Active TopicsActive Topics  Display List of Forum MembersMemberlist  CalendarCalendar  Search The ForumSearch  HelpHelp
  RegisterRegister  LoginLogin  Old ForumOld Forum  Twitter  Facebook
Advertisement:
         

General Discussion
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : General : General Discussion
Message Icon Topic: Clarification needed Post Reply Post New Topic
<< Prev Page  of 9 Next >>
Author Message
Ali Zaki
 
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 10 May 2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 217
Quote Ali Zaki Replybullet Posted: 22 June 2005 at 11:10am

Aalakum Salam "The One"

" I want to know what you mean by worship."

My meaning is not a specific or specialized meaning, it is the meaning that you will find in any dictionary. Here are some.

wor·ship= reverence offered a divine being or supernatural power; also : an act of expressing such reverence

or

extravagant respect or admiration for or devotion to an object of esteem <worship of the dollar>

SOURCE: http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va =worship&x=10&y=17

DIFFERENCE BETWEEN WORSHIP AND REVERANCE

In Islam, there is no problem with showing reverance or respect for REAL things. (such as putting flowers on grave or visiting dead people, shrines (tombs) for REAL people who are worthy of respect, not harming (and caring for ) plants, animals, etc.) This is reverance. The difference between worship and reverance is two things. 1.) Revered things are REAL and ACTUAL things, not something that has been created out of the mind, imagination and 2.) The recognition that these things have NO power in themselves, and are totally and completely dependent on Allah (s.w.a.)

Any object, sign, symbol, etc. (such as a picture of an human/animal, a stone, a piece of wood) that is imaginary, or a real thing that is given divine qualities and revered is (based on the definition above) being worshiped. Materialism is also a form of shirk (and a materialist, in a sense, is also a Mushrik). The reason is that the dollar (or coin) is revered and is given divine qualities (such as the ability to bring happiness, peace) which belongs only to Allah (s.w.a.)

In general anything (other than Allah (s.w.a.)) which is attributed with divine qualities (that were not given by Allah (s.w.a.)) and revered is being worshipped.

"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

Imam Ali (a.s.)
IP IP Logged
Ali Zaki
 
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 10 May 2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 217
Quote Ali Zaki Replybullet Posted: 22 June 2005 at 11:45am

Also,

You said in another post that " I find no difference between a name or image."

Here's the difference,

A name is a man-made creation (i.e., it is not divine) and has absolutely no intrinsic value. A symbol (such as a letter, number, etc.) has no "reality", other than it's agreed upon meaning.

An image is a depiction of something, either real or imaginary. A picture has an intrinsic reality (i.e., it has universal resonance (similar to a musical note)) and it's meaning is RECOGNIZED intrinsicly, even if not understood.

Here is an example of the difference.

To a person who does not know how to read Arabic, the letters "Alif-Lam-Lam-Alif-Ha" are meaningless and have no value to that person. That is absolute proof that the letters and their meaning were created by man and are meaningful only to those who have learned their meaning and agreed to recognize it. These letters are used only to be a "placeholder" for something else, and have no intrinsic value or meaning.

Let's assume (for the sake of argument) that there is a person on the earth who knows absolutely nothing about Islam and has never seen a picture of the Kaba. If a picture of the Kaba were shown to him, his mind would immediately start to make assumptions about what it was that he was looking at. Even if you didn't tell him anything about the reality of what it was, he would make (most likely false) assumptions about what he saw. The picture that he saw would have the effect of creating a false reality regarding the Kaba in his mind. If (years later) he was told about the Kaba and shown the picture again, he would have two realities (a real and false one) competing in his mind.

It is for this reason that, in Islam, letters are used to "symbolise" divine ideas and pictures are not. Pictures of (non-human things, such as angels, jinn, etc.) are forbidden, although they are discussed using words and letters.

As a child, I remember looking at the Sistine chapel. Until I became Muslim, I always pictured (astafirAllah) God as an old man with a white beard sitting on a cloud. When I prayed to God, this is the picture I had in my mind. Intellectually, I knew that this was not God, however, this image that I saw had a lasting and profound effect on my idea of God. This idea was false and had the effect of producing "shirk" in my soul. Only Islam cured me of this diseise. The three letters G-O-D in the Bible certainly DID NOT have this effect.

"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

Imam Ali (a.s.)
IP IP Logged
ZamanH
 
Guest Group
Guest Group
Avatar
Account Suspended

Joined: 21 July 2004
Location: India
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 448
Quote ZamanH Replybullet Posted: 24 June 2005 at 11:55am
As far as I know, if the Muslim woman have sex with you (before or after "marriage") she is answerable for the crime of zina, as the marriage won't be considered valid.
An enemy of an enemy is a fickle friend.
There will be more women in hell than men.
..for persecution is worse than the slaughter of the enemy..(Quran 2:191)
Heaven lies under mother's feet
IP IP Logged
The One
 
Groupie
Groupie
Avatar

Joined: 10 June 2005
Location: India
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 62
Quote The One Replybullet Posted: 25 June 2005 at 10:56am
Salam alaikum Ali Zaki!

That was interesting, but it does not bear any relevance. This is because of what you have said about "difference between worship and reverence" is your view. The meaning you gave is entirely your version. If I ask another, he/she will give a totally different explanation.

Just like language(words), images are also not understood.   You said, "A picture has an intrinsic reality (i.e., it has universal resonance (similar to a musical note)) and it's meaning is RECOGNIZED intrinsicly, even if not understood." Same image holds different meaning to different people and that "similar to a musical note" is not understood by all, it is only understood by the one who knows how to write a musical note. That intrinsic recognition totally depends on the person who percieves it. And "even if not understood" is only regarding very few images just like words.

You also said, "These letters are used only to be a "placeholder" for something else, and have no intrinsic value or meaning." Just replace "letters" with "images" and you find no difference. For example, "Al Rahim" means "The Merciful". Does it completely explain Allah? NO. Its only one of the attributes of Allah. I have said, Hindus do not pray to a stone, they contemplate on the attribute the image implies. Just like you do not pray to the word "Al Rahim", we do not pray to an image.

You just cannot say that a man standing before a stone with closed eyes is praying to that stone.

The argument about Ka'ba was good. It similarly applies to even words. If you say Al Rahim, what is the immediate picture in your mind? Certainly anyones mind cannot be blank. Most of the Muslims think of Ka'ba in their minds.

Its upto the man/woman who wants to see an image as God or contemplate on an idea or principle.

And idol worship is not preached in Hinduism. People practice it due to ignorance.

Aparichithudu.
IP IP Logged
The One
 
Groupie
Groupie
Avatar

Joined: 10 June 2005
Location: India
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 62
Quote The One Replybullet Posted: 25 June 2005 at 12:08pm
Salam alaikum Zaman bhai!

Kya haal hai?

What are you saying? Why is it a crime? I am not a idol worshipper nor a polytheist. Then how can she be punished for sleeping with me?

Aparichithudu.
IP IP Logged
ZamanH
 
Guest Group
Guest Group
Avatar
Account Suspended

Joined: 21 July 2004
Location: India
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 448
Quote ZamanH Replybullet Posted: 26 June 2005 at 8:19pm
Mujhe lagta hai ki tuu jhoot bol rahaa hai. Agar tuu sach bol rahaa hai to shaadi najayaz hogi.
An enemy of an enemy is a fickle friend.
There will be more women in hell than men.
..for persecution is worse than the slaughter of the enemy..(Quran 2:191)
Heaven lies under mother's feet
IP IP Logged
rami
Male  Islam
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar
Senior Member

Joined: 01 March 2000
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2550
Quote rami Replybullet Posted: 26 June 2005 at 11:41pm
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

assalamu alaikum

You are not of the People of the Book Either which would certainly be the only people muslims are alowed to marry if what you were saying was true.

By Islamic defanition The One, Hindu's are polythiest who worship idols/false Gods.  you claim they have power this means that you are atributing divinity to them by islamic terms and atributing divinity and power to Other than Allah.

Allah did not give what Hindu's worship any power to do anything not even intercede on his behalf. Thess figures/idols themselfs which you revere are fictitious and have no reality in islam hence polythiesm.

Allah did not take on any forms nor was he born or given birth, there is nothing like him.

The Hindu trinity is of Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva. They are respectively the creator, preserver and destroyer of the universe. They are also aligned as the transcendent Godhead, Shiva, the cosmic lord, Vishnu and the cosmic mind, Brahma.


By Islamic defanition the Christian Trinity is Polythiesm.

Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
IP IP Logged
Noah
 
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 25 June 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 199
Quote Noah Replybullet Posted: 27 June 2005 at 3:19am
Originally posted by The One

Salam alaikum Zaman bhai!

Kya haal hai?

What are you saying? Why is it a crime? I am not a idol worshipper nor a polytheist. Then how can she be punished for sleeping with me?

Aparichithudu.


Peace freind

If you are not a polytheist, and are a declared monotheist, there are no problem whatsoever according to the Quran. The concept that weman are weaker mentally, and need others to protect their deen is ludicris and have no origin in the Quran whatsoever. I accept the Qurans authority over EVERYTHING else. So lets take a look...

First, do you accept this?
"Those who have faith, and those who are Jewish, and the Converts, and the Nazarenes, whosoever has faith in GOD and the last day and does good works, then they will have nothing to fear nor will they grieve." (5:69)


Do you without question, belive that there is God and your destiny lies with God?

5:7 Today, the good things have been made lawful to you, and the food of those who have been given the Scripture is lawful for you, and your food is lawful for them; and the independent from the believing women, and the independent from the people of the Scripture before you, if you have given them their dowries, protected, chaste, and not seeking to take lovers. And whoever rejects belief, then his work has fallen, and in the Hereafter he is of the losers.

2:221 Do not marry unbelieving women (idolaters,who associate), until they believe: A slave woman who believes is better than an unbelieving woman, even though she allures you. Nor marry (your girls) to unbelievers until they believe: A man slave who believes is better than an unbeliever, even though he allures you. Unbelievers do (but) beckon you to the Fire. But Allah beckons by His Grace to the Garden (of bliss) and forgiveness, and makes His Signs clear to mankind: That they may celebrate His praise.

Its all about monotheism. But because it is men being adressed in these verses, and verses like them. Schoolar thought...well he doesnt mentione females, so we better come up with a proper explanation. The proper explanation is that the Quran is a guidence to ALL mankind, this including weman. So whatever goes for men, goes for weman unless otherwise stated. Such as it is a mans responsability to provide for his spouse. This is not put on weman, but it is altso directly stated, so theres not really an issue here.

Peace
TnE

 
IP IP Logged
<< Prev Page  of 9 Next >>
Post Reply Post New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Disclaimer:
The opinions expressed herein contain positions and viewpoints that are not necessarily those of IslamiCity. This forum is offered to stimulate dialogue and discussion in our continuing mission of being an educational organization.
If there is any issue with any of the postings please email to icforum at islamicity.com or if you are a forum's member you can use the report button.

Note: The 99 names of Allah avatars are courtesy of www.arthafez.com

Advertisement:



Sponsored by:
Islamicity Membership Program:
IslamiCity Donation Program  http://www.islamicity.com/Donate
IslamiCity Arabic eLearning http://www.islamiCity.com/ArabAcademy
Complete Domain & Hosting Solutions www.icDomain.com
Home for Muslim Tunes www.icTunes.com
Islamic Video Collections www.islamiTV.com
IslamiCity Marriage Site www.icMarriage.com