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jusaskin
 
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Quote jusaskin Replybullet Topic: some questions
    Posted: 31 March 2008 at 12:08pm

A few questions please, since I have read and heard different opinions on the following:

1.Is it correct to say that each word in the Quran was told to Muhammad by the angel Gabriel, who received the words from God? And that Muhammad received these message at different times, and being illiterate, he passed them on to someone who could write?

2. Is the Quran compiled according to some particular order? If the order is not according to when it was received, has this order ever been determined .... in other words, is there an index according to when the verses were received?

3. How is the Quran supposed to be read as relating to the existing scriptures of the Jews and Christians? Does the Quran supersede, amend or in some other manner link itself to those writings? Where can this be found in the Quran?

4. A question I asked in another post but have not received an answer .... what is meant by "the Book" and "people of the Book", in the Quran?

Being unfamiliar with this forum's etiquette, is it preferable to post one question at a time, or is a multiple questions post acceptable?

joe
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Quote Sign*Reader Replybullet Posted: 31 March 2008 at 11:32pm
Originally posted by jusaskin

A few questions please, since I have read and heard different opinions on the following:

1.Is it correct to say that each word in the Quran was told to Muhammad by the angel Gabriel, who received the words from God? And that Muhammad received these message at different times, and being illiterate, he passed them on to someone who could write?

You understanding is correct!

2. Is the Quran compiled according to some particular order? If the order is not according to when it was received, has this order ever been determined .... in other words, is there an index according to when the verses were received?

It commences with a short chapter called Fatiha (Opening) or oft repeated The Lord's Prayer.

It was determined by the Prophet (saw) as to combine the common themed revealed sign passages(ayaas) under  common chapters. He would recite the revealed portion at every anniversary in the month of Ramadan along with the arch angel Gabriel and  He did twice before his death.

The order in the final Quraanic scheme  of it's recitation the longest to the shortest got settled in the lineup. The chapters in front contain most of the items jurisprudential and the items having to do with warnings for the disbelievers or describing the handiworks of the creator about life and resources provided in the maintenance of transitory life are set in later part of the readings.

If some one who is opting to be a Muslim Jurist  then he reads the Prophet(Saw) biography along with the revelatory time line which gives case by case causes of revelations. You can get yourself  a good copy of seerah(Prophet's biography) which can tell you how it worked!

3. How is the Quran supposed to be read as relating to the existing scriptures of the Jews and Christians?

The Quraan is totally independent reading.

Does the Quran supersede, amend or in some other manner link itself to those writings?

It does all of the things you mentioned!

Where can this be found in the Quran?

You could use Quraanic search of IC subject by subject basis to find where Allah (swt) did those corrections as He deemed appropriate! As a matter of fact those references helped me to rediscover Islam in the US that was lost in the British colonial times.

It is a long subject my friend!

4. A question I asked in another post but have not received an answer .... what is meant by "the Book" and "people of the Book", in the Quran?

Generally speaking  there are three Prophets(as) who were giving a set of defined revelations beside  Muhammad(saw) cuz they had a nation audience (Israelites) to apply those instructions to as required by Allah. It was a Allah's time based project to proclaim Allah's worship and economic justice in the known world.In this mission Torah was revealed to Musa (as), Zaboor to Dawud(as) and Ingeel to Esa(as). It so happened that none of these prophets could complete the assignments due to the unreasonable demeanor of this relentless race- instead they took the economic control of the world as we know it!

Generally who followed the fore mentioned books; were called People of the Book  and some times differentiated by being called Jews & Christians/ Nezranis!, The secularist out of these groups were classified as pagans!

Being unfamiliar with this forum's etiquette, is it preferable to post one question at a time, or is a multiple questions post acceptable?

It is the moderators' purview!

I guess for questions it shouldn't be a problem



Edited by Sign*Reader
Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.
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Quote jusaskin Replybullet Posted: 01 April 2008 at 1:07pm

SignReader,

Thanks very much for the good information!

Does the Quran supersede, amend or in some other manner link itself to those writings?

It does all of the things you mentioned!

I’m a bit confused here …. To supersede would mean that the other scriptures were to be replaced by the Quran. Or to put it another way, the Torah, Zaboor and Ingeel would no longer be valid for it’s readers, but would be replaced by the Quran. Is that really what you mean? And it may well be, as I have heard that expressed before. I just want to make sure that is what you are telling me here.

Where can this be found in the Quran?

You could use Quraanic search of IC subject by subject basis to find where Allah (swt) did those corrections as He deemed appropriate! As a matter of fact those references helped me to rediscover Islam in the US that was lost in the British colonial times.

Please forgive my ignorance again, but I’m not sure what you mean  by “Quraanic search of IC subject by subject”.

 It is a long subject my friend! Thanks for the warning 

joe
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Quote minuteman Replybullet Posted: 02 April 2008 at 7:08am

 

 About the Quran superceding or abrogating the bible, I will soon try to find out and I hope to send some reply. There is a mixed report about these matters. I will try to give some reply.

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Quote believer Replybullet Posted: 02 April 2008 at 6:40pm

[5:46]
And We caused Jesus, son of Mary, to follow in their footsteps, confirming that which was (revealed) before him in the Torah, and We bestowed on him the Gospel wherein is guidance and a light, confirming that which was (revealed) before it in the Torah - a guidance and an admonition unto those who ward off (evil).

[5:47]
Let the People of the Gospel judge by that which Allah hath revealed therein. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are evil-livers.

[5:48]
And unto thee have We revealed the Scripture with the truth, confirming whatever Scripture was before it, and a watcher over it. So judge between them by that which Allah hath revealed, and follow not their desires away from the truth which hath come unto thee. For each We have appointed a divine law and a traced-out way. Had Allah willed He could have made you one community. But that He may try you by that which He hath given you (He hath made you as ye are). So vie one with another in good works. Unto Allah ye will all return, and He will then inform you of that wherein ye differ.

 

John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
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Quote Sign*Reader Replybullet Posted: 03 April 2008 at 8:55pm

Originally posted by jusaskin

 
SignReader,

 

Thanks very much for the good information!

 

Does the Quran supersede, amend or in some other manner link itself to those writings?

 

It does all of the things you mentioned!

 

I’m a bit confused here …. To supersede would mean that the other scriptures were to be replaced by the Quran. Or to put it another way, the Torah, Zaboor and Ingeel would no longer be valid for it’s readers, but would be replaced by the Quran. Is that really what you mean? And it may well be, as I have heard that expressed before. I just want to make sure that is what you are telling me here.

 

Where can this be found in the Quran?

 

The message Allah to Moses had tremendous number of  dietary and other legal points cuz the Israelites had lived under slavery in Egypt for so long and they needed to be set on an right path with approved procedures after their escape from the Egyptians tormentors. Due their bad habits they were let to wander in the Sanai wilderness for couple of generations. When Jesus (as) got picked up by Allah(saw) Paul preached his version of Gospel he wrote himself and he did the reverse of what Musa(as) that most laws from Musa(as) or Dawood(as) were no longer applicable on his new followers/converts. So things he or other added or promulgated are superseded or set aside.

Following this when Allah permitted the Muslims food from the kitchens of people of Book, He categorically excluded the swine, blood and other foods (Read Chapter 5 Al Maida (The Table Spread)i.e., to observe Moses' dietary rules but not the way Jewish Rabbi had gotten the Kosher rules written down!


It is but natural for the people to stick to the religious practices and the weaning process happens to be quite tedious. Whoever amongst the People of the Book stayed on the monotheistic worship and strictly followed the rules, Allah gave them the pass for redemption in the hereafter even if they did not profess Kalima. It is what we call they got "grand fathered" as long as things stayed peaceful but events moved fast  so the grand fathering became tentative cuz the majority of the People of the Book and it's clergy did not want to follow the rules! They were OK with the secular rules but not the religious ones!

The writings of Paul also alluded to some racial overtones that didn't bode well for the Arabs and the European based Christianity's underpinnings!

If you look at the behavior of the preachers today, you can get some idea what I am talking about!

 
Read Quraan if like to see what I am saying in Chapter 6 to at least upto verse 67(Al-An'am (The Cattle)

6:67 For every message is a limit of time, and soon shall ye know it."

 and Chapter 13:38 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  Every age has had its revelation:

The miracle of Quraan was being the seal on further revelations cuz Muhammad (saw) completed his mission it's application in his life time and and then the companions carried on for the world that neither recipients of the Torah or Gospel  could achieve in their own times! 

 

Please forgive my ignorance again, but I’m not sure what you mean  by “Quraanic search of IC subject by subject”.

When you open IC’s front page look on the right column at about middle you find-Quran Search-click that, it will open Quran search page that gives options to search by word, topic, phonetic on the left column and by chapter & verse on the right column. It couldn’t get any easier than that! try it!

I hope you aren't more confused! 

 



Edited by Sign*Reader
Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.
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Quote jusaskin Replybullet Posted: 05 April 2008 at 12:46pm

Sign Reader,

When you open IC’s front page look on the right column at about middle you find-Quran Search

Now I see! I had not known what you meant by "IC". That is a very good source of information, and really well done. Fun to see how much Arabic one can match up with the English.

I hope you aren't more confused! 

You did a very good job of trying to inform me, but making sense of the Quran, for a Christian, is confusing work .... at least for this Christian. It's hard to read that my scripture is full of lies, and that Muslims are forbidden to be friends with me. Still I will try to see where we have common ground, and make the best of that.

joe
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Quote believer Replybullet Posted: 05 April 2008 at 6:49pm

I know what you mean jusaskin.

Here are some verses regarding the truth in our Holy Scriptures- 

Remember though that unlike the Bible the different translations can really change the whole meaning of the verses.  words in ( ) translators own words

003.003

YUSUFALI: It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong).

PICKTHAL: He hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture with truth, confirming that which was (revealed) before it, even as He revealed the Torah and the Gospel.

SHAKIR: He has revealed to you the Book with truth, verifying that which is before it, and He revealed the Tavrat and the Injeel aforetime, a guidance for the people, and He sent the Furqan.

005.047


YUSUFALI: Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.
PICKTHAL: Let the People of the Gospel judge by that which Allah hath revealed therein. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are evil-livers.
SHAKIR: And the followers of the Injeel should have judged by what Allah revealed in it; and whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the transgressors.

005.048


YUSUFALI: To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;
PICKTHAL: And unto thee have We revealed the Scripture with the truth, confirming whatever Scripture was before it, and a watcher over it. So judge between them by that which Allah hath revealed, and follow not their desires away from the truth which hath come unto thee. For each We have appointed a divine law and a traced-out way. Had Allah willed He could have made you one community. But that He may try you by that which He hath given you (He hath made you as ye are). So vie one with another in good works. Unto Allah ye will all return, and He will then inform you of that wherein ye differ.
SHAKIR: And We have revealed to you the Book with the truth, verifying what is before it of the Book and a guardian over it, therefore judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and do not follow their low desires (to turn away) from the truth that has come to you; for every one of you did We appoint a law and a way, and if Allah had pleased He would have made you (all) a single people, but that He might try you in what He gave you, therefore strive with one another to hasten to virtuous deeds; to Allah is your return, of all (of you), so He will let you know that in which you differed;

005.068


YUSUFALI: Say: "O People of the Book! ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord." It is the revelation that cometh to thee from thy Lord, that increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. But sorrow thou not over (these) people without Faith.
PICKTHAL: Say O People of the Scripture! Ye have naught (of guidance) till ye observe the Torah and the Gospel and that which was revealed unto you from your Lord. That which is revealed unto thee (Muhammad) from thy Lord is certain to increase the contumacy and disbelief of many of them. But grieve not for the disbelieving folk.
SHAKIR: Say: O followers of the Book! you follow no good till you keep up the Taurat and the Injeel and that which is revealed to you from your Lord; and surely that which has been revealed to you from your Lord shall make many of them increase in inordinacy and unbelief; grieve not therefore for the unbelieving people.

002.087

YUSUFALI: We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of messengers; We gave Jesus the son of Mary Clear (Signs) and strengthened him with the holy spirit. Is it that whenever there comes to you a messenger with what ye yourselves desire not, ye are puffed up with pride?- Some ye called impostors, and others ye slay!
PICKTHAL: And verily We gave unto Moses the Scripture and We caused a train of messengers to follow after him, and We gave unto Jesus, son of Mary, clear proofs (of Allah's sovereignty), and We supported him with the Holy spirit. Is it ever so, that, when there cometh unto you a messenger (from Allah) with that which ye yourselves desire not, ye grow arrogant, and some ye disbelieve and some ye slay?
SHAKIR: And most certainly We gave Musa the Book and We sent messengers after him one after another; and We gave Isa, the son of Marium, clear arguments and strengthened him with the holy spirit, What! whenever then a messenger came to you with that which your souls did not desire, you were insolent so you called some liars and some you slew.


- Sura 3:48 - And He (Isa/Jesus) will teach him the Book and the wisdom and the Tavrat (Torah) and the Injeel (Christian Gospel).

- Sura 3:50 - And a verifier of that which is before me of the Taurat (Torah) and that I may allow you part of that which has been forbidden t you, and I have come to you with a sign from your Lord therefore be careful of (your duty to) Allah and obey me.

003.084
YUSUFALI: Say: "We believe in Allah, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets, from their Lord: We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to Allah do we bow our will (in Islam)."
PICKTHAL: Say (O Muhammad): We believe in Allah and that which is revealed unto us and that which was revealed unto Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes, and that which was vouchsafed unto Moses and Jesus and the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and unto Him we have surrendered.
SHAKIR: Say: We believe in Allah and what has been revealed to us, and what was revealed to Ibrahim and Ismail and Ishaq and Yaqoub and the tribes, and what was given to Musa and Isa and to the prophets from their Lord; we do not make any distinction between any of them, and to Him do we submit.

005.044
YUSUFALI: It was We who revealed the law (to Moses): therein was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the prophets who bowed (as in Islam) to Allah's will, by the rabbis and the doctors of law: for to them was entrusted the protection of Allah's book, and they were witnesses thereto: therefore fear not men, but fear me, and sell not my signs for a miserable price. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) Unbelievers.
PICKTHAL: Lo! We did reveal the Torah, wherein is guidance and a light, by which the prophets who surrendered (unto Allah) judged the Jews, and the rabbis and the priests (judged) by such of Allah's Scripture as they were bidden to observe, and thereunto were they witnesses. So fear not mankind, but fear Me. And My revelations for a little gain. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are disbelievers.
SHAKIR: Surely We revealed the Taurat in which was guidance and light; with it the prophets who submitted themselves (to Allah) judged (matters) for those who were Jews, and the masters of Divine knowledge and the doctors, because they were required to guard (part) of the Book of Allah, and they were witnesses thereof; therefore fear not the people and fear Me, and do not take a small price for My communications; and whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the unbelievers
.


005.046
YUSUFALI: And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.
PICKTHAL: And We caused Jesus, son of Mary, to follow in their footsteps, confirming that which was (revealed) before him in the Torah, and We bestowed on him the Gospel wherein is guidance and a light, confirming that which was (revealed) before it in the Torah - a guidance and an admonition unto those who ward off (evil).
SHAKIR: And We sent after them in their footsteps Isa, son of Marium, verifying what was before him of the Taurat and We gave him the Injeel in which was guidance and light, and verifying what was before it of Taurat and a guidance and an admonition for those who guard (against evil).

005.047
YUSUFALI: Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.
PICKTHAL: Let the People of the Gospel judge by that which Allah hath revealed therein. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are evil-livers.
SHAKIR: And the followers of the Injeel should have judged by what Allah revealed in it; and whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the transgressors.


005.068
YUSUFALI: Say: "O People of the Book! ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord." It is the revelation that cometh to thee from thy Lord, that increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. But sorrow thou not over (these) people without Faith.
PICKTHAL: Say O People of the Scripture! Ye have naught (of guidance) till ye observe the Torah and the Gospel and that which was revealed unto you from your Lord. That which is revealed unto thee (Muhammad) from thy Lord is certain to increase the contumacy and disbelief of many of them. But grieve not for the disbelieving folk.
SHAKIR: Say: O followers of the Book! you follow no good till you keep up the Taurat and the Injeel and that which is revealed to you from your Lord; and surely that which has been revealed to you from your Lord shall make many of them increase in inordinacy and unbelief; grieve not therefore for the unbelieving people.

-

006.154
YUSUFALI: Moreover, We gave Moses the Book, completing (Our favour) to those who would do right, and explaining all things in detail,- and a guide and a mercy, that they might believe in the meeting with their Lord.
PICKTHAL: Again, We gave the Scripture unto Moses, complete for him who would do good, an explanation of all things, a guidance and a mercy, that they might believe in the meeting with their Lord.
SHAKIR: Again, We gave the Book to Musa to complete (Our blessings) on him who would do good (to others), and making plain all things and a guidance and a mercy, so that they should believe in the meeting of their Lord.

006.155
YUSUFALI: And this is a Book which We have revealed as a blessing: so follow it and be righteous, that ye may receive mercy:
PICKTHAL: And this is a blessed Scripture which We have revealed. So follow it and ward off (evil), that ye may find mercy.
SHAKIR: And this is a Book We have revealed, blessed; therefore follow it and guard (against evil) that mercy may be shown to you.

006.156
YUSUFALI: Lest ye should say: "The Book was sent down to two Peoples before us, and for our part, we remained unacquainted with all that they learned by assiduous study:"
PICKTHAL: Lest ye should say: The Scripture was revealed only to two sects before us, and we in sooth were unaware of what they read;
SHAKIR: Lest you say that the Book was only revealed to two parties before us and We were truly unaware of what they read.

006.157
YUSUFALI: Or lest ye should say: "If the Book had only been sent down to us, we should have followed its guidance better than they." Now then hath come unto you a clear (sign) from your Lord,- and a guide and a mercy: then who could do more wrong than one who rejecteth Allah's signs, and turneth away therefrom? In good time shall We requite those who turn away from Our signs, with a dreadful penalty, for their turning away.
PICKTHAL: Or lest ye should say: If the Scripture had been revealed unto us, we surely had been better guided than are they. Now hath there come unto you a clear proof from your Lord, a guidance and mercy; and who doeth greater wrong than he who denieth the revelations of Allah, and turneth away from them? We award unto those who turn away from Our revelations an evil doom because of their aversion.
SHAKIR: Or lest you should say: If the Book had been revealed to us, we would certainly have been better guided than they, so indeed there has come to you clear proof from your Lord, and guidance and mercy. Who then is more unjust than he who rejects Allah's communications and turns away from them? We will reward those who turn away from Our communications with an evil chastisement because they turned away.


- Sura 29:46 "And dispute ye not with the People of the Book, but say, "We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; Our Allah and your Allah is one;

- Sura 32:23 - And certainly We gave the Book to Musa, so be not in doubt concerning the receiving of it, and We made it a guide for the children of Israel.

- Sura 43:63 - When Jesus came with Clear Signs, he said: "Now have I come to you with Wisdom, and in order to make clear to you some of the (points) on which ye dispute: therefore fear Allah and obey me.

046.012
YUSUFALI: And before this, was the Book of Moses as a guide and a mercy: And this Book confirms (it) in the Arabic tongue; to admonish the unjust, and as Glad Tidings to those who do right.
PICKTHAL: When before it there was the Scripture of Moses, an example and a mercy; and this is a confirming Scripture in the Arabic language, that it may warn those who do wrong and bring good tidings for the righteous.
SHAKIR: And before it the Book of Musa was a guide and a mercy: and this is a Book verifying (it) in the Arabic language that it may warn those who are unjust and as good news for the doers of good.



Edited by believer
John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
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