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Islamic INTRAfaith Dialogue
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minuteman
 
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Quote minuteman Replybullet Posted: 04 September 2008 at 7:57am
 Asda, you are worried why I entered the field of Hadith. Did you see the bundle of Ahadith by which najeeb was trying to prove that Salat Traveeh was false? If you have not seen then please go back and see all those Hadith on which najeeb rested his case.
 
 Also I will ask you just one question which I should have asked you before giving any reply. Tell me how you will prove a Sunnah? Please tell. You are asking "Is Traveeh a Sunnah?"  I ask you how you will prove a Sunnah. What is a Sunnah and how do you learn something is a Sunnah or not?  Welcome.
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najeeb
 
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Quote najeeb Replybullet Posted: 04 September 2008 at 9:06am
salam and ramadan kareem to all.
first, i am neither a scholar nor an imam. i am a muslim and so is my wife. one is a shia and the other a sunni. we realised our differences and i took the initiative to read and learn in order to know what the truth is. the only way to learn what the truth is is to put aside all you know today, be objective and start from scratch.

second, i started this discussion with the objective to bring awareness and not cause disension. there is no need to go haywire and start usig profanities. the purpose of inter/intrafaith dialogue is to promote knowledge to replace ignorance. The Quran encourages to bring proof to support your claims. So all this is about is: bring your proof and I shall bring mine. don't let your emotions control the dialogue. if you can't have a decent and respectful discussion, then u r in the wrong forum. and no one is attacking any companion.

claiming that "These Ahadith which have been shown about this subject have been worked upon by some one" is a weak defence. these same hadith you are talkng about make your belief system today. YOU HAVE PROOF, BRING IT. YOU HAVE NOTHING, THEN LEARN AND APPRECIATE (i am not yelling).

Sunnah is everything the prophet SAID and DID. obligatory or not is irrelevant, but do it the Rasul way.

1- all the narrations prove one thing: the prophet did not practice taraweeh. and this word did not even exist at his time. it was neither practiced at the time of abu bakr. therefore, it was not never a prophetic sunnah.

2- umar is the one who started it.
3- Ahlul Bayt never practiced it and considered it an innovation.

it is hard for many of you to believe that the companions can innovate or do smth wrong and bad. well, look back into history: what did the people of Moses do when Moses left for 40 nights and put Harun as his deputy? did they not turn their heels away from religion and started worship the golden cow they made? what about the twelveth apostle of Jesus who betrayed him? why is it so easy for you to believe that but difficult when it comes to the companions. let me give some hadith (all in sahih muslim/bukhari to prove my point:

The prophet also warned the companions from turning their back to religion:
Narrated 'Abdullah: The Prophet said, "I am your predecessor at the Lake-Fount, and some of you will be brought in front of me till I will see them and then they will be taken away from me and I will say, 'O Lord, my companions!' It will be said, 'You do not know what they did after you had left.'
حدثني يحيى بن حماد: حدثنا أبو عوانة، عن سليمان، عن شقيق، عن عبد الله، عن النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم: أنا فرطكم على الحوض.
وحدثني عمرو بن علي: حدثنا محمد بن جعفر: حدثنا شعبة، عن المغيرة قال: سمعت أبا وائل، عن عبد الله رضي الله عنه، عن النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم قال: أنا فرطكم على الحوض، وليرفعنَّ رجال منكم ثم ليختلجنَّ دوني، فأقول: يا رب أصحابي؟ فيقال: إنك لا تدري ما أحدثوا بعدك

Narrated Asma 'bint Abu Bakr: The Prophet said, "I will be standing at the Lake-Fount so that I will see whom among you will come to me; and some people will be taken away from me, and I will say, 'O Lord, (they are) from me and from my followers.' Then it will be said, 'Did you notice what they did after you? By Allah, they kept on turning on their heels (turned as renegades).' " The sub-narrator, Ibn Abi Mulaika said, "O Allah, we seek refuge with You from turning on our heels, or being put to trial in our religion."
‏حدثنا ‏ ‏سعيد بن أبي مريم ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏نافع بن عمر ‏ ‏قال حدثني ‏ ‏ابن أبي مليكة ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏أسماء بنت أبي بكر ‏ ‏رضي الله عنهما ‏ ‏قالت ‏
‏قال النبي ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏إني على الحوض حتى أنظر من يرد علي منكم وسيؤخذ ناس دوني فأقول يا رب مني ومن أمتي فيقال هل شعرت ما عملوا بعدك والله ما برحوا يرجعون على أعقابهم ‏ ‏فكان ‏ ‏ابن أبي مليكة ‏ ‏يقول ‏ ‏اللهم إنا نعوذ بك أن نرجع على أعقابنا أو نفتن عن ديننا

Narrated Uqba bin Amir: Allah's Apostle offered the funeral prayers of the martyrs of Uhud eight years after (their death), as if bidding farewell to the living and the dead, then he ascended the pulpit and said, "I am your predecessor before you, and I am a witness on you, and your promised place to meet me will be Al-Haud (i.e. the Tank) (on the Day of Resurrection), and I am (now) looking at it from this place of mine. I am not afraid that you will worship others besides Allah, but I am afraid that worldly life will tempt you and cause you to compete with each other for it." That was the last look which I cast on Allah's Apostle.
‏حدثنا ‏ ‏محمد بن عبد الرحيم ‏ ‏أخبرنا ‏ ‏زكرياء بن عدي ‏ ‏أخبرنا ‏ ‏ابن المبارك ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏حيوة ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏يزيد بن أبي حبيب ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏أبي الخير ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏عقبة بن عامر ‏ ‏قال ‏ ‏صلى رسول الله ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏على قتلى ‏ ‏أحد ‏ ‏بعد ثماني سنين ‏ ‏كالمودع ‏ ‏للأحياء والأموات ثم طلع المنبر فقال ‏ ‏إني بين أيديكم ‏ ‏فرط ‏ ‏وأنا عليكم شهيد وإن موعدكم الحوض وإني لأنظر إليه من مقامي هذا وإني لست أخشى عليكم أن تشركوا ولكني أخشى عليكم الدنيا أن تنافسوها قال فكانت آخر نظرة نظرتها إلى رسول الله ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم

Narrated 'Abdullah: The Prophet said, "I am your predecessor at the Lake-Fount (Kauthar) and some men amongst you will be brought to me, and when I will try to hand them some water, they will be pulled away from me by force whereupon I will say, 'O Lord, my companions!' Then the Almighty will say, 'You do not know what they did after you left, they introduced new things into the religion after you.'"

Narrated Jarir: The Prophet ordered me during Hajjatul-Wada'. "Ask the people to listen." He then said, "Do not become infidels after me by cutting the necks (throats) of one another."
‏حدثنا ‏ ‏حفص بن عمر ‏ ‏حدثنا ‏ ‏شعبة ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏علي بن مدرك ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏أبي زرعة بن عمرو بن جرير ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏جرير ‏ ‏أن النبي ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏قال في حجة الوداع ‏ ‏لجرير ‏ ‏استنصت الناس فقال ‏ ‏لا ترجعوا بعدي كفارا يضرب بعضكم رقاب بعض

In sahih Muslim:
ترد عليَّ أُمّتي الحوض وأنا أذود الناس كما يذود الرجل إبل الرجل عن إبله... وليصدن عنّي طائفة منكم فلا يصلون، فأقول: يا ربّ! هؤلاء من أصحابي، فيجيئني ملك فيقول: وهل تدري ما أحدثوا بعدك؟!

Also in Sahih Muslim:
إنّي على الحوض أنتظر من يرد عليّ منكم، ليقتطعن دوني رجالاً فلأقولنَّ: أي ربّ منّي ومن أُمّتي، يقول إنّك لا تدري ما أحدثوا بعدك، ما زالوا يرجعون على أعقابهم

u will not see a Sunni imam talk about this in the mosque. you want to know why? because this will raise questions about the companions, and the implications can be bad, really bad!

not all companions were good. many were good and remained good, while others strayed off after the prophet, and others knew how to hide their hypocrisy. this is a fact, so accept it with pride. no shame in truth. want proof from quran, ask for it and i shall bring it.

as for umar and Abu Bakr: what u don't know is what u should know and what u know is fallacy. but this is not the objective of this discussion. let's just stick to salat al-taraweeh.

to make this productive, if u have legitimate questions, then ask them. if you want to make accusations, drop them because this will just promote discord. if smth does not make sense to you, then ask. i will ignore all insults and accusations made and ask allah to forgive us all.

salam






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asda
 
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Quote asda Replybullet Posted: 04 September 2008 at 1:46pm
Salaams...

in my initial reply....i will like to adress br najeeb..

Ramadan kareem to u as well...
br. i would request u to please remain on the topic...as we r discussing taraweeh here....and not the ppl who were with the prophet (a.s)...thats a very big topic....and shud be kept aside wen we r discussing taraweeh...
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Quote asda Replybullet Posted: 04 September 2008 at 1:53pm
now to br.minuteman...
thnx for ure welcome..


to prove a sunnah one has to have hadith which describes the prophet (a.s) doing an act....the hadith is a source to derrive sunnah....u hav said hadith is less important than sunnah..
Hadith is never to take charge (overtake) of the Quran and Sunnah.

now i ask u......from where do u derrive the sunnah if not from hadith....is there any other source...
my second question: is all the sunnah of the prophet (a.s) has to be followed...or in short....are all the acts of th prophet (a.s) a recomended act? (other than waajibaat)

my 1st question still remains...please prove it to me that taraweeh is a sunnah of the Prophet (a.s)?
and that can only be done thru hadith..

if there is any other way to derrive a sunnah then plese let me know....


i hope this gets approves ASAP!!!!

regards
asda
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minuteman
 
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Quote minuteman Replybullet Posted: 04 September 2008 at 4:41pm
 
   ASDA,  What do you say? traveeh is a Sunnah or not? Please tell me. Then I will answer all your questions. If it is not a sunnah then what would say is Traveeh?
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Quote minuteman Replybullet Posted: 04 September 2008 at 4:51pm
 
 to najeeb,  you are wandering into wrong fields while preaching to others to behave and remain calm. Whatever you re thinking is wrong and you will be proved wrong very easily.
 
 You have admitted that upto the time of the 2nd Imam Hazrat Umar r.a. all was well. It was Umar who started the wrong practice. Okay. Then the matter will become easy and you will be disproved very soon about the Salaat Traveeh.
 
 Your problem is traveeh only. You do not believe that it is Sunnah. That Hazrat Umar r.a. started the present day system. That is your problem. It will be solved very soon. Just stick around please. And do not ever discuss other things beside the actual topic.
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najeeb
 
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Quote najeeb Replybullet Posted: 04 September 2008 at 10:08pm
salam,
taraweeh and only taraweeh it is. first, may allah accept our fasting and prayers - TAQABALALLAH

Minuteman: yes, what u have said is what I have claimed based on what is written in the books of hadith and history. there is nothing to disprove here. here are more facts, all from Sunnis sources, which are also in Shia'a sources.

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 3, Book 32, #227 - Book: al-Tarawih:
Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "Whoever prayed at night the whole month of Ramadan out of sincere Faith and hoping for a reward from Allah, then all his previous sins will be forgiven." Ibn Shihab (a sub-narrator) said, "Allah's Apostle died and the people continued observing that (i.e. Nawafil offered individually, not in congregation), and it remained as it was during the Caliphate of Abu Bakr and in the early days of 'Umar's Caliphate." 'Abdur Rahman bin 'Abdul Qari said, "I went out in the company of 'Umar bin Al-Khattab one night in Ramadan to the mosque and found the people praying in different groups. A man praying alone or a man praying with a little group behind him. So, 'Umar said, 'In my opinion I would better collect these (people) under the leadership of one Qari (Reciter) (i.e. let them pray in congregation!)'. So, he made up his mind to congregate them behind Ubai bin Ka'b. Then on another night I went again in his company and the people were praying behind their reciter. On that, 'Umar remarked, 'What an excellent Bid'a (i.e. innovation in religion) this is; but the prayer which they do not perform, but sleep at its time is better than the one they are offering.' He meant the prayer in the last part of the night. (In those days) people used to pray in the early part of the night."

ibn Shayba in al-Kitab al-Mussanaf, al-Tabari in his Tarikh and ibn Asakir in his Tarikh Dimashq reported:
The first who made the people pray the night prayers in congregation during Ramadan is Umar ibn al-Kattab.

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 92, #393 - Book: Holding Fast to the Qur'an and Sunnah:
... The Prophet said, O people! Perform your prayers at your homes, for the best prayer of a person is what is performed at his home except the compulsory congregational) prayer."

Ibn Majah, Sunan, volume 1, page 439, number 1378
"Once Abdullah bin Mas'ud asked the Prophet (s): "Which is better; to pray in my house or in the mosque?" The Prophet (s) replied: "Do you not see how near to the mosque my house is? To pray in my house is more beloved to me than to pray in the mosque except for the obligatory prayers."

Imam Muhyiddeen al-Nawawi commented on the narration in Sahih Muslim:
Allah's Apostle died and the people continued observing that and it remained as it was during the Caliphate of Abu Bakr and in the early days of 'Umar's Caliphate. It means every one was performing the night prayer during Ramadan alone at home until the early days of 'Umar's Caliphate. So Umar brought them all together to perform the prayer in one big congregation.

Badriddeen al-A'ayni in his U'umdatul Qari commented:
...Umar did not participate in the congregational prayer, as if he prefered to perform it alone at home late at night...And to that point, al-Tahawi said that al-Taraweeh at home is better...Umar called it a Bida'a because it was not the Sunnah of the prophet and was not performed at the time of Abu Bakr...
ورواه محمد بن نصر في كتاب: قيام الليل له من هذا الوجه، فقال: سليمان بن أبي حثمة بدل: تميم الداري، ولعل ذلك كان في وقتين. قوله: ثم خرجت معه أي: مع عمر ليلة أخرى، وفيه إشعار بأن عمر، رضي الله تعالى عنه، كان لا يواظب الصلاة معهم، وكأنه يرى أن الصلاة في بيته أفضل، ولا سيما في آخر الليل، وعن هذا قال الطحاوي: التراويح في البيت أفضل. قوله: نعم البدعة، ويروى: نعمت البدعة، بزيادة التاء، ويقال: نعم، كلمة تجمع المحاسن كلها، وبئس، كلمة تجمع المساوئ كلها، وإنما دعاها بدعة لأن رسول الله، صلى الله عليه وسلم، لم يسنها لهم، ولا كانت في زمن أبي بكر، رضي الله تعالى عنه. ورغب رسول الله، صلى الله عليه وسلم، فيها بقوله: نعم، ليدل على فضلها، ولئلا يمنع هذا اللقب من فعلها. والبدعة في الأصل أحداث أمر لم يكن في زمن رسول الله، صلى الله عليه وسلم

al-Bukhari in his Sahih also commented:
It was called it a Bida'a because it was not the Sunnah of the prophet...سماها بدعة لأنها لم يسنها رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 8, Book 73, #134 - Book: al-Adab
Narrated Zaid bin Thabit: Allah's Apostle made a small room (with a palm leaf mat). Allah's Apostle came out (of his house) and prayed in it. Some men came and joined him in his prayer. Then again the next night they came for the prayer, but Allah's Apostle delayed and did not come out to them. So they raised their voices and knocked the door with small stones (to draw his attention). He came out to them in a state of anger, saying, "You are still insisting on your deed that I thought that this prayer might become obligatory on you. So you people, offer this prayer at your homes, for the best prayer of a person is the one which he offers at home, except the compulsory (congregational) prayer."

For several nights during the month of Ramadan, the prophet intended to pray alone in a small room he made in the mosque. But some of the companions came and joined him in his prayers making it congregational. If the prophet wanted the companions to pray behind him, would he not have called them to perform it with him? Would he not have chosen a bigger place like the entire mosque to accomodate all the Muslims? It is clear that the fact that the prophet chose a small room with a door to perform these night prayers, he did not intend for anyone to join him. Moreover, on the upcoming nights, the prophet closed the door of the small room. Does this not further prove the prophet's unwillingness to let the companions pray behind him???

When the companions insisted to pray behind the prophet (despite the prophet's efforts not to let them), he came out to them in a state of anger. He was not angry because they raised their voices and knocked the door with small pebbles. But he was angry because of the companions persistence to pray behind him. His anger further proves that he did not want anyone to pray behind him.

The prophet clearly told the companions to offer this prayer at their homes, for the best prayer of a person is the one which he offers at home, except the compulsory (congregational) prayer. Therefore, whatever prayer the prophet was performing those nights, it was best to offer it INDIVIDUALLY AT HOME, as the prophet was doing in that small room.

So this night prayer (nawafil ramadan) is not to be prayed in congregation in the mosque. However, it is to be prayed individually at home because, as the prophet said, the best prayer of a person is what is performed at his home except the compulsory congregational prayers. any deviation from that is a bida'a. I can't be any clearer than this.

I would like to end with this verse:
Quran 33:36
It is not fitting for a Believer, man or woman, when a matter has been decided by Allah and His Messenger to have any option about their decision: if any one disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he is indeed on a clearly wrong Path.

I hope this helps.

wassalam

Edited by najeeb - 04 September 2008 at 10:09pm
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Quote asda Replybullet Posted: 05 September 2008 at 3:18am
sir, i say that taraveeh is not a sunnah....

and if it is a sunnah...then there shud be hadith on this matter....

i wud repeat my questions to u so that its ez for u to answer:
now i ask u......from where do u derrive the sunnah if not from hadith....is there any other source...
my second question: is all the sunnah of the prophet (a.s) has to be followed...or in short....are all the acts of th prophet (a.s) a recomended act? (other than waajibaat)

my 1st question still remains...please prove it to me that taraweeh is a sunnah of the Prophet (a.s)?


i am not telling u to look into shii books....u can refer me to sunni books as well...
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