IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum: Ishmael and Isaac

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Angela
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Posted: 02 December 2008 at 6:33am

One must understand the Bible is NOT like the Quran.

The Bible is a collection of books collected and bound together. Thus, the Book of Revelations written around 100AD by John of Patmos sits at the end even though the Acts of the Apostles was written must later.

Originally posted by Hasan

Genesis 22:2 Then He (God)said, “Take now your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I shall tell you.”

In my opinion someone did not fix it right. Because by the time Abraham had Isaac, he already had Ishmael. So Isaac cannot be refered as "the only son"

Hasan

Actually, by the time that Isaac was sacrificed, Ishmael had already been banished by Abraham with Hagar. In effect, its far more tragic than any of us realize. First, he was forced to give up his son Ishmael to the fighting of his two wives, then he was told to kill the only son he had left.

Either way...does it really matter to the eternal salvation of all which boy was placed on the alter?

The test is the true point of this story. Even though Abraham knew that human sacrifice was wrong and even though he had been tested with infertility and blessed with his sons..... He obeyed God's direct command.

That was the test. And when we argue over the details, we fail to learn the lesson.

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honeto

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Posted: 02 December 2008 at 5:02pm

Originally posted by Angela

One must understand the Bible is NOT like the Quran.

The Bible is a collection of books collected and bound together. Thus, the Book of Revelations written around 100AD by John of Patmos sits at the end even though the Acts of the Apostles was written must later.

Originally posted by Hasan

In my opinion someone did not fix it right. Because by the time Abraham had Isaac, he already had Ishmael. So Isaac cannot be refered as "the only son"

Hasan

Angela,

my point was to show the mistake or inconsistancy in the Bible regarding this event. I agree with you on the test issue, it was all about passing the test of faith in God.

As Muslims we do remember this event and sacrifice a ram or lamb as Abraham (pbuh) did.

Hasan

39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"

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Angela
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Posted: 08 December 2008 at 2:31am

And that in the end is all that matters, we remember the test.

I kinda see the fight over Isaac and Ishmael to be a fight among families keen to be seen as the only heirs.

When we fight over this....we forget that these boys were brothers and that their Father was tested over and over in regards to his children. Would he have them? Did he have to give them up? Did he have to kill them?

Only Job was put on a more horrendous trial of faith and obedience.

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myahya

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Posted: 08 December 2008 at 4:13am

Angela: That was the test. And when we argue over the details, we fail to learn the lesson.

In your post you argue that Issac was the son to be sacrificed then you say there is no point in arguing it. Why do you argue then?!!! Just start reading your own post. I wonder if you really feel you have failed to learn the lesson by the paragraph you stated that Issac was to be sacrificed.

Edited by myahya - 08 December 2008 at 4:14am

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Angela
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Posted: 08 December 2008 at 10:15am

I simply stated my belief in which was the son. But, I still feel the important part is the lesson. Why do I have to change my belief in my scripture to accept the lesson of obedience.

Do you disagree with the lesson is more important than the players?

Example, there are many scholars who question many of the King Solomon stories. Does that invalidate the lessons we have learned from studying those scriptures?

Jesus (Isa) was fond of teaching by parable. If I dwelt on the nationality or identity of the 10 virgins, I would completely miss the point of the story.

Just like arguing over names and what names these people called themselves. We must read our scriptures, pray about them and learn the intended lessons.

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honeto

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Posted: 08 December 2008 at 2:44pm

Angela,

lessons are important and are there for a purpose. Every 'sacred' book has many such lessons.

We don't have any problem with lessons nor are we argue about them. What I have pointed out is simple and to just show what I see as a clear inconsistancy of the Bible regarding this event. Nobody is suggesting you to change your belief rather just straighten the facts.

Hasan

Edited by honeto - 08 December 2008 at 2:45pm

39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"

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myahya

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Posted: 09 December 2008 at 7:33am

Angela: Why do I have to change my belief in my scripture to accept the lesson of obedience?

Also, I do not have to change my belief in my religion (regarding the sacrifice of Ishmael) to accept the lesson of obedience. In fact only one of them is the truth one which we believe is the sacrifice of Ishmael. One day Allah s.w.t. shows it to mankind, we wait and see.

Angela: Do you disagree with the lesson is more important than the players?

It depends. If one intends to refute or degrade a prophet by arguing the players of this story, then it becomes important and I would argue in reply. It is very important to know the prophets. Religiously speaking our means of obedience to God is only satisfied through following the prophets and their messages.

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Angela
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Posted: 10 December 2008 at 3:12am

Originally posted by myahya

Just a Question, what is the Status of Isaac in Islam?

I am curious. Coming from a Judaic-Christian Background, our roots are traced through Isaac.

Biblically, Ishmael was promised a progeny that traces itself to the Arab peoples and their connection with Father Abraham. He was promised a nation. The twelve sons of Ishmael, were named Nebaioth, Kedar, Adbeel, Mibsam, Mishma, Dumah, Massa, Hadad, Tema, Jetur, Naphish, and Kedemah.

The Israelites descend from Isaac through his son Jacob/Israel. His sons founded the tribes of Israel of which today, only the Levites and Jews are still together. (The other 10 being gathered in the Last Days according to Prophecy.) His sons were Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Dan, Naphtali, Gad, Asher, Issachar, Zebulun, Joseph, and Benjamin.

Each of these two son's has a great legacy, but from the time of their Father's death, they walked separate paths.

We know that the 12 tribes were destroyed and scattered in diaspora.

We know that Ishmael's descendents fell into paganism and Muhammed (pbuh) was sent to bring them the Truth of the One God.

Islam teaches that the Prophet's Message brought the truth of the Prophets that came after Abraham. David, Solomon, Isaiah, John the Baptist. He even included one of the most famous of Isaac's descendents Jesus (Isa) in his revelations to the son's of Ishmael.

I am curious about the status of Isaac in Islam considering it is his line that carried the Prophethood from his Father to Jesus (Isa).

We both believe that there were no Prophet's between Jesus and Muhammed (pbut). Muhammed was sent to restore the Pagans and astray back to the One True God.

I sometimes feel... and this is just an impression, that there are many Muslims (not Islam itself, sometimes there is a big difference) who place a superiority to Ishmael over his brother. Yet, we are told by Muhammed (pbuh) and the Quran that we are not to treat any Prophet of God over another. They are all equal.

So, for the sake of this arguement, I will go with the revelation of the Quran that it was Ishmael that went with his Father that day and not Isaac.

Where does this leave Isaac in Islam?

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Topic: Ishmael and Isaac( Topic Closed)
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Author	Message
Angela Female Senior Member Joined: 11 July 2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2555	Posted: 02 December 2008 at 6:33am
	One must understand the Bible is NOT like the Quran. The Bible is a collection of books collected and bound together. Thus, the Book of Revelations written around 100AD by John of Patmos sits at the end even though the Acts of the Apostles was written must later. *Originally posted by Hasan* Genesis 22:2 Then He (God)said, “Take now your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I shall tell you.” In my opinion someone did not fix it right. Because by the time Abraham had Isaac, he already had Ishmael. So Isaac cannot be refered as "the only son" Hasan Actually, by the time that Isaac was sacrificed, Ishmael had already been banished by Abraham with Hagar. In effect, its far more tragic than any of us realize. First, he was forced to give up his son Ishmael to the fighting of his two wives, then he was told to kill the only son he had left. Either way...does it really matter to the eternal salvation of all which boy was placed on the alter? The test is the true point of this story. Even though Abraham knew that human sacrifice was wrong and even though he had been tested with infertility and blessed with his sons..... He obeyed God's direct command. That was the test. And when we argue over the details, we fail to learn the lesson.
	IP Logged

honeto Senior Member Joined: 20 March 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2340	Posted: 02 December 2008 at 5:02pm
	*Originally posted by Angela* One must understand the Bible is NOT like the Quran. The Bible is a collection of books collected and bound together. Thus, the Book of Revelations written around 100AD by John of Patmos sits at the end even though the Acts of the Apostles was written must later. *Originally posted by Hasan* Genesis 22:2 Then He (God)said, “Take now your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I shall tell you.” In my opinion someone did not fix it right. Because by the time Abraham had Isaac, he already had Ishmael. So Isaac cannot be refered as "the only son" Hasan Actually, by the time that Isaac was sacrificed, Ishmael had already been banished by Abraham with Hagar. In effect, its far more tragic than any of us realize. First, he was forced to give up his son Ishmael to the fighting of his two wives, then he was told to kill the only son he had left. Either way...does it really matter to the eternal salvation of all which boy was placed on the alter? The test is the true point of this story. Even though Abraham knew that human sacrifice was wrong and even though he had been tested with infertility and blessed with his sons..... He obeyed God's direct command. That was the test. And when we argue over the details, we fail to learn the lesson. Angela, my point was to show the mistake or inconsistancy in the Bible regarding this event. I agree with you on the test issue, it was all about passing the test of faith in God. As Muslims we do remember this event and sacrifice a ram or lamb as Abraham (pbuh) did. Hasan
	39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
	IP Logged

Angela Female Senior Member Joined: 11 July 2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2555	Posted: 08 December 2008 at 2:31am
	And that in the end is all that matters, we remember the test. I kinda see the fight over Isaac and Ishmael to be a fight among families keen to be seen as the only heirs. When we fight over this....we forget that these boys were brothers and that their Father was tested over and over in regards to his children. Would he have them? Did he have to give them up? Did he have to kill them? Only Job was put on a more horrendous trial of faith and obedience.
	IP Logged

myahya Senior Member Joined: 06 February 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 222	Posted: 08 December 2008 at 4:13am
	Angela: That was the test. And when we argue over the details, we fail to learn the lesson. In your post you argue that Issac was the son to be sacrificed then you say there is no point in arguing it. Why do you argue then?!!! Just start reading your own post. I wonder if you really feel you have failed to learn the lesson by the paragraph you stated that Issac was to be sacrificed. Edited by myahya - 08 December 2008 at 4:14am
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Angela Female Senior Member Joined: 11 July 2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2555	Posted: 08 December 2008 at 10:15am
	I simply stated my belief in which was the son. But, I still feel the important part is the lesson. Why do I have to change my belief in my scripture to accept the lesson of obedience. Do you disagree with the lesson is more important than the players? Example, there are many scholars who question many of the King Solomon stories. Does that invalidate the lessons we have learned from studying those scriptures? Jesus (Isa) was fond of teaching by parable. If I dwelt on the nationality or identity of the 10 virgins, I would completely miss the point of the story. Just like arguing over names and what names these people called themselves. We must read our scriptures, pray about them and learn the intended lessons.
	IP Logged

honeto Senior Member Joined: 20 March 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2340	Posted: 08 December 2008 at 2:44pm
	Angela, lessons are important and are there for a purpose. Every 'sacred' book has many such lessons. We don't have any problem with lessons nor are we argue about them. What I have pointed out is simple and to just show what I see as a clear inconsistancy of the Bible regarding this event. Nobody is suggesting you to change your belief rather just straighten the facts. Hasan Edited by honeto - 08 December 2008 at 2:45pm
	39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
	IP Logged

myahya Senior Member Joined: 06 February 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 222	Posted: 09 December 2008 at 7:33am
	Angela: Why do I have to change my belief in my scripture to accept the lesson of obedience? Also, I do not have to change my belief in my religion (regarding the sacrifice of Ishmael) to accept the lesson of obedience. In fact only one of them is the truth one which we believe is the sacrifice of Ishmael. One day Allah s.w.t. shows it to mankind, we wait and see. Angela: Do you disagree with the lesson is more important than the players? It depends. If one intends to refute or degrade a prophet by arguing the players of this story, then it becomes important and I would argue in reply. It is very important to know the prophets. Religiously speaking our means of obedience to God is only satisfied through following the prophets and their messages.
	IP Logged

Angela Female Senior Member Joined: 11 July 2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2555	Posted: 10 December 2008 at 3:12am
	*Originally posted by myahya* It depends. If one intends to refute or degrade a prophet by arguing the players of this story, then it becomes important and I would argue in reply. It is very important to know the prophets. Religiously speaking our means of obedience to God is only satisfied through following the prophets and their messages. Just a Question, what is the Status of Isaac in Islam? I am curious. Coming from a Judaic-Christian Background, our roots are traced through Isaac. Biblically, Ishmael was promised a progeny that traces itself to the Arab peoples and their connection with Father Abraham. He was promised a nation. The twelve sons of Ishmael, were named Nebaioth, Kedar, Adbeel, Mibsam, Mishma, Dumah, Massa, Hadad, Tema, Jetur, Naphish, and Kedemah. The Israelites descend from Isaac through his son Jacob/Israel. His sons founded the tribes of Israel of which today, only the Levites and Jews are still together. (The other 10 being gathered in the Last Days according to Prophecy.) His sons were Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Dan, Naphtali, Gad, Asher, Issachar, Zebulun, Joseph, and Benjamin. Each of these two son's has a great legacy, but from the time of their Father's death, they walked separate paths. We know that the 12 tribes were destroyed and scattered in diaspora. We know that Ishmael's descendents fell into paganism and Muhammed (pbuh) was sent to bring them the Truth of the One God. Islam teaches that the Prophet's Message brought the truth of the Prophets that came after Abraham. David, Solomon, Isaiah, John the Baptist. He even included one of the most famous of Isaac's descendents Jesus (Isa) in his revelations to the son's of Ishmael. I am curious about the status of Isaac in Islam considering it is his line that carried the Prophethood from his Father to Jesus (Isa). We both believe that there were no Prophet's between Jesus and Muhammed (pbut). Muhammed was sent to restore the Pagans and astray back to the One True God. I sometimes feel... and this is just an impression, that there are many Muslims (not Islam itself, sometimes there is a big difference) who place a superiority to Ishmael over his brother. Yet, we are told by Muhammed (pbuh) and the Quran that we are not to treat any Prophet of God over another. They are all equal. So, for the sake of this arguement, I will go with the revelation of the Quran that it was Ishmael that went with his Father that day and not Isaac. Where does this leave Isaac in Islam?
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