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Interfaith Dialogue
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Message Icon Topic: Ishmael and Isaac(Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post Reply Post New Topic
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believer
 
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bullet Posted: 14 April 2008 at 5:08pm
Oh ok.  I was thinking along the lines of here on earth.  LOL!!  Remember Jesus is GOD
 
OK, I correct my statement, no new covenants, is that correct?  Just the rules changed?  A new set of rules for those that want to follow something other than the Jewish Law or Jesus.
 
 
John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
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honeto
 
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bullet Posted: 14 April 2008 at 5:33pm
believer writes,
 
"A new set of rules for those that want to follow something other than the Jewish Law or Jesus."
sorry, you are wrong again, the correct answer is that to redirect those who altered and strayed from the previous guidance sent to Jesus and prophets (pbut) before him, so we can achieve eternal salvation.
Hasan


Edited by honeto - 14 April 2008 at 5:33pm
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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minuteman
 
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bullet Posted: 15 April 2008 at 7:16am
Originally posted by believer

Oh ok.  I was thinking along the lines of here on earth.  LOL!!  Remember Jesus is GOD
 
OK, I correct my statement, no new covenants, is that correct?  Just the rules changed?  A new set of rules for those that want to follow something other than the Jewish Law or Jesus.
  
 
 Because the Jews and the christians had lost the true guidance given to them. They purposely altered the words in their scripture and tried to tell every one that it was from God but it was not. Due to making alteration in their sacred books, their books had become useless. So new message was needed.
 
 Also, it was all linked to Abraham who was the fore father of the Jews and the Arabs. He had two sons Ishmael (the first born) and Issac who was 14 years younger to Ishmael. They both inherited spiritual as well as material inheritance from their father, in far, different areas.
 
 The Jews and Christians had somehow got bent on dis-inheriting the first born son of Abraham. That was bad. It was told to Abraham that Ishmael will also be blessed. But the Jews and Christians tried to take away that blessing. There was no need to do that. Niether Abraham nor Sarah was bad. The story that Sarah did not like Ishmael or hagar is all false story to dis-inherit Ishmael and his progeny.
 
 So please tell us, it was necessary to correct that big mistake or not? Abraham had prayed a lot for Ishmael and his off springs. He loved his first born son Ishmael, of old age. For a very long time, Ishmael was the only son of Abraham. Issac was never the only son of Abraham. Please see the things on these lines and you may understand better.  Peace.
If any one is bad some one must suffer
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Shasta'sAunt
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bullet Posted: 15 April 2008 at 1:48pm
Originally posted by believer

Oh ok.  I was thinking along the lines of here on earth.  LOL!!  Remember Jesus is GOD
 
OK, I correct my statement, no new covenants, is that correct?  Just the rules changed?  A new set of rules for those that want to follow something other than the Jewish Law or Jesus.
 
 
 
Actually Muslims are not the ones who changed all of God's original covenents with the Jews.  Ponder that the next time your eating a ham sandwich or when it's time to get your son circumcised.  Or you are worshipping Jesus as the Lord God.
 
And if I remember my NT correctly, Jesus didn't change the covenents either, it was Paul/Saul who was responsible for most of that. 


Edited by Shasta'sAunt - 15 April 2008 at 1:49pm
“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt
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believer
 
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bullet Posted: 15 April 2008 at 8:06pm
Where does Paul change covenants?
 
Yes Jesus is GOD He would not change the rules, He fulfilled the rules.   The gentiles are brought into the covenant through Jesus.
John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
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bullet Posted: 15 April 2008 at 8:13pm
minuteman- no remember Quran confirms the Torah and Gospel.  Bible more valueable today then ever before.
 
Not sure what you mean by:
They both inherited spiritual as well as material inheritance from their father, in far, different areas.
 
LOL!!  Does the quran mention this:
The Jews and Christians had somehow got bent on dis-inheriting the first born son of Abraham. 
 
What do you believe the blessing to be?
 
 It was told to Abraham that Ishmael will also be blessed.
 
Why were they sent away?
 
The story that Sarah did not like Ishmael or hagar is all false story to dis-inherit Ishmael and his progeny.
John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
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honeto
 
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bullet Posted: 21 April 2008 at 12:04pm
hi beleiver,
it seems useless to discuss anything about why were they Ishmael and Hagar were sent away when me must solve the bigger problem with that part of the book, the contradiction about who was the the first son of Abraham, and who was second and third?? Only the first son at time (until the birth of the second) can be refered to as the "only son".
Without clearing that fact, why do we take up anything else.
Hasan


Edited by honeto - 21 April 2008 at 12:06pm
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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minuteman
 
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bullet Posted: 21 April 2008 at 11:52pm
Originally posted by believer

minuteman- no remember Quran confirms the Torah and Gospel.  Bible more valueable today then ever before.
 
Not sure what you mean by:
They both inherited spiritual as well as material inheritance from their father, in far, different areas. (See note 1 below)
 
LOL!!  Does the quran mention this:
The Jews and Christians had somehow got bent on dis-inheriting the first born son of Abraham. (See note 2 below)
 
What do you believe the blessing to be?
 
 It was told to Abraham that Ishmael will also be blessed. (note 3)
 
Why were they sent away?
 
The story that Sarah did not like Ishmael or hagar is all false story to dis-inherit Ishmael and his progeny. (note 4  and more)
 
  Note 1. I need not inform you about the spiritual inheritance of Issac and Ishmael. You know better. Ishmael was the only son of Abraham for many years and no hope for any more son. he even had shown surprise that he will get another son from sarah. He had no hope. So all his prayers for blessings were for his only son Ishmael for long time. That should be easy for your to understand about the spiritual blessings.
 
 Now about the material blessings, please note that he settled both his sons far away apart from each other. i.e. One in palestine and one in Hijaz (Arabia). For blessing please see genesis chapter 17 below:
 
 19 Then God said, "Yes, but your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you will call him Isaac. [d] I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him. 20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation. 21 But my covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you by this time next year." 22 When he had finished speaking with Abraham, God went up from him.
 
  Note 2.  I am not worried about whether the Quran mentions or not about disinheriting Ishmael. It is very much in the bible and in the behaviour of the people of the book. No doubt about it. You do not read your own books. I am sure that Sarah had asked Abraham that Ishmael will not inherit with her son Issac. That is in your bible. (It is not true at all).
 
  note 3: Nature of blessing has been explained to you above.
 
  Note 4: Why were they sent away? That is a good question. It was not due to the request of sarah. It was under the divine plan that Abraham took his only son Ishmael in a very young age to the area near makkah (Arabia).
 
 If we do not believe that it was under divine plan then we have to believe that Abraham was a very wise man. he settled his sons at far distance. He was aware of the kings and soldiers attitude from Iraq where he was arrested by the order of the king.
 
 He setteled his first born son in the wilderness of Arabia where no kings will be interested. Unlike, the children of Issac who had to serve the Egyptians as slave boys and slave girls for many years, the children of Ishmael had not to do any such thing in Arabia.
 
 Then in the end days, the children of Issac had to suffer much under the Roman king and Jesus had to be arrested and put on the cross. That was very bad, all due to the Roman king and his soldiers. Nothing of that kind happened to our holy prophet Muhammad in Arabia. He had to face much trouble from his own countrymen (citymen). But nothing from any king and kings forces. So he was successful in routing the enemies of mankind.
 
 Before the world knew anything, Islam was well established, Al hamdu Lillah. I have nothing against Abraham or sarah or issac or Jesus. They were all beloved  of God.


Edited by minuteman - 22 April 2008 at 12:00am
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