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Interfaith Dialogue
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jusaskin
 
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Quote jusaskin Replybullet Topic: tell me where I'm wrong
    Posted: 11 April 2008 at 2:49pm

My purpose for presently being in this forum is to introduce one of my inquisitive grandsons to Islam, and for myself to learn more of your religion from, what I assumed to be, ordinary everyday Muslims. I can read the Quran, Hadith, and various books about Islam, but I wanted to hear Muslims discuss their beliefs among themselves and with others of different faiths, especially Christians. I have formed some opinions and would like a quick check before I leave the forum. Please tell me where you think I am wrong.

Christianity and Islam cannot come to a common understanding of the Creator. For a Christian, Jesus is the second person of the triune God, who became man in order to die on a Roman cross as a sacrifice for all of humanity. The Father, Son and Holy Ghost are what Christians know to be one God, in a unity that is unique to human understanding.

Muslims will never accept those beliefs because they are specifically refuted in the Quran. When there is disagreement about anything, their interpretation of the Quran is the final word because it is supposed to have been sent for that purpose.

The Quran is reported to be in it's original Arabic wording exactly as received by Muhammad from the angel Gabriel, and is therefore believed to be a reliable reference when compared to the scriptures of Christians who must rely on translations of the original works, believed to have been corrupted over time.

A Christian will never accept the Quran's description of Jesus. If he does he ceases to be a Christian.

A Muslim will never accept the words of the Bible when they do not agree with their understanding of the Quran.

For either a Christian or a Muslim to accept the other's understanding of one God requires them to deny their own faith.

Having come to these conclusions, it seems pointless to ask further questions. I am willing to hear opinions on why my conclusions are wrong, but otherwise I feel that I am wasting my time and yours. However, I'd like to sincerely thank all those who were willing to discuss these things with me in the various posts

. Thank you!
joe
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Quote Sign*Reader Replybullet Posted: 11 April 2008 at 6:51pm
Originally posted by jusaskin



My response is in color

My purpose for presently being in this forum is to introduce one of my inquisitive grandsons to Islam, and for myself to learn more of your religion from, what I assumed to be, ordinary everyday Muslims. I can read the Quran, Hadith, and various books about Islam, but I wanted to hear Muslims discuss their beliefs among themselves and with others of different faiths, especially Christians. I have formed some opinions and would like a quick check before I leave the forum. Please tell me where you think I am wrong.

Christianity and Islam cannot come to a common understanding of the Creator. For a Christian, Jesus is the second person of the triune God, who became man in order to die on a Roman cross as a sacrifice for all of humanity. The Father, Son and Holy Ghost are what Christians know to be one God, in a unity that is unique to human understanding.

What about the humanity that passed before Jesus even all the Allah(God) prophets likes of Abraham(as) are they left in the left field?

( It is an old Trintarianism been around way before Christianity )

From the earliest ages, the concept of the Great Goddess was a trinity and the model for all subsequent trinities, female, male or mixed.  Anatolian villages in the 7th millennium B.C. worshipped a Goddess in three aspects – as a young woman, a birth-giving matron, and an old woman.  (See, Merlin Stone, When God Was A Woman at 17). 

This typical Virgin-Mother-Crone combination was Parvati-Durga-Uma (Kali) in India, Ana-Babd-Macha (the Morrigan) in Iceland, or in Greece Hebe-Hera-Hecate, the three Moerae, the three Gorgons, the three Graeae, the three Horae, etc.  Among the Vikins, the threefold Goddess appeared as the Norns; among the Romans, as the Fates or Fortunae; among the Druids, as Diana Triformis.  The Triple Goddess had more than three: she had hundreds of forms.

Pre-Roman Latium worshipped her as the Capitoline Triad under the collective name of Uni, “The One,” a cognate of yoni.  Her three personae were Juventas the Virgin, Juno the Mother, and Menarva or Minerva the wise Crone.  Under the empire, Juventas was ousted to make room for a masculine member of the trinity, Jupiter.  (See, Georges Dumezil, Archaic Roman Religion at 116). 

Some modern scholars refer to the two-female, one-male Capitoline Triad of the later period as “three gods” – as if they might describe a group of two women and one man as “three men.”  (See, J.B. Carter, The Religious Life of Ancient Rome at 26).

 
Cumont says, “Oriental theologians developed the idea that the world forms a trinity; it is three in one and one in three.”  (See, Franz Cumont, Astrology and Religion Among the Greeks and Romans at 69).

The masculine scholar substitutes the neuter “world” for “Goddess,” though they were in a sense synonymous.  It was she who established the Trinitarian form of Creator, Preserver, and Destroyer.  Even though Brahmans evolved a male trinity of Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva to play these parts, Tantric scriptures insisted that the Triple Goddess had created these three gods in the first place.  (See, Amaury de Riencourt, Sex and Power in History at 167).

Mother of the Greek gods was a trinity composed of Virgin Hebe, Mother Hera, and Crone Hecate; at Stymphalus she was worshipped as Child, Bride, and Widow.  (See, Robert Graves, The Greek Myths at 1, 52).

Each of her personae could be a trinity again, so she could be the Muses or the Ninefold Goddess.  Hecate was called Triformis and shown with three faces, each a lunar phase.  Among the Irish she was the Triple Morrigan, or Morgan, sometimes multiplied into “nine sisters” who kept the Cauldron of Regeneration and ruled the western isle of the dead.  (See, Robert Graves, The White Goddess at 406; Alwyn & Brinely Rees, Celtic Heritage at 193).

The Goddess Triformis ruled heaven as Virgin, earth as Mother, and the underworld as Crone, or Hel, or Queen of the Shades.  This was remembered even in Chaucer’s time, for his Palamon invoked her “Three Forms,” Luna in heaven, Diana on earth, Proserpine in hell.  (See, Chaucer, The Canterbury Tales at 81, 511).  The old name of Sicily, Trinacria, invoked her as a “center of the earth” with three realms.

 
Bardic romances abounded in manifestations of the Triple Goddess.  Wayland the Smith married her, after she first appeared to him as three magic doves.  (See, Thomas Keightley, The World Guide to Gnomes, Fairies, Elves and Other Little People at 215)  King Arthur went to Avalon with her.  The triadic Guinevere was another version of her.  Sir Marhaus (Mars) encountered her as the Three Damosels at their magic fountain: the eldest “threesome winters of age, wearing a garland of gold; the second thirty winters of age, wearing a circlet of gold; the youngest fifteen winters of age, wearing a wreath of flowers.”  (See, Sir Thomas Malory, Le Morte d’Arthur at 1, 115).  Fifteen was the number of the pagan Virgin Kore, the pentacle in the apple.  Mythic virgin mothers, like that of Zoroaster, typically gave birth at the age of fifteen.  Double that was the Mother’s age, double again the age of the Crone.

 

The notion of a trinity appeared during the 14th century B.C., a popular Babylonian trinity was composed of Shamash, Sin, and Ishtar – Sun, Moon, and Star.  In Greece this was repeated as Helios the sun, Selene the Moon, and Aphrodite the star.  A Father-Mother-Son trinity was worshipped at Costopitum as Jupiter Dolichenus, Celestial Brigantia and Salus.  (See, Jack Lindsay, The Origins of Astrology at 112, 328, 375; Dorothy Norman, The Hero at 71).

 Gnostic versions of the trinity followed the Father-Mother-Son patterns of the contemporary east, with the Holy Ghost recognized as a female Sophia, the Dove, worshipped as the Great Goddess in Constantinople, and viewed by most Gnostics as the Shakti of God.  The Christian God was originally modeled on Far-Eastern heaven-fathers such as Brahma and Dyaus Pitar, all of whom needed their female sources of “Power,” or else they could not act.  (See, Heinrich Zimmer, Myths and Symbols in Indian Art and Civilization at 25) 

Therefore, a female member of the triad was essential even to God.  Among Arabian Christians there was apparently a holy trinity of God, Mary, and Jesus, worshipped as an interchangeable replacement for the Egyptian trinity of Osiris, Isis, and Horus.  (See, Geoffrey Ashe, The Virgin at 206).

 During the Christian era, all-male trinities became popular among Germanic tribes.  Woden, Thor, and Saxnot were worshipped together by the Saxons of the 8th and 9th centuries.  Norsemen called them Odin, Tyr, and Frey.  According to a certain fragmentary myth, the Triple Goddess seems to have burned as a witch.  She had to be burned to ashes three times.  Afterward, youth, beauty, and love in the person of Freya departed from Asgard; and there was war in heaven.  (See, Brian Branston, Gods of the North at 112, 213-14).



Muslims will never accept those beliefs because they are specifically refuted in the Quran. When there is disagreement about anything, their interpretation of the Quran is the final word because it is supposed to have been sent for that purpose.

The Quran is reported to be in it's original Arabic wording exactly as received by Muhammad from the angel Gabriel, and is therefore believed to be a reliable reference when compared to the scriptures of Christians who must rely on translations of the original works, believed to have been corrupted over time.

Before you compare with Muslims you need to do the same with Jews cuz OT make the first half of  the Bible. It will be quite enlightening !
If you can't convince them how can you ask the Muslims to agree to the concept of the old Trinitarian belief system?

A Christian will never accept the Quran's description of Jesus. If he does he ceases to be a Christian.

A Muslim will never accept the words of the Bible when they do not agree with their understanding of the Quran.

For either a Christian or a Muslim to accept the other's understanding of one God requires them to deny their own faith.

2:113 And the Jews say the Christians follow nothing (true), and the Christians say the Jews follow nothing (true); yet both are readers of the Scripture. Even thus speak those who know not. Allah will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection concerning that wherein they differ.

Having come to these conclusions, it seems pointless to ask further questions. I am willing to hear opinions on why my conclusions are wrong, but otherwise I feel that I am wasting my time and yours. However, I'd like to sincerely thank all those who were willing to discuss these things with me in the various posts

. Thank you!


You are welcome!

This is an inter faith section as a Muslim one should know one guiding principle :
 
29:46 And argue not with the People of the Scripture unless it be in (a way) that is better, save with such of them as do wrong; and say: We believe in that which hath been revealed unto us and revealed unto you; our God and your God is One, and unto Him we surrender.

Edited by Sign*Reader - 11 April 2008 at 11:26pm
Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.
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Shasta'sAunt
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Quote Shasta'sAunt Replybullet Posted: 11 April 2008 at 6:57pm
"Muslims will never accept those beliefs because they are specifically refuted in the Quran. When there is disagreement about anything, their interpretation of the Quran is the final word because it is supposed to have been sent for that purpose."
 
Muslims do not accept this belief, not only because it is refuted in the Quran, but because the very notion of the Trinity implies that God is not monotheistic.  This belief was also held by the followers of the Abrahamic religion until the advent of Saul, who taught that Jesus was divine, and the Council of Nicea who made God a Trinity to explain how Jesus and the Holy Spirit could be divine.
 
Jesus did not teach the doctrine of the Trinity, nor did any Prophet who came before him.


Edited by Shasta'sAunt - 11 April 2008 at 6:57pm
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Quote Servetus Replybullet Posted: 12 April 2008 at 10:03pm

Hi Joe,

 

Welcome to the discussions, from me, a non-Muslim guest.

 
I wouldn’t presume to tell you where you are wrong, as your thread title states, but I might simply rather ask what you were expecting from inter-faith dialogue?  Of course, with rare exceptions, all sides are at best doctrinally intransigent.  I mean, after all, it is religion that is being for the most part discussed and that has an epistemology all its own

 

However much the Muslims might at times seem to like to erect a firewall between themselves and Christians, it might interest you to know that, at one point in their history, early on, when Muslims were besieged by their enemies and a contingent had crossed the Red Sea to seek and obtain the protection of the (probably monophysite) Christian King of Abyssinia (Ethiopia), this is what reportedly transpired:

"The [Christian} King welcomed them [the Muslims] and promised to protect them from their enemies. In the royal presence a question was put to them: “What do you say concerning Jesus?” The spokesman for the group replied, “concerning Jesus we can only say what our Prophet has taught us: Jesus is the servant and messenger of God, the spirit and word of God, whom God entrusted to the Virgin Mary.” When the King Negus heard this testimony, he picked up a twig from the ground and said, “I swear, the difference between what we believe about Jesus, the Son of Mary, and what you have said is not greater than the width of this twig.”" [bold emphasis added]

I emphasize (and place in bold) the latter portion of the statement because it is not at all unusual to hear Muslims insist upon the former part, that Jesus is the servant and messenger of God, a fact with which no Christian should disagree, but it is just that, lately, the other part, “the spirit and word of God,” doesn’t seem to get quite as much airplay on the Muslim side.  I think it was that spirt and word part that St. John tried to describe in the prologue to his Gospel.

 

Best regards,

 

Serv

 

Ref: (note: not able to verify the following source, but do seem to recall having read the above letter in the authenticated History of al-Tabari , Muhammad at Mecca.)

 


Edited by Servetus - 12 April 2008 at 10:05pm
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Quote minuteman Replybullet Posted: 13 April 2008 at 1:51am
 The quotation by Servetus is perfectly right. The first part and the later part are all correct. The Muslims have no reason to deny that Jesus was a word from Allah and a spirit from Allah. If the very early Muslims understood it that way, we cannot do any better than what they understood.
 
 This is a fact described in the Quran that Jesus was Kalimah (a word or message or meaningful sentence) from God (given to Mary). It is also described in the Quran that Jesus was a spirit from God.
 
 So, in short, we Muslims believe that Jesus was:
 
 1. Kalimatullah (a word from Allah)
 2. Roohullah, (Spirit from Allah)
 3. Nabi Allah, (Prophet of Allah)
 4. Rasool Allah, (Messenger from Allah)
 5. Ayatullah, ( A sign from Allah) Ch. 19, verse 21
 6. Rehmatullah (Mercy from Allah) 19:21
 7. Abdullah (Servant of Allah) Ch. 19:30.
 8. Mubarak, (Blessed from Allah)
 9. In peace all the time,
 
 But Jesus is not Allah and he is not son of Allah. Not Ibn Allah.
 
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 13 April 2008 at 9:11am
Originally posted by Servetus

"The spokesman for the group replied, “concerning Jesus we can only say what our Prophet has taught us: Jesus is the servant and messenger of God, the spirit and word of God, whom God entrusted to the Virgin Mary.”"

"Virgin" Mary?  I didn't know that Muslims recognized the miracle of the virgin birth.  So who was Jesus' father? Confused
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 13 April 2008 at 9:29am
I want to add a few words here about the concept of the Trinity, because it seems like many Muslims misunderstand it.
 
All Christians believe that there is only one God.  The Trinity represents three different aspects or ways of understanding that one God, not three separate Gods.
 
As an analogy, I am also three "persons": to my wife I am a Husband: to my daughter I am a Father, and to my nephew I am an Uncle.  My wife, my nephew and my daughter think of me and interact with me very differently, but there's really only one of me.
 
In the same way, Jesus is the manifestation of God as a living person, as known to his contemporaries; God the Father is the creator of the universe, who (as I understand it) cannot be directly known by us; and the Holy Spirit is the "Comforter" whom Jesus promised would come after him, and who can be known directly by anyone who has faith.
 
It's not my own personal belief, so I'd be pleased if a Catholic would care to correct me, but that is my understanding of it.
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Quote Shasta'sAunt Replybullet Posted: 13 April 2008 at 4:27pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb

I want to add a few words here about the concept of the Trinity, because it seems like many Muslims misunderstand it.
 
All Christians believe that there is only one God.  The Trinity represents three different aspects or ways of understanding that one God, not three separate Gods.
 
As an analogy, I am also three "persons": to my wife I am a Husband: to my daughter I am a Father, and to my nephew I am an Uncle.  My wife, my nephew and my daughter think of me and interact with me very differently, but there's really only one of me.
 
In the same way, Jesus is the manifestation of God as a living person, as known to his contemporaries; God the Father is the creator of the universe, who (as I understand it) cannot be directly known by us; and the Holy Spirit is the "Comforter" whom Jesus promised would come after him, and who can be known directly by anyone who has faith.
 
It's not my own personal belief, so I'd be pleased if a Catholic would care to correct me, but that is my understanding of it.
 
However you try to describe the Trinity, you are still taking three separate entities and making them equal to God.
“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
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