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Originally posted by Servetus

Originally posted by Shasta’sAunt

Muslims believe that all of Allah's Messengers and Prophets are the same. If you [believer] had read the Quran, which I believe you wrote somewhere that you had read it three times, you would know that Allah states there is no difference between the Prophets and Messengers.

If you don’t mind my asking, and with the understanding in advance that I am not at all interested in perpetuating inter-religious controversies (though I do study the issues) and that I am not irreligious but, to coin a term, largely areligious (non-religious), with no particular doctrinal points of my own to try to prove, please explain how you reconcile your statement that “all messengers and prophets are the same,” with this:

“These Messengers: We favored some of them over others. God spoke directly to some of them and raised up some of them in rank. We gave Clear Signs to Jesus, son of Mary, and reinforced him with the Purest Spirit. (Qur'an, 2:253)”

Moreover, it has been a long time since I’ve read it, and I cannot immediately locate a copy, but isn’t it  said that, during Muhammad’s night journey to Jerusalem, he was given a place of (at least seeming) preeminence above Moses and the other prophets whom he met along the way?  The “ranks,” then, appear rather hierarchical and therefore at least at times unequal in nature.

Could you please clarify?  Thank you.

Serv 

Allah has raised some Messengers and Prophets above others, however His instructions are clear to us:

2:136 Say ye: "We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) Prophets from their Lord: We make no difference between one and another of them: And we bow to Allah (in Islam)." 

Why Allah has raised some above others we do not know, but we are clearly told to make no distinction between them. If I were to hazard a guess it would be because man had previously bestowed divinity upon the Prophet Jesus and we were not to make this same mistake again. 

Author	Message
Shasta'sAunt Female Islam Senior Member Joined: 29 March 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1930	Posted: 15 April 2008 at 2:07pm
	*Originally posted by Servetus* *Originally posted by Shasta’sAunt* Muslims believe that all of Allah's Messengers and Prophets are the same. If you [believer] had read the Quran, which I believe you wrote somewhere that you had read it three times, you would know that Allah states there is no difference between the Prophets and Messengers. If you don’t mind my asking, and with the understanding in advance that I am not at all interested in perpetuating inter-religious controversies (though I do study the issues) and that I am not irreligious but, to coin a term, largely areligious (non-religious), with no particular doctrinal points of my own to try to prove, please explain how you reconcile your statement that “all messengers and prophets are the same,” with this: “These Messengers: We favored some of them over others. God spoke directly to some of them and raised up some of them in rank. We gave Clear Signs to Jesus, son of Mary, and reinforced him with the Purest Spirit. (Qur'an, 2:253)” Moreover, it has been a long time since I’ve read it, and I cannot immediately locate a copy, but isn’t it said that, during Muhammad’s night journey to Jerusalem, he was given a place of (at least seeming) preeminence above Moses and the other prophets whom he met along the way? The “ranks,” then, appear rather hierarchical and therefore at least at times unequal in nature. Could you please clarify? Thank you. Serv Allah has raised some Messengers and Prophets above others, however His instructions are clear to us: 2:136 Say ye: "We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) Prophets from their Lord: We make no difference between one and another of them: And we bow to Allah (in Islam)." Why Allah has raised some above others we do not know, but we are clearly told to make no distinction between them. If I were to hazard a guess it would be because man had previously bestowed divinity upon the Prophet Jesus and we were not to make this same mistake again.
	“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.” Eleanor Roosevelt
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Servetus Male Christian Senior Member Joined: 04 April 2001 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 2097	Posted: 15 April 2008 at 7:04pm
	Well (succinctly) put. Thank you. I better understand the position. Serv
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believer Guest Group Joined: 08 January 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1397	Posted: 15 April 2008 at 7:58pm
	LOL!! minuteman - yes our ministers study the language of the Bible so they can translate it and understand it for themselves. You said - "You please consider our arguments about Jesus being a God because Jesus never spent one whole day telling any one that he was God. Why?" Jesus was sent to earth for a specific mission. If He had been recognized as GOD He would not have completed what He was meant to do.
	John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
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Shasta'sAunt Female Islam Senior Member Joined: 29 March 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1930	Posted: 16 April 2008 at 7:42am
	"Jesus was sent to earth for a specific mission. If He had been recognized as GOD He would not have completed what He was meant to do." So he was incognito? Are you seriously saying that God deigned to come to earth as a mere man and sacrifice Himself as salvation for all of mankind, but He had to keep it secret?
	“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.” Eleanor Roosevelt
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minuteman Senior Member Joined: 25 March 2007 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1642	Posted: 16 April 2008 at 1:41pm
	*Originally posted by Servetus* Well (succinctly) put. Thank you. I better understand the position. Serv After reading your post, I was going to reply in a certain way. I prepared myself. But then read the post of Shasta'sAunt and found that my reply was exactly same ( on the same lines) as Shasta'sAunt had replied. I repeat that here now: (And your question was really good. It could puzzle any one) Allah has given preference to some messengers over the other messengers, as mentioned in the verse provided. It is definite that Allah had preferred some messengers over others. But Allah has forbidden us to differentiate between the messengers, such that we believe in some of them and not to believe in some others, or to lower the status of any one messenger of Allah. It is forbidden to us. We believe that they were all truthful and same category, that is mortal human beings. The rest is the same as Shasta'sAunt has pointed out. There was no need for me to write after you had understood and appreciated the reply from Shasta'sAunt. Edited by minuteman - 16 April 2008 at 1:44pm
	If any one is bad some one must suffer
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believer Guest Group Joined: 08 January 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1397	Posted: 16 April 2008 at 3:23pm
	Shasta and minute, this has always been my thought - if He showed Himself as GOD who in their right mind would crucify Him? Thank you for pointing out that Jesus would never commit Kitman or Taqiyya. Jesus was recognized as GOD by His Disciples. The other Jews believed He was calling Himself GOD. John 10 25Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30I and the Father are one." 31Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, 32but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?" 33"We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God." Edited by believer - 16 April 2008 at 3:25pm
	John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
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honeto Senior Member Joined: 20 March 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2340	Posted: 16 April 2008 at 3:50pm
	*Originally posted by believer* honeto - Our ministers go through years of college learning all the languages of the Old and New Testament. They translate the Bible on their own- interesting that all come up with the basic idea that God gave us a savior in Jesus Christ. The Apostles believed Jesus was GOD. Through the Apostles GOD has corrected His WORD. Your Quran claims that Allah protects His Word, correct? beleiver, I am sure they go thorugh a lot of learning a lot of training on how to......... but that does not answer my quote. Did you read the quotes I quoted from the Jewish Bible and the same verse from the Christian version of the Bible. I want your answer to that. As far as your orginal question, I think its already answered. Hasan
	39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Shasta'sAunt Female Islam Senior Member Joined: 29 March 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1930	Posted: 16 April 2008 at 4:20pm
	*Originally posted by believer* Shasta and minute, this has always been my thought - if He showed Himself as GOD who in their right mind would crucify Him? Thank you for pointing out that Jesus would never commit Kitman or Taqiyya. Jesus was recognized as GOD by His Disciples. The other Jews believed He was calling Himself GOD. John 10 25Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30I and the Father are one." 31Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, 32but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?" 33"We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God." But Jesus did not say he was God, nor did he claim to be God. As I pointed out in an earlier thread, the Jews accused him of blasphemy and instead of admitting he was God, he deferred to God, the Father. You have posted verses in which this is exactly what he does. The Jews were saying he was claiming to be God, Jesus did not claim thus. The Jews were also looking for a reason to get rid of Jesus because he was causing trouble, and this was one of the excuses they were using. If they were already saying that he claimed to be God, if he had in fact admitted he was God come to earth to sacrifice himself for man's salvation, how could that have changed his mission in anyway. They would not have believed him and he actually would have been crucified much sooner. Instead he side-stepped the direct answer, which you claim was "Yes. I am God" and said the he in fact had no power, it was all from God. Nor at this time did he explain that he was part of the Triune of God, equal partner to, but said that he did the Father's bidding. I believe I also asked in an earlier thread that if Jesus were asked right out, to his face if he was God, and he did not answer yes, isn't that a lie. It was definitely deceptive.
	“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.” Eleanor Roosevelt
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