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Interfaith Dialogue
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Message Icon Topic: Seems like a false statement. Please explain. Post Reply Post New Topic
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Ron Webb
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 01 May 2008 at 7:21pm
Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt

Well, if some people will believe and some will reject then they are clearly given the choice to do so.
 
That is not clear at all.  Some computers run Microsoft Windows and some do not.  This isn't a "choice" -- it's how they were designed.
 
Do you believe that some outside force has made you a skeptic and is even at this moment putting thoughts into your head? That you do not have the intelligence or moral compass to choose right from wrong? That you have no personal responsibilty for your actions? Do you believe that what you believe is what YOU believe, or are you being forced to believe it? 
 
I believe that I was fortunate enough to have been born to parents who encouraged me to think for myself and to explore beliefs other than their own.  If I had been born to Muslim parents in a repressive Muslim society, I have no doubt that I would have become a devout Muslim myself, and the ideas that I currently believe would have been anathema to me.
 
At some point you have to realise that you have intelligence, an internal moral compass, the ability to judge right from wrong, and personal responsibility for the choices you make. If you have no cognizant realisation of these facts you are probably a sociopath or worse... 
 
That internal moral compass, and the standards by which I judge right from wrong, were placed in my head by others and/or developed as a result of circumstances that I have observed or experienced in the past.  I'm sure a Muslim who commits terrorism also has a moral compass, which points in a very different direction from my own.  To him, he is virtue personified while I am probably a sociopath or worse.  This is the way he and I are both made.  We did not choose to be who we are.  *****
 
Let me state again, for the record: I too believe in free will.  However, I recognize that I am not a "blank slate", that in some respects my choices are at least partly predetermined and influenced by externalities; and I can understand the point of view that sees free will as completely illusory.


Edited by peacemaker - 02 May 2008 at 10:35am
Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
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myahya
 
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Quote myahya Replybullet Posted: 02 May 2008 at 4:08am
I believe that there is neither absolute free will nor absolute predetermination but something in the middle. However, I have to say that Allah's prior knowledge of our actions would not necessitate that we are whether free or not at all. The fact that Allah swt is all-knowing doesn’t prove any of them.
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Shasta'sAunt
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Quote Shasta'sAunt Replybullet Posted: 02 May 2008 at 7:55am
I think people believe what they want to believe.  If you want to believe that you are a victim of external influences and not completely in charge of the decisions you make that is your choice.  I have seen too many people rise above circumstances that are truly horrific to believe this myself.
 
To compare human free will to computer programming is rather a stretch. The programmers don't punish the computers for running the programs they installed. 
I do not believe for one minute that God "designed" some people to be disbelievers and then punishes them for disbelieving.
God has clearly stated that you will be punished for what your own hands have wrought, not what you are preprogrammed to do.
 
I can honestly say that little of what I believe to be right or wrong was put into my head by others, and I thank God for that almost daily. I am quite happy to have an independent mind and the ability to judge for myself. This is what led me to Islam, where I can be as repressed and controlled as I so choose.
 
 
“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt
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Quote Farooqui Replybullet Posted: 02 May 2008 at 9:40am
...don't we all have a choice but just find ourselves at different starting points? (The distance to the shore may vary but we might be carried by the same wave) 
"...Allah chooses to Himself those whom He pleases, and guides to Himself those who turn (to Him)." 42:13
 
So the choice is for us to turn to God initially and thereby deserving His guidance.
 


Edited by Farooqui - 02 May 2008 at 9:44am
The most excellent Jihad is that for the conquest of the self. (Bukhari)
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Shasta'sAunt
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Quote Shasta'sAunt Replybullet Posted: 02 May 2008 at 6:03pm
Originally posted by myahya

I believe that there is neither absolute free will nor absolute predetermination but something in the middle. However, I have to say that Allah's prior knowledge of our actions would not necessitate that we are whether free or not at all. The fact that Allah swt is all-knowing doesn’t prove any of them.
 
There are some things that are predetermined: where and when we will be born, who our parents will be, when we will die. That we are born on the earth and subject to Allah's laws of nature...  The very fact that Allah did not give us a choice about having free will to begin with.  But these are external factors.
 
The choices that we make within the confines of these external factors are all ours to make.  If we are born into poverty we can choose to let it defeat us or we can choose to rise above it. Perhaps not monetarily, but with our spirit.  The same with a handicap, etc...
 
The old saying: you can't control what other people will do, only your reaction to it, is appropo here. We can't control the external factors that Allah has given us, but we can control our reactions to them.
“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt
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Ron Webb
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 02 May 2008 at 6:12pm
Originally posted by Farooqui

...don't we all have a choice but just find ourselves at different starting points?  
So is it just a wild coincidence that the vast majority of Muslims had Muslim parents, and the vast majority of Christians come from Christian families, etc.?  You don't see any empirical evidence that people's beliefs (religious and otherwise) are strongly influenced by their upbringing?
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Israfil
 
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Quote Israfil Replybullet Posted: 02 May 2008 at 10:40pm
I'll be responding shortly give me a sec
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BMZ
 
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Quote BMZ Replybullet Posted: 03 May 2008 at 7:04am
Originally posted by believer

 
Matthew 15
1Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked, 2"Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don't wash their hands before they eat!"

 3Jesus replied, "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? 4For God said, 'Honor your father and mother' and 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.' 5But you say that if a man says to his father or mother, 'Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is a gift devoted to God,' 6he is not to 'honor his father' with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. 7You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:
 8" 'These people honor me with their lips,
      but their hearts are far from me.
 9They worship me in vain;
      their teachings are but rules taught by men.'"

 10Jesus called the crowd to him and said, "Listen and understand. 11What goes into a man's mouth does not make him 'unclean,' but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him 'unclean.' "

Matthew 19
 Jesus replied, " 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, 19honor your father and mother,' and 'love your neighbor as yourself.'"
 
Jesus as sinless being came to magnify, or fill completely full, the meaning of God's law.
 
You missed the point- 12The law is not based on faith;
 
"Falling short of the law leads to death. At this we diverge from all other religions on earth. Do you realize that according to just these two scriptures not only are we cursed, but so are all religions that depend upon living up to the law? Because they depend on obeying the law for salvation – whether God’s law or any other law – they are cursed."
 
Hello. Believer
 
I wrote the following on another site and append it below for your reading pleasure. We must remember that Jesus used Tu Quoque and never gave a straight answer to anything. We find him doing that very often. There was nothing bad in doing that. He used to irritate his adversaries. Please enjoy the following. Hope you like it. It is no use quoting a few verses. I prefer reading an entire section.
 
Let us look at the following from Matthew 15. This is an important passage written but extremely misinterpreted by Christians and allows them to eat anything, thus breaking the Law of food permitted, which in turn, meant disobeying the Law of God Almighty.

Quote:
Matthew 15

1Then some Pharisees and scribes came to Jesus (B)from Jerusalem and said,

2"Why do Your disciples break the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread."

3And He answered and said to them, "Why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?

4"For God said, 'HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER,' and, HE WHO SPEAKS EVIL OF FATHER OR MOTHER IS TO BE PUT TO DEATH.'

5"But you say, 'Whoever says to his father or mother, "Whatever I have that would help you has been given to God,"

6he is not to honor his father or his mother[a].' And by this you invalidated the word of God for the sake of your tradition.

7"You hypocrites, rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you:
8'THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS,
BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME.
9'BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME,
TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.'"

10After Jesus called the crowd to Him, He said to them, "Hear and understand.

11"It is not what enters into the mouth that defiles the man, but what proceeds out of the mouth, this defiles the man."

12Then the disciples came and said to Him, "Do You know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this statement?"

13But He answered and said, "Every plant which My heavenly Father did not plant shall be uprooted.

14"Let them alone; they are blind guides of the blind And if a blind man guides a blind man, both will fall into a pit."

The Heart of Man
15Peter said to Him, "Explain the parable to us."
16Jesus said, "Are you still lacking in understanding also?

17"Do you not understand that everything that goes into the mouth passes into the stomach, and is eliminated?

18"But the things that proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and those defile the man.

19"For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders.

20"These are the things which defile the man; but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile the man."


The question asked by the Pharisees was: "Why do Your disciples break the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread."

That was the question and finally, the answer was "These are the things which defile the man; but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile the man."

In other words, Jesus said it was okay to eat with unwashed or dirty hands.

Did the Pharisees ask,"Is everything lawful for your disciples/followers to eat? No such question was asked. The question had nothing to do with getting permission to eat non-kosher or haram food or unlawful food.

Jesus' message was to talk properly, kindly, nicely and politely as harsh and dirty words coming out of the mouth of a person, could be filthier than the food that was eliminated.

Even Peter could not understand. And what happened after that? All food became lawful. Instead of an iota, an entire "I" of the Law was changed due to overzealous reporting by the gospel writer and the misinterpretation . Rolling%20Eyes

Let us also take a look at this, which the disciples, Paul and other founders of Christianity forgot to remember. I have made the fonts to appear in dark blue:


7"You hypocrites, rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you:
8'THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS,
BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME.
9'BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME,
TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.'"

Isaiah's prophecy came true through the lips of Jesus, when various doctrines such as trinity, hypostatic union and incarnation came up through the percepts of men. Did they not?

BMZ



Edited by BMZ - 03 May 2008 at 7:05am
Shasta's Aunt: "Well, there's the difference you see. The Bible was written by man about God, The Quran was revealed to man by God."
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