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Islamic INTRAfaith Dialogue
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minuteman
 
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Quote minuteman Replybullet Posted: 06 September 2008 at 2:02am
Originally posted by asda

sir, i say that taraveeh is not a sunnah....

and if it is a sunnah...then there shud be hadith on this matter....

i wud repeat my questions to u so that its ez for u to answer:
now i ask u......from where do u derrive the sunnah if not from hadith....is there any other source...
my second question: is all the sunnah of the prophet (a.s) has to be followed...or in short....are all the acts of th prophet (a.s) a recomended act? (other than waajibaat)

my 1st question still remains...please prove it to me that taraweeh is a sunnah of the Prophet (a.s)?


i am not telling u to look into shii books....u can refer me to sunni books as well...
 
  asda, I have colored the part in red above. That is your mistake. It is not necessary for every Sunnah to be a Hadith. You know that Sunnah had been with the Ummah from the very first day without break. But the books of Hadith (differeing versions) came on the scene after more than 200 years.
 
 There was no Hadith available in those days. But people were praying and doing all the works and doing Hajj too. That was not by any Hadith, nor was Hadith available in those day for every one. Do you believe in those days people did not pray or perform Hajj? Or not fasted during month of Ramadhan?.
 
All the religion was complete and being practiced. The Hadith were not known to every one. But the daily practice of the prophet s.a.w.s. (known as his way or Sunnah) was known to every one from the very first day. remember the Sunant is the practice of the prophet s.a.w.s. It is what he did and peopel saw it and copied it in large numbers at once till this day.
 
I did not learn the religion from the books of Hadith. You know that Shias have Hadith of their own. The Sunnis have their own. The ahle Hadith have their own selected Hadith. Every one has his own bundle of Hadith and all the differences that are arising in the Ummah are due to the Hadith only. I know some Hadith may be common between different sects. But they are far and few. Some are controversial, some people generated those Hadith.
 
 It is well known that Imam Bukhari had a record of more than 100,000 fabricated Ahadith. That was about 1300 years ago. What happened after that, who knows.
 
 I had told you and I tell you again to consider that there are three things to be followed, namely:
 
1. The Quran.
2. The Sunnah (The practcie of the prophet)
3. Hadith (The traditions in the books of Hadith)
 
 All these are to be followed in that order of importance. The Hadith gives support to the Quran and Sunnah. It helps the Quran and Sunnah. It serves the Quran and Sunnah. But Hadith cannot take charge of the Quran and Sunnah. It has to follow the Quran and Sunnah.
 
 There is constant practice of the Ummah about everything from generation to generation to this day. Try to see that and trust that first. That is not wrong. Do not go, get hold of a book to disprove the practice of the prophet s.a.w.s. The prophet practically translated the whole of the Quran by his example and all people saw it and followed it to this day. Those people are called Sunnis. They give importance to the Sunnat after the Quran. Somethings are learnt by the  books of Hadith too.
 
 On the other hand there are others who are ahle Hadith. They give more importance to the rawayat ( the narratives) of Hadith in the books after the quran and ignore the practical side of the matter. They are called ahle Hadith.
\
 I had explained all to you before. But you said that I should not give lecture on the matetrs of Hadith. Why?  Then why are you resting all your case on the Hadith now?


Edited by minuteman - 06 September 2008 at 2:18am
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Quote minuteman Replybullet Posted: 06 September 2008 at 2:09am
 
  najeeb, my reply to you is the same as I have given to asda. You have brought many hadith in support against the salat Traveeh. Your case is entirely based on the  various Hadith. So a reply is given to you.
 
 You are making a double attack on the system of Salat Traveeh.
1. You are pressing ahead that the prophet forbade such a prayer.
2. That hazrat Umar r.a. organised this bad system of Traveeh (in congragation, i.e Baa Jamaat)).
 
 Please tell me if that is your belief or is it only one problem or both of the above. Then which one? Let me know what is your problem from the two mentioned above? I will soon reply. But keep to the point that I am asking, please.
 Thanks.
 


Edited by minuteman - 06 September 2008 at 2:11am
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Quote minuteman Replybullet Posted: 06 September 2008 at 2:34am
Originally posted by Hamzah

Saheeh al-Bukhaaree: Volumn 005, Book 057, Hadith Number 038
Narated By Abu Huraira : Allah's Apostle said, "Among the nations before you there used to be people who were inspired (though they were not prophets). And if there is any of such a persons amongst my followers, it is 'Umar."


Saheeh Muslim: Book 031, Hadith Number 5901/5902
Chapter : The excellent qualities of 'Umar (Allah be pleased with him).

'Aisha (& Sa'd b. Ibrahim) reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: There had been among the people before you inspired persons and if there were any such among my Umma Umar b. Khattab would be one of them. Ibn Wahb explained the word Muhaddathun as those who receive hint from the High (Mulhamun).
 
 With your permission, may I alter the wording slightly please. Because the word inspired does not describe very well. In the Hadith quoted, it says that in the previous Ummah, there were men (and women) to whom Allah spoke even though they were not prophets...  And if there is any in my Ummah then Umar is surely one of them. (Such people are called Muhaddathoon).
 
 So the word inspiration is not suitable. Inspiration is a self thought or something put in the mind. But revelation is much higher than inspiration. And all revelation may not be the prophetic one. There is other ordinary kind of revelation too such as was done to the mother of Moses and mother of Isa a.s.  and to the disciples of Jesus a.s.
 
That revelation was not part of any Shariyah.
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Quote asda Replybullet Posted: 06 September 2008 at 5:50am
as far as i can understand...u r trying to tell me in shugar-coated words that the sunnah are a set of costums set by the prophet, and hadith are his saying....and sunnah has more importance than hadith...cuz hadith was NEVER written at the time of Prophet (a.s)......

well this surly goes against some of the greatest books of sunni's...

Was hadith ever written when the prophet (a.s) said them???
well this is how ure books answer them:

Sunan of Abu-Dawood Hadith 3639 Narrated by Abdullah ibn Amr ibn al-'As

I used to write everything which I heard from the Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him). I intended (by it) to memorise it. The Quraysh prohibited me saying: Do you write everything that you hear from him while the Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) is a human being: he speaks in anger and pleasure? So I stopped writing, and mentioned it to the Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him). He signalled with his finger to him mouth and said: Write, by Him in Whose hand my soul lies, only right comes out from it.




Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith Hadith 1.113 Narrated by Abu Huraira

There is none among the companions of the Prophet who has narrated more Hadiths than I except 'Abdullah bin Amr (bin Al-'As) who used to write them and I never did the same.




now the second question is.....was the actions of the Prophet (a.s) preserved after his death??? the answer is a big no:


Volume 1, Book 10, Number 507:Narrated Ghailan:

Anas said, "I do not find (now-a-days) things as they were (practiced) at the time of the Prophet." Somebody said "The prayer (is as it was.)" Anas said, "Have you not done in the prayer what you have done? Narrated Az-Zuhri that he visited Anas bin Malik at Damascus and found him weeping and asked him why he was weeping. He replied, "I do not know anything which I used to know during the life-time of Allah's Apostle except this prayer which is being lost (not offered as it should be)."




now how can u rely normal fallable human beings to transmit sunnah for years...when u know for fact that when even a small sentence transmits within 10 ppl within 5 minutes....the whole sentence changes.....how can u call the sunnah of the prophet(a.s) mere customs when as soon after the prophet (a.s) the actions were changed...


surprisingly u hav even challenged the authenticity of bukhari...which is in contrast to what ure scholars said....

br....u hav not supported ure actions with anything but wat fits ure mind and as u hav liked it.....i ask...in islam does one acts according to wat allah (s.w.t) likes or according to wat an individual likes??

u hav not even supported ure faith by any book by any scholar!!!


so if something like normal prayer was changed after the prophet (a.s)....how can u expect ppl to practice the sunnah of the prophet (a.s) hundreds of years after his death??

and so....how can u even say that sunnah of the prophet was mere costom...and the facts of it was just wat everyone knew...and till today it is being followed as it was done by the prophet (a.s)???

my list of questions are increasing with ure replies...cuz ure views has surprised me...it has no base at all...

br in the end i want to say is that i dont mean to offend u...
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Quote najeeb Replybullet Posted: 06 September 2008 at 10:22am
salam,
for now, the hadith about inspiration is obviously a fabrication and the pre-islamic history of Umar and his history after the demise of the prophet will show that. no further comment. do your research.

in your different responses, you have diverged from the topic of taraweeh and started talking about other things. u have still not proven me wrong. i will respond to your mains points.

as for taraweeh:

POINT1: i don't have a problem if the sunnis pray taraweeh. this is between themselves and Allah. however, i don't understand why they are doing it when all hadith and scholars understanding show that it was not the practice of the prophet, but an innovation of the companions, which umar perfected. i have used a legitimate way to prove my point. Now, please, u can either prove me wrong legitimately or accept my prove, and close the case.

POINT2: my friend, all scholars (shia'a and sunnis) have derived the Sunnah of the prophet from hadith. that is what abu hanifa, al-maliki, al-shafii and ahmad ibn handbal, & everyone did, except those who don't believe in hadith. the interpretation of the quran by each scholar is also based on these hadith, and unfortunately many have introduced their opinions as well!

therefore, what i believe and what i don't believe, is based on the quran and the hadith, from which (hadith) the sunnah is derived. it only logically follows that i have to use hadith to prove my point. no other way around it.

POINT3:
hadith was not written 200 years after the demise of the prophet. in fact, there are many narrations which suggest the contrary. and of course, there are narrations that support your claim, and i consider them fabrications because the idea is illogical.

Think about it logically: just like the quran was written upon revelation, the hadith was also getting written at the time of the prophet. writting is the best way to preserve both sources because people are prone to forgetting, which will ultimately result in unintentional or intentional alterations. there is no valid and logical reason for not allowing the writing of the hadith at the time of the prophet. the importance of the Sunnah warrants such preservation. do u think the companions will be able to remember the entire sharia'a? is this possible? do u remember everything u hear from your intructor at school in a 1 hour class? no u don't. u pick up some pieces but at the end, you rely on your book.

here are some narrations:
Mustadrak al-Hakim, musnad ahmad, sunan abu dawud, sunan al-darima:
. Abdullah ibn Umar has said: "I used to write down whatever I heard from the Messenger of Allah, so Quraysh prohibited me from doing so saying, `Do you write everything you hear from the Messenger of Allah who is a human being talking in anger or when pleased?' So I stopped writing, then I told the Messenger of Allah about it, whereupon he pointed to his mouth and said, `Keep writing, for by the One Who holds my soul do I swear that nothing comes out of it except the truth.'"

al-Bukhari refers to the sahifah of Ali which contains written hadith:
Narrated Ash-Sha'bi: Abu Juhaifa said, "I asked Ali, 'Have you got any book (which has been revealed to the Prophet apart from the Qur'an)?' 'Ali replied, 'No, except Allah's Book or the power of understanding which has been bestowed (by Allah) upon a Muslim or what is (written) in this sheet of paper (sahifah).' Abu Juhaifa said, "I asked, 'What is (written) in this sheet of paper?' Ali replied, it deals with The Diyya (compensation (blood money) paid by the killer to the relatives of the victim), the ransom for the releasing of the captives from the hands of the enemies, and the law that no Muslim should be killed in Qisas (equality in punishment) for the killing of (a disbeliever).


Imam Ja`far al-Sadiq has said, "We have the saheefa; it is seventy yards long: it is the dictation of the Messenger of Allah written down in the hand-writing of Ali. Nothing permissible or prohibitive the knowledge thereof is needed by people, nor any other issue, except that it is in it, even the penalty for inflicting an offense as minor as a tiny scratch on someone's cheek."

bukhari:
Narrated 'Ali: We have no Book to recite except the Book of Allah (Qur'an) and this paper. Then 'Ali took out the paper, and behold ! There was written in it, legal verdicts about the retaliation for wounds, the ages of the camels (to be paid as Zakat or as blood money). In it was also written: 'Medina is a sanctuary from Air (mountain) to Thaur (mountain). So whoever innovates in it an heresy (something new in religion) or commits a crime in it or gives shelter to such an innovator, will incur the curse of Allah, the angels and all the people, and none of his compulsory or optional good deeds will be accepted on the Day of Resurrection. And whoever (a freed slave) takes as his master (i.e. be-friends) some people other than hi real masters without the permission of his real masters, will incur the curse of Allah, the angels and all the people, and none of his compulsory, or optional good deeds will be accepted on the Day of Resurrection. And the asylum granted by any Muslim is to be secured by all the Muslims, even if it is granted by one of the lowest social status among them; and whoever betrays a Muslim, in this respect will incur the curse of Allah, the angels, and all the people, and none of his Compulsory or optional good deeds will be accepted on the Day of Resurrection."

if all the narrations i have presented were just in the Shia'a books, then you may have the right to disprove them. but it is harder to disprove them when they are considered authentic by the shia'a and sunnis.

i am going to make this my last contribution and move on because this is not going anywhere. i will just let u ponder on all of this and inchallah, the truth will become clear. just think about it, seriously. the bottom line is reaching conviction and mutual understanding, rather than condemnation!

salam
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Quote minuteman Replybullet Posted: 06 September 2008 at 8:48pm
 
 First asda:
 
 as far as i can understand...u r trying to tell me in shugar-coated words that the sunnah are a set of costums set by the prophet, and hadith are his saying....and sunnah has more importance than hadith...cuz hadith was NEVER written at the time of Prophet (a.s)......

well this surly goes against some of the greatest books of sunni's...


Was hadith ever written when the prophet (a.s) said them???
well this is how ure books answer them.
 
 Again your books and my books. it seems that you  have different books. Never mind. 
 
 You and I are in disagreement. I have explained to you that there were no books of Hadith in circulation and the religion was all well. The prayers and Hajj was going on without any Hadith. I have pointed out to the practice (doings) of the holy prophet to you. But you do not go near it. You ignore that completely. Some of those doings (practice of the prophet) was later written in the books of Hadith too. But that was long time after the demise of the prophet.
 
 You do not seem to acknowledge the role of the Sunnah. Perhaps you do not understand it or you ignore it or do not like it. Again you are taking the matter into some books of the Sunnis etc.
 
 I do not go into them as far as the various religious rites are concerned. You know that the books of Hadith were compiled about 100 to 200 years after the prophet. So they are late comers and have to remain behind the Sunnah. hadith is not Sunnah. That is a descriptive of the life of the prophet and that may support the Sunnah. The Sunnah was already there before any book of Hadith.
 
 So I have cut - off all your post after the mention of the books again and again...
 
 I did not believe on the scholars, or their Kalimah. My Eiman rests on rationality and truth with love for all and hatred for none. If you have love for all then you are welcome.


Edited by minuteman - 06 September 2008 at 8:54pm
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Quote minuteman Replybullet Posted: 07 September 2008 at 1:27am

 

 salam, (From Najeeb)
for now, the hadith about inspiration is obviously a fabrication and the pre-islamic history of Umar and his history after the demise of the prophet will show that. no further comment. do your research. 

That means you are a specialist of the knowledge of Hadith. You have outright rejected the Hadith which a friend ( Hamza) presented here about Hazrat Umar. We will see. It appears to me that you have no real religious knowledge about Sunnah or hadith or Umar.


 

  in your different responses, you have diverged from the topic of taraweeh and started talking about other things. u have still not proven me wrong. i will respond to your mains points.

 You should point out where I diverged. You were using Hadith. I discussed about the status of Ahadith to prove that you are wrong.

 

as for taraweeh:

POINT1: i don't have a problem if the sunnis pray taraweeh. this is between themselves and Allah. however, i don't understand why they are doing it when all hadith and scholars understanding show that it was not the practice of the prophet, but an innovation of the companions, which umar perfected. i have used a legitimate way to prove my point. Now, please, u can either prove me wrong legitimately or accept my prove, and close the case.

  Thanks . You don't have problem about Sunnis praying Traveeh. But you think it is a sin. It is a disobedience.


POINT2: my friend, all scholars (shia'a and sunnis) have derived the Sunnah of the prophet from hadith. that is what abu hanifa, al-maliki, al-shafii and ahmad ibn handbal, & everyone did, except those who don't believe in hadith. the interpretation of the quran by each scholar is also based on these hadith, and unfortunately many have introduced their opinions as well! 

 That is wrong. I had told you that hadith is different to Sunnah. Hadith is to serve the Sunnah. It is not to take charge of the Quran and Sunnah. But you do not know what is Sunnah. How Sunnah can be derived from the Hadith. Sunnah was acting from the very first day. The Ahadith came on the scene after 200 years and not many people knew about them.

Sunnat, that is the practice of the prophet was seen and known by thousands of people all the time. Muslims were performing Hajj and prayers when there was no book of Hadith at all.

 

therefore, what i believe and what i don't believe, is based on the quran and the hadith, from which (hadith) the sunnah is derived. it only logically follows that i have to use hadith to prove my point. no other way around it.

 You may believe on the Quran and your own Hadith. Even if you present any Hadith as that of Sunnis is no good. Books have been written and things added and subtracted by the Shias in the Sunni books. Nobody will trust you.

 

POINT3:
hadith was not written 200 years after the demise of the prophet. in fact, there are many narrations which suggest the contrary. and of course, there are narrations that support your claim, and i consider them fabrications because the idea is illogical.

You do not know about the history of Hadith. You do not know that it was forbidden to write anything when Quran was being written.


Think about it logically: just like the quran was written upon revelation, the hadith was also getting written at the time of the prophet. writting is the best way to preserve both sources because people are prone to forgetting, which will ultimately result in unintentional or intentional alterations. there is no valid and logical reason for not allowing the writing of the hadith at the time of the prophet. the importance of the Sunnah warrants such preservation. do u think the companions will be able to remember the entire sharia'a? is this possible? do u remember everything u hear from your intructor at school in a 1 hour class? no u don't. u pick up some pieces but at the end, you rely on your book. 

Totally wrong. You are saying that hadith was being written when Quran was being written. Where have you been. If all hadith were already written then why did Imam Bukhari r.a. and Imam Muslim went place to place to collect the Ahadith from people? You are trying to mislead others with your wrong thinking. Nobody will buy what you are selling.

 


here are some narrations: 

I do not need your narrations. I have told you that they have no value. I am not ahle Hadith and I hope that you are also not ahle Hadith. So why you bring the Hadith again and again. Are you an ahle hadith? Please tell me. So I have cut-off all your narrations.


if all the narrations i have presented were just in the Shia'a books, then you may have the right to disprove them. but it is harder to disprove them when they are considered authentic by the shia'a and sunnis. 

 I do not care if they are from Shia books or Sunni books. They are not needed here.

 


i am going to make this my last contribution and move on because this is not going anywhere. i will just let u ponder on all of this and inchallah, the truth will become clear. just think about it, seriously. the bottom line is reaching conviction and mutual understanding, rather than condemnation!

[.quote]

I know you will be going away soon. I want you to stay on and discuss the matter about the status of the Quran and Sunnah and Hadith. What do you say? Sunnah is different from the Hadith. I wish that you try to understand the Sunnah and forget the Hadith for the time being. Sunnah is standing on its own legs. Not on the legs of the Hadith.

  [quote] salam 

   And salam to you too.



Edited by minuteman - 07 September 2008 at 1:31am
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Quote asda Replybullet Posted: 07 September 2008 at 4:51am
Salaams

Originally posted by minuteman

 
 First asda:

 

 as far as i can understand...u r trying to tell me in shugar-coated words that the sunnah are a set of costums set by the prophet, and hadith are his saying....and sunnah has more importance than hadith...cuz hadith was NEVER written at the time of Prophet (a.s)...... well this surly goes against some of the greatest books of sunni's... Was hadith ever written when the prophet (a.s) said them??? well this is how ure books answer them.

 

 Again your books and my books. it seems that you  have different books. Never mind. 

 

 You and I are in disagreement. I have explained to you that there were no books of Hadith in circulation and the religion was all well. The prayers and Hajj was going on without any Hadith. I have pointed out to the practice (doings) of the holy prophet to you. But you do not go near it. You ignore that completely. Some of those doings (practice of the prophet) was later written in the books of Hadith too. But that was long time after the demise of the prophet.

 

 You do not seem to acknowledge the role of the Sunnah. Perhaps you do not understand it or you ignore it or do not like it. Again you are taking the matter into some books of the Sunnis etc.

 

 I do not go into them as far as the various religious rites are concerned. You know that the books of Hadith were compiled about 100 to 200 years after the prophet. So they are late comers and have to remain behind the Sunnah. hadith is not Sunnah. That is a descriptive of the life of the prophet and that may support the Sunnah. The Sunnah was already there before any book of Hadith.

 

 So I have cut - off all your post after the mention of the books again and again...

 

 I did not believe on the scholars, or their Kalimah. My Eiman rests on rationality and truth with love for all and hatred for none. If you have love for all then you are welcome.



sir....did u even read my post...and did u even try to understand it....or just because it disagrees with u..... u dint bother thinking about it....

i have PROVED it to u that HADITH BOOKS WERE WRITTEN AT THE TIME OF THE PROPHET....and u simply went over that...well thats odd..and u wrote this:

there were no books of Hadith in circulation



pata nahee where do u take ure religion from.....


and i PROVED it to u THAT THE ACTIONS OF THE PROPHET WERE DISTORTED AND CHANGED...but u still ignored it because it does not agree with ure views.....please dont be stubborn...


i am not lovering the importance of sunnah...i am trying to say is that QURAN...SUNNAH...HADITH....ALL OF THEM HAVE THE SAME VALUE....because


Nor does he speak of (his own) desire. It is only an Inspiration that is inspired". (An-Najm 3,4)


"Obey Allah and obey the messenger" (An Nissa’: 59)



i am having a feeling that u r doing ure best to avoid hadith....but y is it....

and comming bak to taraweeh.....how do u think the taraweeh, which u think its the sunnah of the prophet (a.s)....was transmitted till today...and u pray it the same way as the prophet did??

My Eiman rests on rationality and truth with love for all and hatred for none. If you have love for all then you are welcome.


how can i love all blindly...how can i follow the ppl who hurt the prophet (a.s)'s doughter...and just close my eyes....like u...and follow wat i like and reject wat i like...

is ure faith according to what allah (s.w.t) likes....or wat u hav made up in ure mind??

khz

Edited by asda - 07 September 2008 at 4:52am
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