.  This contradiction would call into question the infallibility of the Quran.  You don't want to go there, do you?
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 02 May 2008 at 5:50pm
Originally posted by seekshidayath

Read these verses

53. Say: "O My servants who have transgressed against themselves! Despair not of the mercy of Allah, verily, Allah forgives all sins. Truly, He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
54. "And turn in repentance (and in obedience with true faith) to your Lord and submit to Him before the torment comes upon you, (and) then you will not be helped.
55. "And follow the best of that which is sent down to you from your Lord, before the torment comes on you suddenly while you perceive not!
.
This Ayah is a call to all sinners, be they disbelievers or others, to repent and turn to Allah.

Yes it does, but you'll notice that it refers only to those "who have transgressed against themselves" (and I suppose fornication would be an ideal example of that).  Shirk is surely on a higher level, a transgression against Allah Himself.
 
Again, as I said to abuzaid, maybe it is slightly different in the original Arabic, but if you think it means that even shirk can be forgiven, then you have to explain why 4:48 specifically says that it cannot, and how it is that the words of Allah can contradict one another.
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Quote seekshidayath Replybullet Posted: 03 May 2008 at 4:36am

Ronn webb said :

Yes it does, but you'll notice that it refers only to those "who have transgressed against themselves" (and I suppose fornication would be an ideal example of that).  Shirk is surely on a higher level, a transgression against Allah Himself.

It does n't matter, what you or me suppose. For we believers, it matters that what  Quran and sunnah teaches us.


Look Ronn, to understand Quran we need to study its commentary, which tells us as when was that verse revealed and is supported by hadith and thus explains, which helps us gain a better understanding of that verse. You have ommited the hadith which was discussed there. Read its first part again here.

Al-Bukhari recorded that Ibn `Abbas, may Allah be pleased with him, said that some of the people of Shirk killed many people and committed Zina (illegal sexual acts) to a great extent; they came to Muhammad and said, "What you are saying and calling us to is good; if only you could tell us that there is an expiation for what we have done.'' ------.

NOTE THOSE IN BOLD AND COLORED FOR YOU. Those people commited all the major sins. Apart from fornification, shirk and murder are also major sins.One who commits sins trangress against his ownself. He drags himself towards hell. 

Ronn Webb said :
 but if you think it means that even shirk can be forgiven, then you have to explain why 4:48 specifically says that it cannot, and how it is that the words of Allah can contradict one another.

Its not that i think. Its the Quran and hadith that explain us and we obey it. They are n't contradicting. Just read below explanation.

4 :48. Verily, Allah forgives not that partners should be set up with Him (in worship), but He forgives except that to whom He wills; and whoever sets up partners with Allah in worship, he has indeed invented a tremendous sin

As said we need to go thru its commentary. I don't think that you shall be accepting it since you are n't willing so. TO benefit other readers ,{especially as its  posted at non-muslim section} , so that they  shall not get into any misconception, here it is. Am merely repeating the gyst of brother AbuZaid's post..

Here is the commentary of Ibn Kathir for the verse 4 :48

Verily, Allah  forgives not that partners should be set up with Him (in worship),) meaning, He does not forgive a servant if he meets Him while he is associating partners with Him, (but He forgives except that) of sins, (to whom He wills) of His servants.

Imam Ahmad recorded that Abu Dharr said that the Messenger of Allah said, Allah said, "O My servant! As long as you worship and beg Me, I will forgive you, no matter your shortcomings. O My servant! If you meet Me with the earth's fill of sin, yet you do not associate any partners with Me, I will meet you with its fill of forgiveness.''

This hadith explains us that while in the state that we meet Allah swt,  if we do repent and not associate any partners , we shall be forgiven.

I don't understand, when Allah swt is the Forgiver and is ready to forgive any of our sins when repented, then what's your problem. Why are you creating fuss about it. Its so simple here that even major sins like shirk are also forgiven. And why does it matter when Allah swt specifically says or general. Few minds need specific reminders and few understand them in general.  Its the style of Quran!!!

Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: “All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 04 May 2008 at 7:09pm
Originally posted by seekshidayath

This hadith explains us that while in the state that we meet Allah swt,  if we do repent and not associate any partners , we shall be forgiven.
 
Therefore this hadith directly contradicts the Quran (4:48) and cannot be accurate and authentic.
 
I don't understand, when Allah swt is the Forgiver and is ready to forgive any of our sins when repented, then what's your problem. Why are you creating fuss about it.
 
I'm not creating a fuss.  I started this discussion to find out what Muslims think shirk means.  Unfortunately, I've only got two or three opinions; and those opinions either contradict Allah's own words in the Quran, or they make the frankly ridiculous assumption that I actually believe in Allah, even though I don't know it.
 
So I don't really know where to go from here.  Ermm
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Quote seekshidayath Replybullet Posted: 05 May 2008 at 12:10am

You need not go anywhere Ronn Smile

Read the same verse.

Verily, Allah forgives not that partners should be set up with Him (in worship), but He forgives except that to whom He wills; and whoever sets up partners with Allah in worship, he has indeed invented a tremendous sin.

Now, carefully read again  - partners shud be  SET  up with Him. And the other part  - whoever SETS UP partners with Allah swt.


They  are in "present tense".  It would have been better if you and me understand Arabic, which is a beautiful language. In Arabic "tenses" matters  a lot.   I would catch up a member who can understand Arabic. Till then ----
 
But yes, final word, while meeting Allah swt, if he is in the state that he did not repent and associated partners with Allah i.e , in the state of shirk then he shall be punished. Hope, atleast NOW, you understand it. May Allah swt, give all of us its understanding. Smile


Edited by seekshidayath - 05 May 2008 at 12:16am
Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: “All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."
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