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Interfaith Dialogue
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Sign*Reader
 
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Quote Sign*Reader Replybullet Posted: 06 April 2008 at 12:04am
Originally posted by jusaskin

Sign Reader,

When you open IC’s front page look on the right column at about middle you find-Quran Search

Now I see! I had not known what you meant by "IC". That is a very good source of information, and really well done. Fun to see how much Arabic one can match up with the English.

I am glad you are having fun but: Are you familiar with Arabic?

I hope you aren't more confused! 

You did a very good job of trying to inform me, but making sense of the Quran, for a Christian, is confusing work .... at least for this Christian. It's hard to read that my scripture is full of lies, and that Muslims are forbidden to be friends with me. Still I will try to see where we have common ground, and make the best of that.

Joe: Let me give you a fundamental rule of thumb in Islam only the part that is a revealed from God(Allah) to an authentic messenger is a true word of God and it neither mine nor yours per se. It God's word the Quran or Gospel need to pass that muster! The saying of the Prophet Muhammad(was) / Jesus(s) are not God's words when some one tries to mix things up need to reject lot!The Chritians have different way to Judge the God's word and probably the Jews do the same thing!

So far your being friends with Muslims is concerned you need to read the Bio of the Prophet to see why those verses were revealed and the circumstances for them that is absolutely a must! I have been lot closer in friendship in  business with Christians than Muslims. It all depends upon the person to person.

Historically speaking though the Muslim nations have been burnt by the Christian nations, look at the colonialism of last couple of centuries and the neo colonial control of the lands now


Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.
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Quote jusaskin Replybullet Posted: 06 April 2008 at 9:16am

Believer,

Thanks! That's a nice selection, and I have run into some of them before .... which is where some of the frustration and confusion originates. I would imagine that Muslims will go to other verses and "help" us "understand" your selection. And I can see how and why they would do that. From what little I know of Islam, a devout follower will be convinced that the Quran is the ultimate authority over all other scriptures. Where the Quran conflicts with another, the Quran trumps the other. For a devout Christian it's the other way around, the Bible over the Quran. And that seems to be the basic problem. I wonder if it's even possible for the two to reconcile?

There is something appealing in these words of 5:48, "... for every one of you did We appoint a law and a way, and if Allah had pleased He would have made you (all) a single people, but that He might try you in what He gave you, therefore strive with one another to hasten to virtuous deeds; to Allah is your return, of all (of you), so He will let you know that in which you differed;"

I like the notion that we would "strive with one another to hasten to virtuous deeds", if it could be interpreted as both working toward loving God and our fellow man in a spirit of cooperation rather than competition. Even there, the Christian understands that good deeds are not meritorious toward the reward of eternity with God, in that Jesus has already gained that for us; but that should not prevent us from working side by side with the believers of Islam who hold a different view.

In the effort to understand Islam, I'm often coming back to some things Paul said to Timothy in his second letter: "... strive not about words to no profit ... shun profane and vain babblings for they will increase unto more ungodliness ... foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes", but also considering, "... the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, in meekness instructing those that oppose themselves ... ". I wonder sometimes if this is just "vain babblings" or do my conversations profit me and the other person? I hope it's the latter.

 

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Quote jusaskin Replybullet Posted: 06 April 2008 at 11:19am

Sign Reader,

"only the part that is a revealed from God(Allah) to an authentic messenger is a true word of God"

We have the situation in the Bible where nothing can be verified as "authentic" if we must produce a document that claims to be written by Jesus, and it seems that would be the only authenticity that would satisfy a Muslim. Christians are convinced that our Scripture is accurate enough to convey the intended message of God through Jesus, and I am puzzled by how a Muslim can differentiate between what is "authentic" in our Scripture, and what is not.

Perhaps we could take a specific incident and you can help me see how that is done. Are you aware of a much loved accounting of Jesus teaching the people called "the sermon on the mount"? One version is found in the gospel of Matthew, chapters 5, 6, and 7. I would like to know what of that teaching, if anything, can be determined by a Muslim to be a revelation from God. And while that might sound like a challenge, I only propose it as a tool for understanding.

"So far your being friends with Muslims is concerned you need to read the Bio of the Prophet to see why those verses were revealed and the circumstances for them"

This also confuses me! I was under the impression that whatever was found in the Quran was the exact words of God, and that the sole purpose of the Quran was to be a teaching for all mankind. Your statement sounds like one must read God's words as being conditional, and that other sources are needed to explain His intention. If I need to go elsewhere for clarification, wouldn't I be relying on a mere mortal to speculate on what God meant?

I'm not trying to be quarrelsome, but that really threw me! I was just getting ready to think I understood how to read the Quran, but now I'm once again unsure. Can I take a verse like ... oh, let's say, 6:121 .... "Eat not of (meats) on which God's name hath not been pronounced: That would be impiety." Would that injunction need further clarification as to whether it applies to everyone? Is it meant just for people of that day, or today also? Or does it mean just what it says, without further qualifications?

"I have been lot closer in friendship in  business with Christians than Muslims."

I had to smile at that one! I have the same sort of problem with Christians, especially when it comes to business transactions. I suppose we expect more (or maybe a better deal) of one who proclaims the same faith as yourself. It also proves that just because one professes a belief, it does not automatically mean that it is a sincere belief.

"Historically speaking though the Muslim nations have been burnt by the Christian nations, look at the colonialism of last couple of centuries and the neo colonial control of the lands now"

Separating religion from politics in world affairs is not my strong suite ..... if I even have one. When I look at Ireland, for instance, and try to figure out if Catholics and Protestants are religious or political antagonists, it seems a blur. Were the Crusades religious or political? Both, I imagine. Do we attribute religious motives to political motives at times? I'm pretty sure we do. Would it be better if we worked together to build a better world community, than to insist our way is the only way? I think so.

Which reminds me ..... thanks for your willingness to try to help me understand Islam. That's why I'm here.

joe
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Quote believer Replybullet Posted: 06 April 2008 at 11:57am

I like that verse too.  There is a chance though that if this is an earlier verse, a better one has been put in place of it. 

Good Questions.  I want to know - How do you know if a messanger is authentic? 

I have been asked repeatedly but Muslims -where is the Gospel that Jesus wrote?  The Quran wasn't written by Mohammad.

Allah ->Gabriel -> Mohammad -> Scribes

YHWH->Apostles(who happened to be the sribes)

 



Edited by believer
John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
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Quote Andalus Replybullet Posted: 06 April 2008 at 12:15pm
Originally posted by believer

I know what you mean jusaskin.

Here are some verses regarding the truth in our Holy Scriptures- 

Remember though that unlike the Bible the different translations can really change the whole meaning of the verses.  words in ( ) translators own words

003.003

YUSUFALI: It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong).

PICKTHAL: He hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture with truth, confirming that which was (revealed) before it, even as He revealed the Torah and the Gospel.

SHAKIR: He has revealed to you the Book with truth, verifying that which is before it, and He revealed the Tavrat and the Injeel aforetime, a guidance for the people, and He sent the Furqan.

005.047


YUSUFALI: Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.
PICKTHAL: Let the People of the Gospel judge by that which Allah hath revealed therein. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are evil-livers.
SHAKIR: And the followers of the Injeel should have judged by what Allah revealed in it; and whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the transgressors.

005.048


YUSUFALI: To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;
PICKTHAL: And unto thee have We revealed the Scripture with the truth, confirming whatever Scripture was before it, and a watcher over it. So judge between them by that which Allah hath revealed, and follow not their desires away from the truth which hath come unto thee. For each We have appointed a divine law and a traced-out way. Had Allah willed He could have made you one community. But that He may try you by that which He hath given you (He hath made you as ye are). So vie one with another in good works. Unto Allah ye will all return, and He will then inform you of that wherein ye differ.
SHAKIR: And We have revealed to you the Book with the truth, verifying what is before it of the Book and a guardian over it, therefore judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and do not follow their low desires (to turn away) from the truth that has come to you; for every one of you did We appoint a law and a way, and if Allah had pleased He would have made you (all) a single people, but that He might try you in what He gave you, therefore strive with one another to hasten to virtuous deeds; to Allah is your return, of all (of you), so He will let you know that in which you differed;

005.068


YUSUFALI: Say: "O People of the Book! ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord." It is the revelation that cometh to thee from thy Lord, that increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. But sorrow thou not over (these) people without Faith.
PICKTHAL: Say O People of the Scripture! Ye have naught (of guidance) till ye observe the Torah and the Gospel and that which was revealed unto you from your Lord. That which is revealed unto thee (Muhammad) from thy Lord is certain to increase the contumacy and disbelief of many of them. But grieve not for the disbelieving folk.
SHAKIR: Say: O followers of the Book! you follow no good till you keep up the Taurat and the Injeel and that which is revealed to you from your Lord; and surely that which has been revealed to you from your Lord shall make many of them increase in inordinacy and unbelief; grieve not therefore for the unbelieving people.

002.087

YUSUFALI: We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of messengers; We gave Jesus the son of Mary Clear (Signs) and strengthened him with the holy spirit. Is it that whenever there comes to you a messenger with what ye yourselves desire not, ye are puffed up with pride?- Some ye called impostors, and others ye slay!
PICKTHAL: And verily We gave unto Moses the Scripture and We caused a train of messengers to follow after him, and We gave unto Jesus, son of Mary, clear proofs (of Allah's sovereignty), and We supported him with the Holy spirit. Is it ever so, that, when there cometh unto you a messenger (from Allah) with that which ye yourselves desire not, ye grow arrogant, and some ye disbelieve and some ye slay?
SHAKIR: And most certainly We gave Musa the Book and We sent messengers after him one after another; and We gave Isa, the son of Marium, clear arguments and strengthened him with the holy spirit, What! whenever then a messenger came to you with that which your souls did not desire, you were insolent so you called some liars and some you slew.


- Sura 3:48 - And He (Isa/Jesus) will teach him the Book and the wisdom and the Tavrat (Torah) and the Injeel (Christian Gospel).

- Sura 3:50 - And a verifier of that which is before me of the Taurat (Torah) and that I may allow you part of that which has been forbidden t you, and I have come to you with a sign from your Lord therefore be careful of (your duty to) Allah and obey me.

003.084
YUSUFALI: Say: "We believe in Allah, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets, from their Lord: We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to Allah do we bow our will (in Islam)."
PICKTHAL: Say (O Muhammad): We believe in Allah and that which is revealed unto us and that which was revealed unto Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes, and that which was vouchsafed unto Moses and Jesus and the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and unto Him we have surrendered.
SHAKIR: Say: We believe in Allah and what has been revealed to us, and what was revealed to Ibrahim and Ismail and Ishaq and Yaqoub and the tribes, and what was given to Musa and Isa and to the prophets from their Lord; we do not make any distinction between any of them, and to Him do we submit.

005.044
YUSUFALI: It was We who revealed the law (to Moses): therein was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the prophets who bowed (as in Islam) to Allah's will, by the rabbis and the doctors of law: for to them was entrusted the protection of Allah's book, and they were witnesses thereto: therefore fear not men, but fear me, and sell not my signs for a miserable price. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) Unbelievers.
PICKTHAL: Lo! We did reveal the Torah, wherein is guidance and a light, by which the prophets who surrendered (unto Allah) judged the Jews, and the rabbis and the priests (judged) by such of Allah's Scripture as they were bidden to observe, and thereunto were they witnesses. So fear not mankind, but fear Me. And My revelations for a little gain. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are disbelievers.
SHAKIR: Surely We revealed the Taurat in which was guidance and light; with it the prophets who submitted themselves (to Allah) judged (matters) for those who were Jews, and the masters of Divine knowledge and the doctors, because they were required to guard (part) of the Book of Allah, and they were witnesses thereof; therefore fear not the people and fear Me, and do not take a small price for My communications; and whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the unbelievers
.


005.046
YUSUFALI: And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.
PICKTHAL: And We caused Jesus, son of Mary, to follow in their footsteps, confirming that which was (revealed) before him in the Torah, and We bestowed on him the Gospel wherein is guidance and a light, confirming that which was (revealed) before it in the Torah - a guidance and an admonition unto those who ward off (evil).
SHAKIR: And We sent after them in their footsteps Isa, son of Marium, verifying what was before him of the Taurat and We gave him the Injeel in which was guidance and light, and verifying what was before it of Taurat and a guidance and an admonition for those who guard (against evil).

005.047
YUSUFALI: Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.
PICKTHAL: Let the People of the Gospel judge by that which Allah hath revealed therein. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are evil-livers.
SHAKIR: And the followers of the Injeel should have judged by what Allah revealed in it; and whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the transgressors.


005.068
YUSUFALI: Say: "O People of the Book! ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord." It is the revelation that cometh to thee from thy Lord, that increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. But sorrow thou not over (these) people without Faith.
PICKTHAL: Say O People of the Scripture! Ye have naught (of guidance) till ye observe the Torah and the Gospel and that which was revealed unto you from your Lord. That which is revealed unto thee (Muhammad) from thy Lord is certain to increase the contumacy and disbelief of many of them. But grieve not for the disbelieving folk.
SHAKIR: Say: O followers of the Book! you follow no good till you keep up the Taurat and the Injeel and that which is revealed to you from your Lord; and surely that which has been revealed to you from your Lord shall make many of them increase in inordinacy and unbelief; grieve not therefore for the unbelieving people.

-

006.154
YUSUFALI: Moreover, We gave Moses the Book, completing (Our favour) to those who would do right, and explaining all things in detail,- and a guide and a mercy, that they might believe in the meeting with their Lord.
PICKTHAL: Again, We gave the Scripture unto Moses, complete for him who would do good, an explanation of all things, a guidance and a mercy, that they might believe in the meeting with their Lord.
SHAKIR: Again, We gave the Book to Musa to complete (Our blessings) on him who would do good (to others), and making plain all things and a guidance and a mercy, so that they should believe in the meeting of their Lord.

006.155
YUSUFALI: And this is a Book which We have revealed as a blessing: so follow it and be righteous, that ye may receive mercy:
PICKTHAL: And this is a blessed Scripture which We have revealed. So follow it and ward off (evil), that ye may find mercy.
SHAKIR: And this is a Book We have revealed, blessed; therefore follow it and guard (against evil) that mercy may be shown to you.

006.156
YUSUFALI: Lest ye should say: "The Book was sent down to two Peoples before us, and for our part, we remained unacquainted with all that they learned by assiduous study:"
PICKTHAL: Lest ye should say: The Scripture was revealed only to two sects before us, and we in sooth were unaware of what they read;
SHAKIR: Lest you say that the Book was only revealed to two parties before us and We were truly unaware of what they read.

006.157
YUSUFALI: Or lest ye should say: "If the Book had only been sent down to us, we should have followed its guidance better than they." Now then hath come unto you a clear (sign) from your Lord,- and a guide and a mercy: then who could do more wrong than one who rejecteth Allah's signs, and turneth away therefrom? In good time shall We requite those who turn away from Our signs, with a dreadful penalty, for their turning away.
PICKTHAL: Or lest ye should say: If the Scripture had been revealed unto us, we surely had been better guided than are they. Now hath there come unto you a clear proof from your Lord, a guidance and mercy; and who doeth greater wrong than he who denieth the revelations of Allah, and turneth away from them? We award unto those who turn away from Our revelations an evil doom because of their aversion.
SHAKIR: Or lest you should say: If the Book had been revealed to us, we would certainly have been better guided than they, so indeed there has come to you clear proof from your Lord, and guidance and mercy. Who then is more unjust than he who rejects Allah's communications and turns away from them? We will reward those who turn away from Our communications with an evil chastisement because they turned away.


- Sura 29:46 "And dispute ye not with the People of the Book, but say, "We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; Our Allah and your Allah is one;

- Sura 32:23 - And certainly We gave the Book to Musa, so be not in doubt concerning the receiving of it, and We made it a guide for the children of Israel.

- Sura 43:63 - When Jesus came with Clear Signs, he said: "Now have I come to you with Wisdom, and in order to make clear to you some of the (points) on which ye dispute: therefore fear Allah and obey me.

046.012
YUSUFALI: And before this, was the Book of Moses as a guide and a mercy: And this Book confirms (it) in the Arabic tongue; to admonish the unjust, and as Glad Tidings to those who do right.
PICKTHAL: When before it there was the Scripture of Moses, an example and a mercy; and this is a confirming Scripture in the Arabic language, that it may warn those who do wrong and bring good tidings for the righteous.
SHAKIR: And before it the Book of Musa was a guide and a mercy: and this is a Book verifying (it) in the Arabic language that it may warn those who are unjust and as good news for the doers of good.

You are now "dumping", which is prohibited (see the thread at beginning of interfaith section). If you want to argue that a verse supports your view of your NT, then argue for that verse and show it to be as you say. "Dumping" is a game, which includes pasting a long line of verses with nothing more than an assertion labled on the paste. Please follow the rules.

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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 07 April 2008 at 5:49pm

Hi Joe,  you wrote: "Christians are convinced that our Scripture is accurate enough to convey the intended message of God through Jesus, and I am puzzled by how a Muslim can differentiate between what is "authentic" in our Scripture, and what is not."

Joe, the simple answer to your question is because we the Muslims, if are convinced of anything is the absolute Oness of God, we are truly monothiestic without any ifs or buts. We may deny anything else but we are very hard headed (very firm) when it comes to accepting anything other than absolute One God.

Chirstians may be conviced about the authenticity of their scripture as you said, I was too before I read it.  

There are some fundamantals upon which a belief is built, God and our salvation are the two most important ones for most of us. On both of those basic points Christians and the Bible failed to agree. Their stand on those two points does not convince me, and so many other people who were Christians before and after figuring out the facts by themselves, no longer accept its teaching and have become Muslims.

We the Muslim believe that God is One, He is not begotten, nor he begets. So if we see anyone or anything saying otherwise, we know its not the truth. We believe that our salvation comes through following the guidance we are given by God, and through obedience to Him. God loves those who obey Him, for them He has promised forgiveness and a reward. If any tell us otherwise it's not the truth. We belief each one of us works toward his/her own destiny. If any tell us otherewise it must not be the truth.

So based on that open eye knowledge upon which we build our belief, we are able to figure out the right from wrong, firmly.

Hasan

39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Quote believer Replybullet Posted: 07 April 2008 at 8:30pm

Why did Allah and Mohammad authenticate the Torah and Gospel? 

How was the Quran authenticated?

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Quote Andalus Replybullet Posted: 07 April 2008 at 10:10pm
Originally posted by believer

Why did Allah and Mohammad authenticate the Torah and Gospel? 

How was the Quran authenticated?

Please provide proof of what you say, so that we may know what context you are referring to. Asking loaded questions that have unargued assumptions buried in them is not a sign of honest dialogue.

 

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