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Islamic INTRAfaith Dialogue
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najeeb
 
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Quote najeeb Replybullet Posted: 17 April 2008 at 10:12pm
salam,
the following points hjave been established, so far:
1- taraweeh were not performed at the time of the prophet.
2- the prophet prayed the ramadan nawafil at night and alone and not in the mosque.
3- the prophet REFUSED the ramadan nawafil in congregation.
4- the prophet told the companions to perform these nawafils at home and alone.
5- the taraweeh were an innovation of umar and he was proud of such innovation.

You are right. the prophet did not forbid the muslims to pray the nawafil in the mosque. so it is not haram when done in the mosque. However, praying these nawafil in the mosque is less rewarding than praying them at home. Moreover, You say that the words (sunnah) of the prophet were a preference. Okay, let's assume that. Would the preference of Umar BE BETTER and OVERRIDE the preference of the prophet? The "preference" of the prophet comes from God. However, the preference of Umar comes from his opinion. How could you prefer to follow the way of Umar and abandon the way of the prophet??? Finally on this point: Please keep the following ayat in mind before saying i don't want to understand:
Quran 59:7
...and whatever the Messenger gives you, accept it, and from whatever he forbids you, keep back,...
...وَمَا آتَاكُمُ الرَّسُولُ فَخُذُوهُ وَمَا نَهَاكُمْ عَنْهُ فَانتَهُوا

when someone does not comply with the sunnah of the prophet, is this not some form of desobedience?

You talk about the Sahabah performing the nawafil individually in the mosque at the time of the prophet. This is INCORRECT and when did you prove that? this only happened during the caliphate of the Umar. no narration suggests what you are saying. so that is not proved. so this is not settled.

salam.
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najeeb
 
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Quote najeeb Replybullet Posted: 19 April 2008 at 9:50am
SALAM,
i would to add few more things for those who have the will to accept the truth and not to stubbornly cling to practices unrelated to the sunnah of the prophet.

[size="4"]
I want to repeat the following narration in sahih bukhari
Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "Whoever prayed at night the whole month of Ramadan out of sincere Faith and hoping for a reward from Allah, then all his previous sins will be forgiven." Ibn Shihab (a sub-narrator) said, "Allah's Apostle died and the people continued observing that (i.e. Nawafil offered individually, not in congregation), and it remained as it was during the Caliphate of Abu Bakr and in the early days of 'Umar's Caliphate." 'Abdur Rahman bin 'Abdul Qari said, "I went out in the company of 'Umar bin Al-Khattab one night in Ramadan to the mosque and found the people praying in different groups. A man praying alone or a man praying with a little group behind him. So, 'Umar said, 'In my opinion I would better collect these (people) under the leadership of one Qari (Reciter) (i.e. let them pray in congregation!)'. So, he made up his mind to congregate them behind Ubai bin Ka'b. Then on another night I went again in his company and the people were praying behind their reciter. On that, 'Umar remarked, 'What an excellent Bid'a (i.e. innovation in religion) this is; but the prayer which they do not perform, but sleep at its time is better than the one they are offering.' He meant the prayer in the last part of the night. (In those days) people used to pray in the early part of the night."

حَدَّثَنَا عَبْدُ اللَّهِ بْنُ يُوسُفَ أَخْبَرَنَا مَالِكٌ عَنْ ابْنِ شِهَابٍ عَنْ حُمَيْدِ بْنِ عَبْدِ الرَّحْمَنِ عَنْ أَبِي هُرَيْرَةَ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُ ‏أَنَّ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ قَالَ مَنْ قَامَ رَمَضَانَ إِيمَانًا وَاحْتِسَابًا غُفِرَ لَهُ مَا تَقَدَّمَ مِنْ ذَنْبِهِ قَالَ ابْنُ شِهَابٍ فَتُوُفِّيَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ وَالْأَمْرُ عَلَى ذَلِكَ ثُمَّ كَانَ الْأَمْرُ عَلَى ذَلِكَ فِي خِلَافَةِ أَبِي بَكْرٍ وَصَدْرًا مِنْ خِلَافَةِ عُمَرَ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُمَا.
وَعَنْ ابْنِ شِهَابٍ عَنْ عُرْوَةَ بْنِ الزُّبَيْرِ عَنْ عَبْدِ الرَّحْمَنِ بْنِ عَبْدٍ الْقَارِيِّ أَنَّهُ قَالَ خَرَجْتُ مَعَ عُمَرَ بْنِ الْخَطَّابِ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُ لَيْلَةً فِي رَمَضَانَ إِلَى الْمَسْجِدِ فَإِذَا النَّاسُ أَوْزَاعٌ مُتَفَرِّقُونَ يُصَلِّي الرَّجُلُ لِنَفْسِهِ وَيُصَلِّي الرَّجُلُ فَيُصَلِّي بِصَلَاتِهِ الرَّهْطُ فَقَالَ عُمَرُ إِنِّي أَرَى لَوْ جَمَعْتُ هَؤُلَاءِ عَلَى قَارِئٍ وَاحِدٍ لَكَانَ أَمْثَلَ ثُمَّ عَزَمَ فَجَمَعَهُمْ عَلَى أُبَيِّ بْنِ كَعْبٍ ثُمَّ خَرَجْتُ مَعَهُ لَيْلَةً أُخْرَى وَالنَّاسُ يُصَلُّونَ بِصَلَاةِ قَارِئِهِمْ قَالَ عُمَرُ نِعْمَ الْبِدْعَةُ هَذِهِ وَالَّتِي يَنَامُونَ عَنْهَا أَفْضَلُ مِنْ الَّتِي يَقُومُونَ يُرِيدُ آخِرَ اللَّيْلِ وَكَانَ النَّاسُ يَقُومُونَ أَوَّلَهُ

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 3, Book 32, #227 - Book: al-Tarawih; Page 417, #2009, Page 418, #2010 (Arabic version)

from this narration and many others, it is clear that the companions used to pray the nawafil of ramadan (they were not called taraweeh) individually. Now, there is no proof that at the time of the prophet, these companions prayed the nawafil in the mosque (if u claim so). if they did, then these companions regretfully chose not to follow the advice of the prophet who told them that it is best (more rewards) to pray the non-obligatory prayers at home and not in the mosque. Remember the following narration from ibn Majjah:
[size="4"]"Once Abdullah bin Mas'ud asked the Prophet (s): "Which is better; to pray in my house or in the mosque?" The Prophet (s) replied: "Do you not see how near to the mosque my house is? To pray in my house is more beloved to me than to pray in the mosque except for the obligatory prayers." .

There is no reason not to follow the prophet advice and there are plenty of reasons to follow it!

the taraweeh is a clear bida'ah and Umar called it so. Ulamah such as al-qastalani and al-nawawi said:
[size="4"]"It was called BID'AH because the Prophet (s) did not use to pray it in congregation, and neither was it prayed like that in the time of al-Siddiq (referring to the first Caliph), nor in the early part of night or with these number of units."

something else i would like to point out: in the first narration of bukhari i provided, it is said that the prophet came out to them in a state of anger, saying, "You are still insisting (on your deed, i.e. Tarawih prayer in the mosque) that I thought that this prayer (Tarawih) might become obligatory on you. So you people, offer this prayer at your homes, for the best prayer of a person is the one which he offers at home, except the compulsory (congregational) prayer." How could the prophet be worried that Allah would make these prayers a congregational obligation when to Allah it is best to pray the supererogatory prayers at home? does this make any sense? of course, the prophet will contradict himself. it is just i that the report has some flaws in it.

i did my best and i hope this will open up some eyes.

salam

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Hamzah
 
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Quote Hamzah Replybullet Posted: 11 June 2008 at 6:21am
Personally i pray it sometimes in the mosque and sometimes at home with the wife and kids.

The prophet prayed it 3 days and each day the mosque became more full till it chocked with worshippers and the prophet stopped it because he was afraid it would become an obligation on his umma and that they would find it hard to follow.

Actually Omar was praying Taraweeh at home, but he advised those who pray individually in the mosque to pray it in congregation, but he was not offering the prayer with them in the mosque.

What are you trying to prove?
that Omar went against what the prophet said?
if so, i just want to say one thing before you go on making these acusations that i only hear from Shia's!
When Allah said to the prophet in Surah Al-Duha: and (Allah will give you till he satisfies you)
this included in his life and death
Omar was burried next to the prophet as was Abu bakr, so do not go into these waters brother, concentrate on your self and your flaws as a human, leave these great men alone for Wallah they will be the closest the prophet on the day of judgment, you will not be asked about them, you will be asked about your self.
may Allah guide us all.
"Whosoever fears Allah, he will appoint for him a way out, and provide for him from where he does not expect"
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Quote Hamzah Replybullet Posted: 11 June 2008 at 6:54am
Saheeh al-Bukhaaree: Volumn 005, Book 057, Hadith Number 038
Narated By Abu Huraira : Allah's Apostle said, "Among the nations before you there used to be people who were inspired (though they were not prophets). And if there is any of such a persons amongst my followers, it is 'Umar."


Saheeh Muslim: Book 031, Hadith Number 5901/5902
Chapter : The excellent qualities of 'Umar (Allah be pleased with him).

'Aisha (& Sa'd b. Ibrahim) reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: There had been among the people before you inspired persons and if there were any such among my Umma Umar b. Khattab would be one of them. Ibn Wahb explained the word Muhaddathun as those who receive hint from the High (Mulhamun).
"Whosoever fears Allah, he will appoint for him a way out, and provide for him from where he does not expect"
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Quote asda Replybullet Posted: 03 September 2008 at 4:35am
Salaams..
 
b4 we go into the merits of the sahaaba, y dont u prove that taraweeh is the sunnah of the Prophet (a.s)...
 
wsalaam
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minuteman
 
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Quote minuteman Replybullet Posted: 03 September 2008 at 12:19pm
 This is another indirect way of attacking the Great Imams of the Ummah, i.e. hazrat Abubakr and hazrat Umar. The muslims were well organised during the time of the prophet s.a.w.s. They could not be wrong. They were prayer mongers. And we know that not all people have good facility to pray at home. The prayer at home can be disturbed too.
 
 Mosque is meant for prayer. These Ahadith which have been shown about this subject have been worked upon by some one. Now I would raise a question to najeeb and company about Sunnah. What does he consider exactly that Sunnah is?  Those words of Hadith are Sunnah? I am sure they are not. They are just Hadith. Written and compiled by some men two hundred years after the prophet. Those are the sayings of the prophet s.a.w.s. and not the doings of the prophet.
 
 The people learnt by watching the prophet what he was doing. This was done by large number of people, many people.  The words of the prophet were sometime not heard by many people.Only few (on or two) people heard it then later passed it on to another and another and so on.
 
 Whereas the practice of the prophet s.a.w.s. was from the very first day and large number saw it being done, the Hadith was limited to just a few people and was collected compiled after many years. The Hadith has an inferior status compared to the Sunnah.
 
 Please remember that there are three things for our Guidance.
 
1. The Quran is the foremost and uppermost.
2. Next is the Sunnah i.e. the practice of the prophet.
3. Next is the Hadith, the sayings (or doings) of the prophet as described in books of Hadith.
 
 The last item (hadith) is to serve the Quran and Sunnah. Hadith is never to take charge (overtake) of the Quran and Sunnah. Any Hadith which is against the Quran and Sunnah should be rejected. Any hadith which is against any well known authentic Hadith should also be rejected.
 
 Because if we do not do that then we may have to reject the verses of the Quran for the sake of a conflicting Hadith. Or we may have to reject a well known Hadith for another doubtful hadith. In both cases, it will be wrong to admit that conflicting Hadith.

The above was something about the status of various Hadith. In the matters of Hadith, we have two tests also.

1. The Darayat. That will check if the material is good and fair as per Quran and Sunnah.

2. The Rawayat.That will check if the chain of narrators is correct.

 If any Hadith does not pass the first test then there is no need to go for the second test. The chain of narrators may be good. Yet the Hadith may be malafide.

najeeb has got all matter hanging on some Ahadith. And he wants to turn the things upside down on the basis of a few Hadith. That is not posible. It is proved that people used to pray Traveeh in the mosque individually during the life of the prophet s.a.w.s. Even the prophet himself did it for three days only.

When the prophet passed away, the practice continued. That is all proved and even najeeb cannot deny it. He is however worried about why did hazrat Umar make it congragational. then supported by his bundle of Ahadith, najeeb jumped onto Hazrat Umar for starting something wrong. That was bad of najeeb. najeeb forgot another important aspect of this case too.

The month of Ramadhan is something special about the Quran. It is not an ordinary month. The reading of the Quran is very important in that month. That is being done very well. So what objection should any one have? it is silly to dig up something now after 1400 years and start the objection.The Muslim masses are solidly sticking to the teachings of Islam. There is no mistake.

However some Ahle Hadith people have recently opened the books of Hadith and found some differences in the way of prayers and they have also started objections.. That is also wrong. There is no mistake. The very early Muslims were very good, specially those elected as Imams of the Ummah (Caliphs) were almost perfect.. traveeh is a system to read or hear the Quran in the month of ramadhan. That is being done in various ways. If najeeb wants to pray at home, he can do it. Rather he has to do that since he had that bundle of Ahadith researched. So he can do it at home.



Edited by minuteman - 03 September 2008 at 12:33pm
If any one is bad some one must suffer
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asda
 
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Quote asda Replybullet Posted: 03 September 2008 at 1:34pm
Salaams....
 
i asked u a simple basic question....instead of answering it....u went on to discuss the definations of hadith and sunnah and quran....and the merits of praying in mosque.......i dont know where does all this come in this debate...
 
please prove it to me that taraweeh is a sunnah of the prophet (a.s)......and this can only be done thru hadith and sunnah....and not thru ure common sense.....
 
if it is not the sunnah of the prophet (a.s)....then is it a "innovation" started by the so called sahaabas???
 
to admin/mod:it is odd that my post took hours to get approved....and the reply came within no time....
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minuteman
 
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Quote minuteman Replybullet Posted: 04 September 2008 at 7:46am
  Yes, asda, it is a Sunnah. Sunnah is also of two types. The obligatory and non-obligatory.
 
 Traveeh is a non-obligatory Sunnah. It is a genuine prayer practiced by the Sahabah and later modified by Hazrat Umar. I have given you the reply. Please do not call sahabah, the so-called sahabah. Mind it.
If any one is bad some one must suffer
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