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Islamic INTRAfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Islamic INTRAfaith Dialogue
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minuteman
 
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Quote minuteman Replybullet Posted: 08 September 2008 at 4:33am
 
  asda, It had been shown to you that Muslims were praying in mosque during the time of the prophet and he himself prayed for three nights in Ramadhan. Then after the prophet died, the Muslims were praying in the mosque during Ramadhan at night. They were doing it in the Time of Hazrat Abubakr Siddique, the first Imam of the Ummah.
 
 Then it is known that Momineen were praying in the mosque individually at night during the month of Ramadhan and reciting the Quran on their own, in large numbers without an Imam.
 
 Hazrat Umar r.a. the secnd Imam of the Ummah did not go to the momineen to call them to come and pray in the mosque at night. They were already doing it individually. Whatever was the name of that practice, Hazrat Umar did not tell them to do it.
 
 Now asda tell me what you will call that prayer?  Whatever is the name of that prayer or practice, the momineen were doing it without any one telling them.  And that practice was going on in the mosque already daily at night in the month of ramadhan. Hazar Umar did not tell them to do that. He did not call any one to the mosque.
 
In that time, Hazrat Umar only suggested that they may do it in congregation, i.e. collectively under one Imam who will recite the Quran for every one to listen. It also means that there was a Quran in those days available at least to some peopel who had memorised it.
 
 Now asda tell me what was wrong with that? Hazrat Umar was the qualified elected leader (Imam). He only suggested that the prayer at night may be collective. There is no harm in that. And there can be many Jama'at in the same mosque under different Imams. The purpose to listen to the Quran.
 
 It is a sort of non-obligatory Sunnat which is equal to nawafil (extras). If any one wants to do that let him do it. If some one does not like, let him keep away. Why are you specially trying to prove that it is wrong? Or it is some kind of sin? And you are using your Hadith for that.
I have told you that Hadith cannot over-ride it. It is some kind of Sunnat which is continued in the Ummah from the time before Hazrat Umar r.a. (FROM THE TIME BEFORE, NOTE IT PLEASE.) Hazrat Umar only modified the practice. He did not start or stop it.
 
 Tell me where will you go now? Are you with the multitude of the Ummah listening to the Quran in the month of Ramadhan or you want to stop such practice or you want to lie at home and go for your own prayers at home. There is nobody to stop you. But you seem to be anxious to stop a practice which the people were doing and liked to do in the life of the prophet. s.a.w.s.
 
 The prophet himself did it for three days and continued to do it later without congregation. The Ahadith have been over worked and specially designed to downplay the Traveeh, even  Hazrat Umar calling it a Bida'at. That is false. There is no need to go to such depth unless a Shia may do it.


Edited by minuteman - 08 September 2008 at 4:40am
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asda
 
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Quote asda Replybullet Posted: 08 September 2008 at 1:11pm
what makes u say that this hadeeth has been worked on and not in its orignal form??? is their any logical proof of ure claim???
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minuteman
 
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Quote minuteman Replybullet Posted: 08 September 2008 at 10:07pm
 
  It is from the matter that the Hadith is judged first, the material. Then the Rawayat is seen.
 
 There are other Hadith too which show that peole were praying in the mosque at night during the month of Ramadhan during the life of the prophet. The prophet also did it for three nights.
 
 If the prophet did anything even for One day then it could become a Sunnat.
 
 1.  The people were praying in the mosque during the time of Hazrat Abubakr. If the prophet had forbidden the people then why they were doing it? Something wrong?
 
 2. Why they kept on doing it?
 
 3. The People were praying extra during the month of Ramadhan at night in the mosque during the time of Hazrat Umar too. Why they were doing it?
 
 4. Did Hazrat Umar r.a. call them and told them to do the prayer in the mosque?
 
 You please note all my questions and give reply to each question. Then I will give you the position of those Hadith.
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asda
 
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Quote asda Replybullet Posted: 09 September 2008 at 5:47am
on ure earlier post...
well i hav nothing against taraweeh...its just that the sunnis accuse us of not following the sunnah of the prophet (a.s)....and its just to prove that taraveeh is not his sunnah...infact the prayers mentioned in those hadith are tahajjud prayer...

1. The people were praying in the mosque during the time of Hazrat Abubakr. If the prophet had forbidden the people then why they were doing it? Something wrong?


the Prophet (a.s) had forbidden the ppl from praying that prayer in congregation...as one can see..and not as whole..:


Narrated Zaid bin Thabit: Allah's Apostle made a small room (with a palm leaf mat). Allah's Apostle came out (of his house) and prayed in it. Some men came and joined him in his prayer. Then again the next night they came for the prayer, but Allah's Apostle delayed and did not come out to them. So they raised their voices and knocked the door with small stones (to draw his attention). He came out to them in a state of ANGER, saying, "You are still insisting (on your deed,) that I thought that this prayer might become obligatory on you. So you people, offer this prayer (i.e. Tahajjud or the so called Tarawih) at your homes, for the best prayer of a person is the one which he offers at home, except the compulsory (congregational) prayer." Sahih Bukhari, Volume 8, Book 73, Number 134

2. Why they kept on doing it?


And during a part of the night, engage in the night prayer (Tahajjud) beyond what is incumbent on you; perhaps your Lord will raise you to a position of great glory. (17:79)


3. The People were praying extra during the month of Ramadhan at night in the mosque during the time of Hazrat Umar too. Why they were doing it?


nawaafil prayers has no limits...

4. Did Hazrat Umar r.a. call them and told them to do the prayer in the mosque?


nope...but as it was ramadan...ppl usually pray at mosque...but the tahajjud shud be prayed at the middle of the night...which is done better at home...rest all prayers are surly better at mosque..



now like a gud boy i hav answerd those question ;-)...now there r soo many questions above...please answer them...
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minuteman
 
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Quote minuteman Replybullet Posted: 09 September 2008 at 8:49pm
 
  Pl. see my questions again and reply properly.
 
 1.  The people were praying in the mosque during the time of Hazrat Abubakr. If the prophet had forbidden the people then why they were doing it? Something wrong? Were they ignorant or disobedient?
 
 2. Why they kept on doing it?
 
 3. The People were praying extra during the month of Ramadhan at night in the mosque during the time of Hazrat Umar too. Why they were doing it?
 
 4. Did Hazrat Umar r.a. call them from their home and told them to do the prayer in the mosque?
 
 You have not tried to give replies. Give yes or no. And tell me whu people were doing what they were doing individually. Do not give me any verse of the Quran  or hadith. Because that is not called for in my questions.
 
 In fact you have admitted that you were doing all this because the Sunnis were accusing you of not going for Traveeh. That is not correct. I did not accuse you and I have not seen any one accusing the Shias for that. They can pray at home. But the thread here is started by some Shia and he/she was trying to prove that the Traveeh was sin. It was against the teachings of the prophet.
 But now you are saying that it was all because the Sunnis accused you. That is not the case. You had come fully equiped to demolish the practice of the Traveeh. But you have failed miserably.
 
 I have no problem with your mode of prayer. The Shias do many bad things. I did not pick any querrel with them. But najeeb had full gear to prove that the Traveeh prayer was a sin.
 
 asda, I ask you again. Please read the four questions above and reply in a decent manner to the point being asked. Thanks.


Edited by minuteman - 09 September 2008 at 8:51pm
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asda
 
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Quote asda Replybullet Posted: 11 September 2008 at 4:59am
You have not tried to give replies. Give yes or no. And tell me whu people were doing what they were doing individually. Do not give me any verse of the Quran or hadith. Because that is not called for in my questions.


well now u r again denying it without any reasoning....if u hav problems with my answers then point them out individually...

they were surly praying nawaafil, or any other recomended prayers, or they were offering one of the waajib salaah, or reciting kazaa numaaz......man how do i knw....its just that everyone knows they were praying....wat they were praying, is something a man himself knows...and its there in his niyyah....he does not need to have a big board around him saying i am praying such and such prayer....i ask u...u see a person praying at mosque..how do u knw wat prayer he was praying???


In fact you have admitted that you were doing all this because the Sunnis were accusing you of not going for Traveeh. That is not correct. I did not accuse you and I have not seen any one accusing the Shias for that. They can pray at home. But the thread here is started by some Shia and he/she was trying to prove that the Traveeh was sin. It was against the teachings of the prophet.[/A In fact you have admitted that you were doing all this because the Sunnis were accusing you of not going for Traveeh. That is not correct. I did not accuse you and I have not seen any one accusing the Shias for that. They can pray at home. But the thread here is started by some Shia and he/she was trying to prove that the Traveeh was sin. It was against the teachings of the prophet.


well i dont knw the views of the topic starter....but the only reason i entered this debate was because u all accuse us of having imam Ali (a.s) before Prophet Muhammad (a.s)....and by not praying taraveeh u all accuse us of the same thing...

infact how can taraveeh be a sin!!!!how can reciting Quran be a sin???? well its just that the form of prayer dint exist till the time of ure second caliph......but thawaab of reciting quran, in a gud and beutiful voice cannot be denied....
well i just read the 1st post on this thread....and the starter of this topic does not mean as u say....hes no way proving it a sin.....

I have no problem with your mode of prayer. The Shias do many bad things. I did not pick any querrel with them. But najeeb had full gear to prove that the Traveeh prayer was a sin.


baseless argument....because sunnis do accuse shias of loads of things they dont do....
bad things??...y do u have sunnis accusing shias of a belief of Quran being revealed to Imam Ali (a.s) (maazallah).....well if u dont wanna debate..then no ones forcing u....well its just that we should treat each other with respect...thats it......if there are differences..then lets discuss this out in a humanly manner...and try to understand each other...

well if u hav problems with any of the practice of the shia that u can open a thread and we can discuss that...inshallah differences will be sorted out...


asda, I ask you again. Please read the four questions above and reply in a decent manner to the point being asked. Thanks.


i have done that...if u dont like hadith then its not my fault...ure second question was answered in the 1st one itself....the quranic verse was added just to strenthen my case...if u dont like the Quranic Aayah...then again its not my fault...

Edited by asda - 11 September 2008 at 5:50am
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Quote minuteman Replybullet Posted: 13 September 2008 at 11:59am
 
  ( For asda. My previous questions in black. My latest remarks in blue)

1. The people were praying in the mosque during the time of Hazrat Abubakr. If the prophet had forbidden the people then why they were doing it? Something wrong?

You have not given any good reason why people were praying in the mosque during Ramadhan nights in large numbers. If the prophet hd told them not do such thing then do you think they were disobedient people? You have not given any good reason. You say "may be they were doing Nawafil, may be they were doing tahjjud.. But it is sure that the people were praying in the mosque in large numbers during Ramadhan. So it shows that the prophet had not forbidden them to do so. If he had forbidden something then they would not do it.

The prophet only acted in such a way that it may not become compulsory for them. That is all. It proves that peopel in large numbers were seen praying in the mosque individually.

2. Why they kept on doing it?

There is real reply from you except that they were praying Nawafil etc. But you know and you admit that they were there at night in Ramadhan in large numbers performing prayers individually, of some kind.

3. The People were praying extra during the month of Ramadhan at night in the mosque during the time of Hazrat Umar too. Why they were doing it?

It is established that people in large numbers were praying in the mosque during Ramadhan individually, even during the period of the 2nd Imam al Ummah, Hazrat Umar r.a. So it was a practice coming from the time of the prophet s.a.w.s. And they were prayer mongers and not any false or bad or disobedient people. They were the companions of the prophet s.a.w.s. It was a continous practice during every month of Ramadhan for many years.

4. Did Hazrat Umar r.a. call them and told them to do the prayer in the mosque?

You have admitted that Hazrat Umar r.a. did not call any one from their home to gathert in the mosque and perform the Salat collectively. They were used to be there already and he only suggested that the prayer could be offered collectively with some Hafiz or Qari reciting the Quran and others listening to it.

That was his suggestion which was adopted by the people and the practice has been continued till this day. Some people (Sunnis) perform 20 Raka'at and some others (ahle Hadith) perform only 8 Raka'at prayers. But they do. And only Shias do not do it. that is their own business. They do what they like. But why are Shias so anxious to prove that the practice of the Sunnis and Ahle Hadith is wrong?

You and najeeb both try to use Hadith to disprove the Traveeh prayers by using Hadith. Are you more expert in the matters of Hadith than the ahle Hadith people? Not at all. And here we do not even need any Hadith. It is a continous practice which is non broken. It over rides any Hadith. It does not need any Hadith to support it.

So it proves that you both entered this field with lack of knowledge. Now the whole thing has been explained to you. I hope you will understand and not raise any objection to the Traveeh prayers.

The month of Ramadhan has extra care for the Quran and the Quran is recited in various ways during the Traveeh prayers. So there is no mistake. It is all a service to the Quran. Then trying to raise a question that it is a Sunnat or not, that is unnecessary. It may not be a compulsory Sunnah. Yet it is great and a great guidance by the great leader (Imam) of the Ummah hazrat Umar r.a. May Allah bless his soul. Amen.

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asda
 
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Quote asda Replybullet Posted: 13 September 2008 at 2:01pm
ure reply has few unproven points:

1-where has the hadith said that the Prophet (a.s) had disallowed to pray in mosque in Ramazan completely???....while the hadith clearly mentions about the prticular salah which has been not allowed in congregation....
2-u hav just generalised it and assumed the fact that everyone in the mosque (when umer entered) were praying taraweeh....well does a person while praying taraweeh look different...no right!!! then how did u make that assumption???

The prophet only acted in such a way that it may not become compulsory for them. That is all. It proves that peopel in large numbers were seen praying in the mosque individually.


are all the aacts of the prophet (a.s) are to be considered sunnah (except waajib ones) for the ummah and it is recomended to do them???



So it proves that you both entered this field with lack of knowledge. Now the whole thing has been explained to you.

ure explaination has loads of baseless assumptions.....only if i assume something, then only its correct....if i assume it to be othervise...then...obviosly it gives a diff meaning.....

the acts of islam are not based on assumptions..
atleast u have accepted the fact that the prophet (a.s) dint like that prayer to be read in congregation...whatever the reason was...
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