Active TopicsActive Topics  Display List of Forum MembersMemberlist  CalendarCalendar  Search The ForumSearch  HelpHelp
  RegisterRegister  LoginLogin  Old ForumOld Forum  Twitter  Facebook
Advertisement:
         

Interfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Interfaith Dialogue
Message Icon Topic: Ishmael and Isaac(Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post Reply Post New Topic
<< Prev Page  of 34 Next >>
Author Message
robin
 
Senior Member
Senior  Member


Joined: 17 May 2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 595
bullet Posted: 23 May 2008 at 4:57am
Originally posted by honeto

It is just me who is lost what Robin is saying here, or someone get it?
 
Robin,
1- You  said: "he is Abrahams son but not by God will or way"Are you     saying Abraham has Ishmael without the will of God?
2- I don't know what you mean with this: "can only be view his wife."
3- Then you also say " Ishamel was blessed but not with the promises of Abraham",
 
Can you please clear those three so we can proceed.
Hasan
 
1- You  said: "he is Abrahams son but not by God will or way" Are you     saying Abraham has Ishmael without the will of God?

Ishmael was from Sarah’s maid, with no recorded of God telling Abraham to have a son by his wife’s maid, thus Ishmael came to be by man’s will not by God promise or direction!

 
2- I don't know what you mean with this: "can only be view his wife."

Sorry my mistake it should read "can only be VIA his wife."

 
3- Then you also say " Ishmael was blessed but not with the promises of Abraham",

Abraham had the promise that from him would come The Seed (or Messiah as the Bible latter reviles) that would bless all the nations.-Gen 26:4



Edited by robin - 23 May 2008 at 4:58am
IP IP Logged
Nur_Ilahi
 
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 19 January 2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1031
bullet Posted: 23 May 2008 at 7:00am
Salam Hassan,
 
You wrote -

Genesis 22:2 Then He (God)said, “Take now your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I shall tell you.”

The above quote is one of the numerous examples of the contradictions in the Bible.
 
Believer, God wanted to test Abraham with the sacrifice of his beloved son, his first born, at that time his only son, Ishmael. God would not have tested him, if he has two sons, because this task would be easy for him.
 
Ismael was the long awaited son, so precious to Abraham, yet Ismael was required to be sacrificed by God, but because of his faith with God AlMighty, Abraham did not even sway from his faith with God.
 
By the way, God's plan to put Hagar in Mecca was because He knew what kind of people the Bani Israel were - killing prophets was their favourite past-time. The Jews even tried to do that to Muhammad, but of course God is the best of planners.
Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.
IP IP Logged
Nur_Ilahi
 
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 19 January 2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1031
bullet Posted: 23 May 2008 at 7:13am
Originally posted by believer

Oh ok.  I was thinking along the lines of here on earth.  LOL!!  Remember Jesus is GOD
 
OK, I correct my statement, no new covenants, is that correct?  Just the rules changed?  A new set of rules for those that want to follow something other than the Jewish Law or Jesus.
 
 
 
IF JESUS IS GOD, is there anything that proves he created this whole wide world? The rivers, the oceans, the leaves, the stars and all that is in this unverse?
 
The original Torah which was sent to Moses was corrupted and what you people called the Old Testament, the Injeel which was sent down to Jesus and now also corrupted is called the New Testament, but ALQURAN sent to Muhammad, guaranted by GOD ALMIGHTY HIMSELF IS CALLED THE FINAL TESTAMENT.
Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.
IP IP Logged
robin
 
Senior Member
Senior  Member


Joined: 17 May 2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 595
bullet Posted: 24 May 2008 at 12:30am
Originally posted by Nur_Ilahi

Salam Hassan,
 
You wrote -

Genesis 22:2 Then He (God)said, “Take now your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I shall tell you.”

The above quote is one of the numerous examples of the contradictions in the Bible.
 
Believer, God wanted to test Abraham with the sacrifice of his beloved son, his first born, at that time his only son, Ishmael. God would not have tested him, if he has two sons, because this task would be easy for him.
 
Ismael was the long awaited son, so precious to Abraham, yet Ismael was required to be sacrificed by God, but because of his faith with God AlMighty, Abraham did not even sway from his faith with God.
 
By the way, God's plan to put Hagar in Mecca was because He knew what kind of people the Bani Israel were - killing prophets was their favourite past-time. The Jews even tried to do that to Muhammad, but of course God is the best of planners.
 
God commanded Abraham to sacrifice "your son, your only son." (Gen. 22:2) In connection with Abraham’s offering up this son, the promise of blessing by means of Abraham’s seed was stated by an angel of God. The Qur’an, too, speaks of Abraham as having a "boy ready to suffer and forbear" and whom Abraham would "offer . . . in sacrifice." (Sura 37:101, 102) The Qur’an does not specify who the boy was. However, some Moslem writers claim that the expression "only son" must apply to Ishmael.
 
It is noteworthy that Isaac was an "only son" in a double sense. He was the only son of Abraham’s wife Sarah and the only son remaining in Abraham’s household at the time that God spoke the words found at Genesis 22:1, 2. Qur’an translator Ali admits that "Muslim tradition . . . is not unanimous on this point." Some Moslem writers agree with the Biblical account that Isaac was the prospective sacrifice.
 
It is that you do not yet grasp the meanings of the Bible that leads you to say it is a contradiction.


Edited by robin - 24 May 2008 at 12:32am
IP IP Logged
Shasta'sAunt
Female  Islam
Senior Member
Senior  Member


Joined: 29 March 2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1930
bullet Posted: 24 May 2008 at 2:56am
"It is noteworthy that Isaac was an "only son" in a double sense. He was the only son of Abraham’s wife Sarah and the only son remaining in Abraham’s household at the time that God spoke the words found at Genesis 22:1, 2. Qur’an translator Ali admits that "Muslim tradition . . . is not unanimous on this point." Some Moslem writers agree with the Biblical account that Isaac was the prospective sacrifice."
 
But the Bible does not specify the only son of Abraham and Sarah. Nor does it specify your only remaining son. It states your only son, which would indicate the only son in existence at the time God ordered the sacrifice.
 
BTW: Muslims believe that Abraham and Hajar were married so only legitimate son would not apply.
 
 
“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt
IP IP Logged
robin
 
Senior Member
Senior  Member


Joined: 17 May 2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 595
bullet Posted: 24 May 2008 at 4:08am
Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt

"It is noteworthy that Isaac was an "only son" in a double sense. He was the only son of Abraham’s wife Sarah and the only son remaining in Abraham’s household at the time that God spoke the words found at Genesis 22:1, 2. Qur’an translator Ali admits that "Muslim tradition . . . is not unanimous on this point." Some Moslem writers agree with the Biblical account that Isaac was the prospective sacrifice."
 
But the Bible does not specify the only son of Abraham and Sarah. Nor does it specify your only remaining son. It states your only son, which would indicate the only son in existence at the time God ordered the sacrifice.
 
BTW: Muslims believe that Abraham and Hajar were married so only legitimate son would not apply.
 
 
 
The Bible shows you to be wrong:-
 
Genesis 16:1-4
Now Sar´ai, A´bram’s wife, had borne him no children; but she had an Egyptian maidservant and her name was Ha´gar. 2 Hence Sar´ai said to A´bram: "Please now! Jehovah has shut me off from bearing children. Please, have relations with my maidservant. Perhaps I may get children from her." So A´bram listened to the voice of Sar´ai. 3 Then Sar´ai, A´bram’s wife, took Ha´gar, her Egyptian maidservant, at the end of ten years of A´bram’s dwelling in the land of Ca´naan, and gave her to A´bram her husband as his wife. 4 Accordingly he had relations with Ha´gar, and she became pregnant. When she became aware that she was pregnant, then her mistress began to be despised in her eyes.
 
Genesis 16:15-16
Later on Ha´gar bore to A´bram a son and A´bram called the name of his son whom Ha´gar bore Ish´ma·el. 16 And A´bram was eighty-six years old at Ha´gar’s bearing Ish´ma·el to A´bram.
 
Genesis 25:12
And this is the history of Ish´ma·el the son of Abraham whom Ha´gar the Egyptian the maidservant of Sarah bore to Abraham.
 
Abraham's other wife:-
Genesis 25:1-2
Furthermore, Abraham again took a wife, and her name was Ke·tu´rah. 2 In time she bore him Zim´ran and Jok´shan and Me´dan and Mid´i·an and Ish´bak and Shu´ah.
 
Genesis 25:5-6
Later on Abraham gave everything he had to Isaac, 6 but to the sons of the concubines that Abraham had Abraham gave gifts. Then he sent them away from Isaac his son, while he was still alive, eastward, to the land of the East.
 
 
The meaning, in part, of the above:-
Galatians 4:21-26
Tell me, YOU who want to be under law, Do YOU not hear the Law? 22 For example, it is written that Abraham acquired two sons, one by the servant girl and one by the free woman; 23 but the one by the servant girl was actually born in the manner of flesh, the other by the free woman through a promise. 24 These things stand as a symbolic drama; for these [women] mean two covenants, the one from Mount Si´nai, which brings forth children for slavery, and which is Ha´gar. 25 Now this Ha´gar means Si´nai, a mountain in Arabia, and she corresponds with the Jerusalem today, for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.
 
 


Edited by robin - 24 May 2008 at 4:14am
IP IP Logged
Nur_Ilahi
 
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 19 January 2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1031
bullet Posted: 24 May 2008 at 7:35am
Robin,
 
How can you expect us to believe what the Bible wrote, when the word Bible and Christianity was not even mentioned in the Bible?
 
 
Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.
IP IP Logged
robin
 
Senior Member
Senior  Member


Joined: 17 May 2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 595
bullet Posted: 24 May 2008 at 8:49am
Originally posted by Nur_Ilahi

Robin,
 
How can you expect us to believe what the Bible wrote, when the word Bible and Christianity was not even mentioned in the Bible?
 
 
 
How do you excect anyone to beleive what you say about the Quran etc. when you do not beleive the Bible, upon which Islam say the Quran is based?
 
The more you run down the Bible the more you destroy trust in your own faith as you claim they both come from the same God and the same book!
 

THE QUR'AN'S TESTAMENT ON THE BIBLE

 

Su 4:163  We have sent thee Inspiration, as We sent it To Noah and the Messengers After him: We sent Inspiration to Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob And the Tribes, to  Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and Solomon, And to David We gave The Psalms

 

164  Of some apostles We have Already told thee the  story; Of others we have not;- And Moses God spoke direct;-

 

165  Apostles who gave good news As well as warning,  That mankind, after (the coming) Of the apostles, should have No plea against God: For God is Exalted in Power,

 

ALL Muslims Must Believe The all the Apostles including Paul according to the Qur'an?

 

2:87   We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of Apostles; We gave Jesus the son of Mary Clear (Signs) and strengthened him with the Holy Spirit. Is it that whenever there comes to you an Apostle with what ye yourselves desire not, ye are puffed up with pride? --Some ye call impostors, and others ye slay!

 

2:253  Those apostles we endowed with gifts, some above others: To one of them Allah spoke; others He raised to degrees (of honor); to Jesus the son of Mary we gave Clear (Signs), and strengthened him with the holy spirit. If Allah had so willed, succeeding generations would not have fought among each other, after Clear (Signs) had come to them, but they (chose) to wrangle, some believing and others rejecting. If Allah had so willed, they would not have fought each other; but Allah fulfilleth His plan.

 

2:285  The Apostle believeth in what hath been revealed to him from his Lord, as do the men of faith. Each one (of them) believeth in Allah, His angels, His books, and His apostles. "We make no distinction (they say) between one and another of His apostles." And they say "We hear, and we obey: (We seek) Thy forgiveness, our Lord, and to Thee is the end of all journeys."

 

3:3  It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the Criterion (of judgement between right and wrong).

 

4:136  O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His Apostle, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Apostle and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth Allah, His Angels, His Books, His Apostles, and the Day of Judgement, hath gone far, far astray.

 

4:150  Those who deny God And His apostles, and (those Who) wish to separate God from His apostles, Saying: "We believe in some But reject others": And (those who) wish To take a course midway,-

 

152  To those who believe In God and His apostles

And make no distinction Between any of the apostles, We shall soon give Their (due) rewards:  For God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

 

4:165  Apostles who gave good news as well as warning that mankind, after (the coming) of the apostles, should have no plea against Allah: For Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.

 

5:13   Allah did aforetime take a Covenant from the Children of Israel, and We appointed twelve captains among them. And Allah said: "I am with you: If ye (but) establish regular Prayers, practice regular Charity, believe in My apostles, honor and assist them, and loan to Allah a beautiful loan, verily I will wipe out from you your evils, and admit you to Gardens with rivers flowing beneath; but if any of you, after this, resisteth faith, he hath truly wandered from the path of rectitude."

 

5:71  Say: "O People of the Book! Ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord." It is the revelation that cometh to thee from thy Lord, that increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. But sorrow thou not over (these) people without Faith.

 

 

The Bible held in high esteem as being true and accurate!!

Surahs:

2:38, 83, 91, 95; 3:2; 4:50; 6:34, 115; 10:65; 18:25; 45:19;

IP IP Logged
<< Prev Page  of 34 Next >>
Post Reply Post New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Disclaimer:
The opinions expressed herein contain positions and viewpoints that are not necessarily those of IslamiCity. This forum is offered to stimulate dialogue and discussion in our continuing mission of being an educational organization.
If there is any issue with any of the postings please email to icforum at islamicity.com or if you are a forum's member you can use the report button.

Note: The 99 names of Allah avatars are courtesy of www.arthafez.com

Advertisement:



Sponsored by:
Islamicity Membership Program:
IslamiCity Donation Program  http://www.islamicity.com/Donate
IslamiCity Arabic eLearning http://www.islamiCity.com/ArabAcademy
Complete Domain & Hosting Solutions www.icDomain.com
Home for Muslim Tunes www.icTunes.com
Islamic Video Collections www.islamiTV.com
IslamiCity Marriage Site www.icMarriage.com