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Interfaith Dialogue
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Message Icon Topic: Seems like a false statement. Please explain. Post Reply Post New Topic
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Israfil
 
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Quote Israfil Replybullet Posted: 05 May 2008 at 9:54am
Firs toff in the last part of your previous comment what does homosexuality have to do with anything? I've clearly stated in the other thread that it is not a matter of choice, if you want to argue your point there then do so but I found the end part of you rcomment not relevant here...
 
As far as the daleel you are looking for I don't have time to look up word for word to refute your point.
 
Ithe major fallacies I see in your argument is saying god is All-knowing yet state he transcends our knowledge of him. this doesn't make sense because it is obvious we comprehend what "All-knowing" is yet in the same context you say we don't know what All-knowing is because it is not our definition. It is either he is All-knowing in the context we understand or not.
 
If God is All-knowing and knows past, present, and future and knows our destination before we do it is PROBLEMATIC on will. This doesn't take into account the biological, environmental and other external limitations God has set for us, but the metaphysical is definitely important here. Like I said, free action is action without limitation (which means independent of any external forces) and if God already knows I will sin at 10:00am I am only fulfilling in our world, what God knows. I have repeated this several times
 
You ask How does God knowing necessitate our lack of Freewill.....
 
If God is the designer of the universe he knows when, why, and how it will operate. Prior to the universe's existence he knew he would create a universe and knew its qualities and knew that in this solar system Earth would be the destination in which he would show life forms his wonderous works. God's foreknowledge of events itself have determined what will be. He knows who will be in heaven and hell before it actually happens in our 'time' so regardless of what I do on this earth God already knows my destination.
 
Many scholars say well only sincere prayer can mediate what happens in the future is also fallacious because that means God's mind can change when it is law which is also problematic for doctrinal faiths. The reason being is because we can say that God's laws are not concrete but can be subject to change as God wills and if this is true then there is no concrete standard of divine law since, ultimately, it is up to God. Personally I find the latter to be true.
 
I don't think i personally choose something if God already knows what the effect is. True, God may not personally act upon my behalf but the fact that god knows the end result means I've already perform the action in God's mind so how are my actions Free? I'm still limited by God knowing them because of his knowledge. In addition to this problem is intervention.
 
since you brought up homsexuality let's look at it this way. Since it is indeed proven to be innate and not choice, much like heterosexuality, if god finds homsexuality to be a sin why not intervene and stop this innate feeling? Or why even design it? It doesn't seem smart for a deity to create what he hates and then commands people to stop this 'innate' feeling. So if it is not choice and if god cares and loves us why not violate his own law of so-called freewill and intervene? Either way there is no freedom so by God intervening it wouldn't make a difference. So many questions.
 
 


Edited by Israfil - 05 May 2008 at 9:54am
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peacemaker
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Quote peacemaker Replybullet Posted: 05 May 2008 at 10:46am
Everyone,
 
It is very important to comply with guidelines. And in religious matters, you must bring evidence to confirm your statements, please. 
Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?
Qur'an 55:13
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Quote Shasta'sAunt Replybullet Posted: 05 May 2008 at 10:29pm
Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt

IS:
This is from the article link that you posted to refudiate what I have been saying. Sound familiar???   Thank you for pasting a link to an artcle that backs up everything that I have said, almost verbatim.   
 
 
"From an Islamic point of view, human beings are free for all practical purposes. A person has no excuse for making the wrong choice and then blaming qadar or destiny, any more than a man punching his fist into a wall can blame the laws of nature. He knew the consequences of his actions for all practical purposes and he shouldn’t expect a miracle!

We should not worry about what Allah has written for us, since we can never know it. But our duty is to strive for the best in this world and the next. Then, good results will follow, if Allah wills.

As for the question of whether humans are predestined to enter Paradise or Hell, we must remember that Allah transcends the limits of time. He is All-Knowing of the past, present and future. Thus He knows in advance which path — good or evil — each individual will choose and what will be his or her final destination — Paradise or Hell. But such knowledge does not mean that He makes each person choose a certain path."

 
The above is not MY argument. Once again, this is an excerpt of the article link that YOU posted to repudiate my argument. So now, you are arguing against the article that you quoted to repudiate my original argument....
“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt
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Quote Shasta'sAunt Replybullet Posted: 05 May 2008 at 10:55pm
"Since it is indeed proven to be innate and not choice, "
 
This has not been proven. In fact, Rice, Risch, and Ebers all concluded that the X-linkage theory put forth by Hamer could not be proven and their studies in fact found the opposite.  Since these studies have been the most progressive using human genetyping, there is absolutely no evidence that homosexuality is innate.
 
 
 
“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt
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Israfil
 
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Quote Israfil Replybullet Posted: 07 May 2008 at 9:51pm
I will respond shortly
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Quote BMZ Replybullet Posted: 08 May 2008 at 6:12am
Originally posted by believer

BMZ - Let's start another thread on this. I feel like we would be getting in the middle of another discussion then were the others are going.
 
 
 
Yes and welcome, but please go slow as I write on many sites, mostly hostile to Islam and the Muslims.  Smile
 
BMZ
Shasta's Aunt: "Well, there's the difference you see. The Bible was written by man about God, The Quran was revealed to man by God."
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Israfil
 
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Quote Israfil Replybullet Posted: 08 May 2008 at 10:32pm
S.A. since it is impossible for you to understand my philosophical approach, we'll discuss the issue from the Quranic approach. I will also address your previous comment regarding the weblink and excerpt you have posted.
 
The following are surah's I've highlighted for discussion:
 
(1) Nor can a soul die except by Allah’s leave, the term being fixed as by writing. If any do desire a reward in this life, We shall give it to him; and if any do desire a reward in the Hereafter, We shall give it to him. And swiftly shall We reward those that (serve us with) gratitude. S. 3:145 
(2) Say: For myself I have no power to benefit, nor power to hurt, save that which Allah willeth. Had I knowledge of the Unseen, I should have abundance of wealth, and adversity would not touch me. I am but a warner, and a bearer of good tidings unto folk who believe. S. 7:188 
 Allah Predestines the Fate of Every Soul.
 
 (3) The guiding of them is not thy duty (O Muhammad), but Allah guideth whom He will. And whatsoever good thing ye spend, it is for yourselves, when ye spend not save in search of Allah's Countenance; and whatsoever good thing ye spend, it will be repaid to you in full, and ye will not be wronged. S. 2:272
 
  Allah Predestines Our Wills 

(4) “Unto whomsoever of you willeth to walk straight. And ye will not, unless (it be) that Allah willeth, the Lord of Creation.” S. 81:28-29 

As we see in example (1) bodies which extinguish e.g. death do not die except by Allah's leave. All sentient beings which exist and move and breathe and extinguish do so by God's own knowledge. this point is followed by God's will in point (2). Although I am aware that scholars have divided the philosophy of predestination into several spheres i personally wanted to address the problem of attributes as this would relate to the problem.

When we say "God is All-knowing" it is obvious we are discussing God's knowledge being the maximum comprehensive capcity. What this means is that God knows everything basically. If God knows everything then he knows our past (our past which is the path which we didn't exist prior to our existence) our present (our existence from birth to present) and our future (that which will happen that hasn't). This has become problematic and to support this allow me to present the following Hadith narration:

Abu al-Aswad reported that ‘Imran b Husain asked him: What is your view, what the people do today in the world, and strive for, is it something decreed for them or preordained for them or will their fate in the Hereafter be determined by the fact that their Prophets brought them teaching which they did not act upon? I said: Of course, it is something which is predetermined for them and preordained for them. He (further) said: Then, would it not be an injustice (to punish them)? I felt greatly disturbed because of that, and said: Everything is created by Allah and lies in His Power. He would not be questioned as to what He does, but they would be questioned; thereupon he said to me: May Allah have mercy upon you, I did not mean to ask you but for testing your intelligence. Two men of the tribe of Muzaina came to Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) and said: Allah’s Messenger, what is your opinion that the people do in the world and strive for, is something decreed for them; something preordained for them and will their fate in the Hereafter be determined by the fact that their Prophets brought them teachings which they did not act upon. And thus they became deserving of punishment? Thereupon, he said: Of course, it happens as it is decreed by Destiny and preordained for them, and this view is confirmed by this verse of the Book of Allah, the Exalted and Glorious: “Consider the soul and Him Who made it perfect, then breathed into it its sin and its piety” (xci. 8). (Sahih Muslim, Book 033, Number 6406)

Also the following:
 
Allah's Apostle, the truthful and truly-inspired, said, “Each one of you collected in the womb of his mother for forty days, and then turns into a clot for an equal period (of forty days) and turns into a piece of flesh for a similar period (of forty days) and then Allah sends an angel and orders him to write four things, i.e., his provision, his age, and whether he will be of the wretched or the blessed (in the Hereafter). Then the soul is breathed into him. And by Allah, a person among you (or a man) may do deeds of the people of the Fire till there is only a cubit or an arm-breadth distance between him and the Fire, but then that writing (which Allah has ordered the angel to write) precedes, and he does the deeds of the people of Paradise and enters it; and a man may do the deeds of the people of Paradise till there is only a cubit or two between him and Paradise, and then that writing precedes and he does the deeds of the people of the Fire and enters it.” (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 8, Book 77, Number 593) 
As you can see according to the hadiths God has already preordained our duties whether we know them or not. In my view, Freedom is our ignorance of the future because although we seem to act without proviocation accept from our own will, we are still fulfilling what has been preordained before us. Actions cannot be independent of God because God has established the "stage" for our ability to act.
 
A scholar once said:
 

Risaleh-i-Barkhavi says:  

“Not only can He do anything, He actually is the only One Who does anything. When a man writes, it is Allah who has created in his mind the will to write. Allah at the same time gives the power to write, then brings about the motion of the hand and the pen and the appearance upon paper. All other things are passive, Allah alone is active.”  


 
     


Edited by Israfil - 08 May 2008 at 10:33pm
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Israfil
 
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Quote Israfil Replybullet Posted: 08 May 2008 at 10:50pm

The article within the link I posted was meant to discuss qadar.

Now, if you read my words carefully I was discussing the concept of Qadar and the fact that we act in limited fashion. But my question is how can freedom als have limited involvement? If we are limited how are we free? I'm taking god's knowledge out of the equation for a moment here and discuss absolute freedom. But first, let us define what freedom is:
 
If in fact we are free then there is no limitation on will. If there is limitatiom then we are not free. See the following:
 
 

freedom

1.the absence of necessity, coercion, or constraint in choice or action
 
2. unrestricted
 
3. liberation from slavery or restraint or from the power of another.
 
Physical laws and their limitations are a given so we ALL know that physically we are not free to do anything. Whereas laws of action and inaction (non-physical laws) are more comprehensive. As the article states if you "punch a brick wall and complain that it hurts you cannot blame it on Qadar becaus you are conscious of the wall."
 
I would agree with the person here that we do act. But I am critiquing the point of view that such action is considered free. Certain actions are acutalized by compulsion as well and if this is true are those actions free? Someone who calls themself an exhibitionist but is compelled to have "sexual intercourse" openly (there are studies on this but let us assume this is hypothetical) are they free? In our eyes the causality of their action is the result of some form of deliberation which in this case a type of conscious effort. However, the problem here lies in what actually caused  the behavior. One may argue that it is not compulsion but deliberation. This too is another problem of freedom along with the attributes.
 
Truly, if possible, we can say freedom is extended to all persons regardless of their biological makeup. I wonder, if such is true then individuals who are mentally defective are they free? I hope you can dwell on these questions.
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