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Interfaith Dialogue
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Message Icon Topic: Seems like a false statement. Please explain. Post Reply Post New Topic
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BMZ
 
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Quote BMZ Replybullet Posted: 03 May 2008 at 7:19am
Originally posted by Ron Webb

Why is it a false statement?   Both religions study the same book, that book being the Old Testament.  The fact that Christians also study another book (the new Testament) does not make the first statement untrue.
 
Hi Ron,
 
The Jews only read and recite the Jewish Holy Scriptures. They do not even read the Septuagint aka LXX and they do NOT read the Christians' Old Testament (OT) which is the first part of the Christian Bible. This is confirmed.
 
I have read the Christians' Old Testament and the Jewish Holy Scriptures from Alpha to Omega of both. There are differences. If you read the Jewish Holy Scriptures and the Christians' OT in parallel, you will easily spot the differences and the changes made, to show Jesus in the Jewish Scriptures.
 
I will give you one example: Psalm 2:10-12 From the Christians' OT
 
10 Therefore, you kings, be wise;
       be warned, you rulers of the earth.

 11 Serve the LORD with fear
       and rejoice with trembling.

 12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry
       and you be destroyed in your way,
       for his wrath can flare up in a moment.
       Blessed are all who take refuge in him.

If you read Psalm 2:10-12 in the Jewish Holy Scriptures, you will NOT find,
"Kiss the Son" mentioned at all.
 
Cheers
BMZ


Edited by BMZ - 03 May 2008 at 8:39am
Shasta's Aunt: "Well, there's the difference you see. The Bible was written by man about God, The Quran was revealed to man by God."
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Quote Israfil Replybullet Posted: 03 May 2008 at 6:35pm

Going down the list of responses.

So, you are repudiating the Word of Allah? Which Islamic theology have you studied that would allow you to do so, and please bring forth the daleel(proof) of what you are saying.
 
Who is sounding like the psuedo-intellectual here? I wouldn't even qualify you as an interpreter of Quranic text let alone can actually disprove what I am saying. I gave you several points of why we do not have freewill which you have yet to refute. I do not follow any school of thought or any fiqh if you were wondering.
 
Did you mean dialogical or dialectical?  I'm afraid I don't recognise dialetical.
 
Dialetical is a philosophical term which means to make an arguement without concrete demonstration. Quoting the Qur'an is not demonstrative proof unless you interpret into a framework which is demonstrative. This means not quote something verbatum and then say you have refuted my position. That is dialetical.
 
You do not have to interpret God's Word, He has made it quite clear that man has free will and will be judged accordingly.
 
Obviously there things in God's word that aren't clear. For instance many schoalrs interpret several spheres of action which designates man's ability to act.
 
The concept of qadar used in the Qur’an means a measure or the latent possibilities with which Allah (God) created human beings and all things of nature.....
 
If God created "possibilities" for us then he creates those limited possibilities to which man can act, therefore our actions are NOT determined but are limited hence are not free. Freedom does not mean the will to act in one instance and not another, but to act however and whenever.
 
If Allah says believe I am ONE and I will reward you and NOT believe in me as One I will punish you is (if choice is made) not an independent choice but contingent upon the possible penalty of suffering in Hell or lounging in paradise. If I choose to believe in God solely because I'm afraid of Hell I am not making an independent choice but a choice based upon the hereafter. Again S.A. Your proofs fail. Not by the Qur'an but your inability to interpret the Qur'an.
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Quote Shasta'sAunt Replybullet Posted: 03 May 2008 at 7:15pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb

Originally posted by Farooqui

...don't we all have a choice but just find ourselves at different starting points?  
So is it just a wild coincidence that the vast majority of Muslims had Muslim parents, and the vast majority of Christians come from Christian families, etc.?  You don't see any empirical evidence that people's beliefs (religious and otherwise) are strongly influenced by their upbringing?
 
There are many people born into a faith who do not understand or follow it. How many Christians actually follow the Christian faith?  Just as there are many Muslims who do things because it is custom, not because they understand the reasoning behind it. 
 
But look how many who are born into one faith and choose another....
“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 04 May 2008 at 9:17am
Originally posted by BMZ

I have read the Christians' Old Testament and the Jewish Holy Scriptures from Alpha to Omega of both. There are differences. If you read the Jewish Holy Scriptures and the Christians' OT in parallel, you will easily spot the differences and the changes made, to show Jesus in the Jewish Scriptures.
 
Yes, there are differences.  There are numerous variants of both the Old and New Testaments.  There are whole books within the Bible that are recognized by some denominations (Catholic versus Protestant, for instance) and not by others.  See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Books_of_the_Bible for a summary of the differences.
 
Nevertheless, those books that the various faiths have in common are obviously different editions of the same books, from the same original sources.  That is what the Quran means.  It should also be noted that the Quran does not use the word "same".  That is an interpolation provided by some (but not all) translators.
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 04 May 2008 at 5:18pm
Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt

[There are many people born into a faith who do not understand or follow it. How many Christians actually follow the Christian faith?  Just as there are many Muslims who do things because it is custom, not because they understand the reasoning behind it.
 
I think most people who are born into a faith but don't follow it are children of parents who similarly don't follow their faith. 
 
But look how many who are born into one faith and choose another....
 
Not nearly as many as those who simply inherit their faith.  Look at it this way: what are the odds that a child born to an even nominally Christian family in the United States will become a Muslim?  Hint: less than 1% of the Americans are Muslim, so even if every one of those was born to a Christian family that's still very low odds.
 
Conversely, what are the odds that a child born to a Muslim family in Saudi Arabia will become a Christian?  Another hint: apostacy is illegal in Saudi Arabia and punishable by death.
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Quote Shasta'sAunt Replybullet Posted: 05 May 2008 at 12:08am
Originally posted by Israfil

Going down the list of responses.

So, you are repudiating the Word of Allah? Which Islamic theology have you studied that would allow you to do so, and please bring forth the daleel(proof) of what you are saying.
 
Who is sounding like the psuedo-intellectual here? I wouldn't even qualify you as an interpreter of Quranic text let alone can actually disprove what I am saying. I gave you several points of why we do not have freewill which you have yet to refute. I do not follow any school of thought or any fiqh if you were wondering.
 
Did you mean dialogical or dialectical?  I'm afraid I don't recognise dialetical.
 
Dialetical is a philosophical term which means to make an arguement without concrete demonstration. Quoting the Qur'an is not demonstrative proof unless you interpret into a framework which is demonstrative. This means not quote something verbatum and then say you have refuted my position. That is dialetical.
 
You do not have to interpret God's Word, He has made it quite clear that man has free will and will be judged accordingly.
 
Obviously there things in God's word that aren't clear. For instance many schoalrs interpret several spheres of action which designates man's ability to act.
 
The concept of qadar used in the Qur’an means a measure or the latent possibilities with which Allah (God) created human beings and all things of nature.....
 
If God created "possibilities" for us then he creates those limited possibilities to which man can act, therefore our actions are NOT determined but are limited hence are not free. Freedom does not mean the will to act in one instance and not another, but to act however and whenever.
 
If Allah says believe I am ONE and I will reward you and NOT believe in me as One I will punish you is (if choice is made) not an independent choice but contingent upon the possible penalty of suffering in Hell or lounging in paradise. If I choose to believe in God solely because I'm afraid of Hell I am not making an independent choice but a choice based upon the hereafter. Again S.A. Your proofs fail. Not by the Qur'an but your inability to interpret the Qur'an.
 
But you are still choosing, whatever your reasoning. If you don't grasp that not so subtle point at this juncture then you probably never will.
 
Yes. there are things in God's Word that are not clear and God points them out saying that man will never know the meaning of these things. However, judgement based upon our choices is not one of these things. This is a recurrent theme common among all of God's Messengers, Prophets, and Sacred Texts. It honestly can't get much clearer. 
 
I think you mean dialectical not dialetical....

dialectical

< name=entry =/dictionary method=post>2 entries found.

< =:.entry.submit() size=2 name=jump> < ed>dialectical<>dialectical materialism


Main Entry:
di·a·lec·ti·cal Listen%20to%20the%20pronunciation%20of%20dialectical
Pronunciation:
\ˌdī-ə-ˈlek-ti-kəl\
Variant(s):
also di·a·lec·tic Listen%20to%20the%20pronunciation%20of%20dialectic \-tik\
Function:
adjective
Date:
1548
1 a: of, relating to, or in accordance with dialectic <dialectical method> b: practicing, devoted to, or employing dialectic <a dialectical philosopher>2: of, relating to, or characteristic of a dialect
di·a·lec·ti·cal·ly Listen%20to%20the%20pronunciation%20of%20dialectically \-ti-k(ə-)lē\ adverb
 
Gee, I remember stating in my earlier post that we act within a sphere of God's creation and are limited to God's Laws within that creation. You are just taking my words and changing them up. Not extremely original.  You have yet to bring the daleel that we do not have free will to choose right from wrong, to believe or disbelieve.  I do not have to refute you musings. Allah has said that we have the ability to choose and He will judge us accordingly. The fact that you continue to argue against this makes me question your sincerity.  There is a point beyond which one goes from questioning something because they truly do not understand to almost mocking the belief. 
 
This MIGHT help you.....
 
As for qualifying to interpret Quran, most concepts in the Quran are so simple a child can understand. It was revealed as a guidance and mercy for ALL of mankind, those with a simple intellect and those who are a tad sharper. You might actually learn something from reading the Quran in it's simplicity. The ability to choose right from wrong,  those things which Allah has made clear with clear signs and warnings, the Islamic perspective on homosexuality..... 
 
 
“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt
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Quote Shasta'sAunt Replybullet Posted: 05 May 2008 at 12:13am
IS:
This is from the article link that you posted to refudiate what I have been saying. Sound familiar???   Thank you for pasting a link to an artcle that backs up everything that I have said, almost verbatim.   
 
 
"From an Islamic point of view, human beings are free for all practical purposes. A person has no excuse for making the wrong choice and then blaming qadar or destiny, any more than a man punching his fist into a wall can blame the laws of nature. He knew the consequences of his actions for all practical purposes and he shouldn’t expect a miracle!

We should not worry about what Allah has written for us, since we can never know it. But our duty is to strive for the best in this world and the next. Then, good results will follow, if Allah wills.

As for the question of whether humans are predestined to enter Paradise or Hell, we must remember that Allah transcends the limits of time. He is All-Knowing of the past, present and future. Thus He knows in advance which path — good or evil — each individual will choose and what will be his or her final destination — Paradise or Hell. But such knowledge does not mean that He makes each person choose a certain path."

“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt
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Quote believer Replybullet Posted: 05 May 2008 at 5:02am
BMZ - Let's start another thread on this. I feel like we would be getting in the middle of another discussion then were the others are going.
 
 
John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
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