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Interfaith Dialogue
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Message Icon Topic: Two types of unity? Post Reply Post New Topic
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Israfil
 
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Quote Israfil Replybullet Posted: 31 March 2008 at 5:47pm
Originally posted by believer

That is truly what it sounds like to my ears, Allah is one period, confined.  To me the attirbutes are simply emotions of Allah- loving, kind, etc. 

Are you saying there is more to the attributes then just emotions, personality?  Is it similar to when a person has split personalities?

I believe that GOD is ONE and the Father, Son and Holy Spirit can not be apart from the will of GOD, they work in unity.  If GOD does not will it, there is no action.

In my humble opinion there is no such thing as God having emotions. I believe ethics in the universe have a corresponding cause and effect (meaning what good I do is reciprocated back to me somehow in the universe). But of course this is not Islamic thinking. However I disagree with your trinitarian concept because Arius proved that you cannot prove trinitarian unison without distinguishing Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. In the "spirit" of politics I find the Trinity to be no more useful in philosophy of religion than the patriot act.

Are you saying there is more to the attributes then just emotions, personality?  Is it similar to when a person has split personalities?

God's attributes transcends all things physical and comprehensible. God's attributes are beyond what I can fathom. Even by me calling God's attributes, attributes I may be mnaking a human fallacy based upon the limitations of my mind. What I'm saying is that what is provided in Islamic philosophy/theology are the interpretations of Islamic metaphysics.  

 

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Quote believer Replybullet Posted: 01 April 2008 at 7:39am

honeto- no I have not forgotten.  That supports my belief.  all parts are egual to each other, but all parts united as GOD.  The whole is always greater then just a portion of the whole.

israfil- It sound as if you are able to understand the 3 manifestations of GOD.  If Mohamad had said that Allah was the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, then you would have been able to believe it.

Attributes are not emotions, but different personalities?  "God's attributes transcends all things physical and comprehensible" 

Are we closer in thought then we realize?

John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
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honeto
 
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 03 April 2008 at 3:22pm

Hi believer,

you wrote: "honeto- no I have not forgotten.  That supports my belief.  all parts are egual to each other"

How can it support your belief, and you all saying again that " all parts are equal to each other" while yuor bible shows it otherwise and I have quoted this before and you admitted that God is greater than Jesus. Let me quote it here again.

John 14:28
You have heard Me say to you, ‘I am going away and coming back to you.’ If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, ‘I am going to the Fatherfor My Father is greater than I.

I cannot understand how that can still support your idea that all parts are equal? certainly not according to this quote.

Well, we all are free to choose I guess.

Hasan

39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Quote believer Replybullet Posted: 03 April 2008 at 6:31pm

Yes, but you still do not understand. 

Equal components of one, but the Son was sent by the Father, and the Holy Spirit was sent by the Father and Son [some say just the Father]. 

Each manifestation has had a different role to play out in their interaction with man.   

The Father, Son and Holy Spirit do not work on their own but in unity.

 

 

 



Edited by believer
John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 06 April 2008 at 3:31pm
Originally posted by believer

Yes, but you still do not understand. 

Equal components of one, but the Son was sent by the Father, and the Holy Spirit was sent by the Father and Son [some say just the Father]. 

Each manifestation has had a different role to play out in their interaction with man.   

The Father, Son and Holy Spirit do not work on their own but in unity.

Believer its you not me who is not understanding. You admit that to whom Jesus refered as the Father is greater than him, yet you keep contradicting yousrself that they are "Equal components of one"??

Can you see what you are saying, if you are admiting that  "Father/God" is greater than Jesus, then on what ground do you claim to say that they are equal component???

Hasan

 

39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Quote believer Replybullet Posted: 06 April 2008 at 4:36pm

Hope these examples help.

equal components-

husband and wife in a marriage, both are people, both hpoefully have equal duties in the family, yet there has to be a head of the household.

There could be chaos if no one can have the deciding vote.

Have you ever been on a committee- number of separate members with equal votes, yet there is always a chair to conduct the meeting, keeping things flowing without it stalling on an issue.  The chair has the final say.

John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
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Quote Shasta'sAunt Replybullet Posted: 06 April 2008 at 4:53pm
Originally posted by believer

Yes, but you still do not understand. 

Equal components of one, but the Son was sent by the Father, and the Holy Spirit was sent by the Father and Son [some say just the Father]. 

Each manifestation has had a different role to play out in their interaction with man.   

The Father, Son and Holy Spirit do not work on their own but in unity.

 

 

 

So you are saying that God could not act without Jesus or the Holy Spirit?

 

“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt
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Israfil
 
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Quote Israfil Replybullet Posted: 06 April 2008 at 5:37pm
Originally posted by believer

Hope these examples help.

equal components-

husband and wife in a marriage, both are people, both hpoefully have equal duties in the family, yet there has to be a head of the household.

There could be chaos if no one can have the deciding vote.

Have you ever been on a committee- number of separate members with equal votes, yet there is always a chair to conduct the meeting, keeping things flowing without it stalling on an issue.  The chair has the final say.

Negative. This is a poor analogy to support your defense of unity. a husband and wife are NOT equal because of  pre-conditioned roles. One may have more duties than the other or may be more supportive economically than the other, these elements are not called equality. Support for one another may be called unity because things are done in unison and are not unbalanced in this respect. But this is a stark difference than calling these two things equal. the reason the Trinity fails in this analogy is because, as Arius pointed out so many years back one is subserviant to the other. The Trinitarian concept is nothing more than a hylomorphic compound of an Aristotilian idea.

For example:

The Father is the Son and the Holy Spirit

Yet

Is NOT the Son and Holy Spirit.

The reason the Father is NOT the Holy Spirit or Son is that there is a quality that distinguishes it from Son and Holy Spirit otherwise the Father wouldn't be called 'Father' but would be called something else or perhaps Holy Spirit or Son. The reason why we name thing sis to create distinctions or categories of things. The Trinity cannot be equal if there is a compound that distinguishes one from the other even if the Trinitarian concept is thought to act out in unision. Even if such is true things that act in Unison are not ONE. For instance sychronize swimming is done in unison to create a beautific and yet difficult pattern of swimming yet, there are particulars in this pattern. Each swimmer must correspond with the other but they are all different individually (when looked at) the only thing that makes them ONE so to speak is their ability to act in unison with each other, but this takes practice. However this is ahrdly a defense or discredit of Trinitarian concept. I'm merely stating how action if done in unison does not equal it to it being one being.



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