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Islamic INTRAfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Islamic INTRAfaith Dialogue
Message Icon Topic: Does everyone think they are a scholar?(Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post Reply Post New Topic
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Noah
 
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bullet Posted: 26 July 2005 at 4:57pm
For Quran, no one needs to go any where for its authenticity.


Thank you, this sentence really should be enough for anyone. However..

We should look at all scriptures and if they contain contradictions, does not make sense, they are not from God, as outlined in Quran.
The Quran is fur'qan, the criterion. Criterion for what? all things!

however, this is not true for Ahadith. Isn't it?


Look, the Quran is from God. Truth does not need to be verifyed or explained by ignorance.

In the same token, if Quran is law, then authentic sunnah are the explanation of the law but not the vice versa.


whoah, thats a major leap'o'faith right there. IF (assuming) the Quran is law. THEN (assuming) ..must be ... The Quran IS law, and it explains itself very, very well. This is why we are constantly reminded that it is easy to learn, that we should study it intesively, that it has ALL details, that it contains ALL examples. So if the Quran is not lying about these claims, wich I assume it isnt. then what the Quran states is truth, thus it IS easy to learn, and contain everything that i need to know for my personal salvasion, and the making of a society. its all in there.

Ofcourse its not visa versa. as i said. Truth needs not to be validated by lesser truths, lies, and outright ignorance.

However, then sunnah play another vital role and that is the history associated with it.


how did you reason your way to this? I still fail to see why i should lsiten to hadith at all, now that the Quran makes it perfectly clear (by repeating) that it is for everybody, and that it is the only law and thats its easy to learn. There is even a verse that goes like this (easy to learn, cant remember its number tho ;))

"What is wrong with your judgement? Do you have another book you read?(another book than this Quran?*) Do you find in it everything you want?"

Usually people of other faith play down Quran as a book of faith, it is the well documented ahadith with their complete chain of narration, that provides un-deniable authenticity to the Quran and hence its preservation.


God assure us that he will preserve it, and i have posted the verses (and numbered them wrong it seems) confirming this. I take Gods word for it, i dont need to trust imam bokhari, muslim or any other guy i dont know who are, whre, or how they acted. all i know is what they have told about themself, and people singing from the same sheet. and honestly...thats just not good enough. Not as divine proof of preservation.

Think a little bit more on this when you read about the process of preservation of Quran through the link provided below.


I disgree with the author on several points of whatever little i did read of it. I have little patience with argueing from  hadith. There is no doubt that it has historical importance, and tell us a lot about what life was like FOURTEEN HUNDRED years ago, and how they implemented the Quran. How they dressed, how they urinated, how its healthy to drink camel piss when youre ill, how you should take slaves in war time, and how its ok to force them to prostitution of you just pay them a piece of cloth. And im sure it worked out fine back then (allthough i do NOT belive the prophet to have done or said any of the profanites, i simply respect him too much, and have higher thoughts of Allahs slave). But when i read the Quran, and i read it over and over, i simply cannot find any scriptural basis for the above hadiths, whatsoever. Thus, as relegious guidence, they are too flimsy, faulty and plainly ridiculous at places.

And no chain of narrators can change that. Logic alone should tell yo theres something wrong. Bukhari alone colleted roughly 700.000 only 10% of those made it to his books, and we are still argueing what are genuine, and most schoolars have easily tossed 40% in the trash allready. So ...if a scripture (a book in example, like a collection of something, say....storys) contains errors, contradictions and makes no  sense, they are not from God (i refer to the Quranic criterion for accepting a scripture as relegious guidence) it really IS that simple.

It is therefore imperative for all of us to recognise the importance of both of them at their own level.

I completely agree
Quran = Gods word, Law, the critrion, the beacon of light, the sorter of historical and previous relegious errors, the mercy, the way etc.
Hadith = loosely collected telltales with some authentic historical value at places, perhaps narrated by the people who are claimed to have narrated them, who knows, really?.

One more thing that I may like to correct to someone who mentioned about writing down of Quran in the time of Hazrat Usman from oral traditon. This is not  true. The fact is that whole of the Quran, as it used to be revealed, was aptly written down by the specially appointed scribes of our beloved Prophet. At the same time, given the importance of sunnah, some people also started writting down the Ahadith along with the Quran, to which our Prohet strictly forbidden this practice for not confusing the two sources togather. Hence, kept a special care of writting down of the Quran. When the Quran was completely revealed, its proper order of sequence of verses relative to each other for compilation was also duly dictated by the Prophet. For complete and detailed information, kindly see

http://www.youngmuslims.ca/online_library/books/ulum_al_qura n/index.htm

Indeed Allah knows the best.


I have seen 4 and half billion different takes on how the Quran was assembled, written by scribes, written by mohammad (pbuh). To be perfectly  honest. i do not care a single bit if it fell of the moon and hit mohammad on the head. I have read it, i understand what it wants me to do, and i obey, no questions asked. Im not going to argue with God. (but i will take on the scholars, no prob, they arent infallible or God send. they are humans with the same capacity and senses as me)

May Allah show us all the way to truth, where ever or what ever it may be.

Peace
Noah



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Jenni
 
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bullet Posted: 26 July 2005 at 6:00pm
I agree with Noah, I mean come on lets use commen sence. And no one has explained to me my previous discprepencies about Adam and Eve. In the Quran the explenation is different for how eve was created than in the Hadith. No one has ever given me an answer for this!!!
You cant be a good muslim if you are not decent and have a cold heart. Be a decent and kind person and care for women and children and the elderly.
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AhmadJoyia
 
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bullet Posted: 26 July 2005 at 7:36pm

O my dear brother Noah, great respect for your ideas and comments about Quran, but one can't ignore the history of Islam, good or bad, both. This doesn't mean that you have to wear the monocle of hadith to read Quran or to understand its general meaning. However, there are still numerous topics that have been alluded in Quran and their full understanding (or you can say as how to implement) comes from authentic ahadith. Islam deals with complete system of human life, from its fromation of a society to its individual members. Hence, if Quran provides constitution for a society, then sunnah forms the guidelines to implement this constitution in the form of a law. And if Quran provides a law, then sunnah provides the guidelines as how to implement the law (I am using "if" as an anology for presenting the examples). In any case, its not the vice versa. Your respect for Quran is true at its own merit, however, authentic (I repeat authentic) sunnah must not be down graded as well from their own stature.

Now coming to historic value of Islamic manuscripts, have you ever realised how important these are? The website that I referred you, provides evidence of assurance (through human intellect) that the copy of Quran that we are holding now in our hands, is same ditto as was revealed on Prophet Mohammad. In the absence of which, how do you claim its preservation other than from Quran itself? Think for a while, hopefully, you will get the answer yourself. It is this promise of Allah, through which Quran has survived the tides of history, otherwise, for history there is no exception. 

May Allah give all of wisdom to use logic for all our matters. Amin.

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Jenni
 
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bullet Posted: 27 July 2005 at 6:48am
Hello!!!!!!!!!! Eve in the Quran and Eve in the Hadith as I previously asked? Anyone want to take a stab at it or you guys are going to ignore it. The story is different how Eve(ADAMS wife) was created in the Quran and in Hadiths it gives the christian biblical version!!
You cant be a good muslim if you are not decent and have a cold heart. Be a decent and kind person and care for women and children and the elderly.
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Noah
 
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bullet Posted: 27 July 2005 at 7:40am
jenni try and read this book online

Im sure it will answer you quetion

Peace
Noah
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ummziba
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bullet Posted: 27 July 2005 at 8:15am

Assalamu alaikum,

Just an interesting, though possibly relevent aside:

It is scientific fact that all human fetus' are female.  The mutant Y chromosome later starts a reaction that turns just under half of these into males.

It is females who grow and give birth to our young.

Why then would Allah make Eve from Adam, would this not be backwards?

Does the Qur'an not say that Allah made a female soul and it's mate from it?

Peace, ummziba.

Sticks and stones may break my bones, but your words...they break my soul ~
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Jenni
 
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bullet Posted: 27 July 2005 at 3:42pm
Ummziba, I allways like your contributions. Peace
You cant be a good muslim if you are not decent and have a cold heart. Be a decent and kind person and care for women and children and the elderly.
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AhmadJoyia
 
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bullet Posted: 27 July 2005 at 6:15pm

Originally posted by Noah

jenni try and read this book online

Im sure it will answer you quetion

Peace
Noah

Bro Noah, this book is lacking authenticity and doesn't represent a scholarly researched writting. Picking up Quranic verses from here and there to negate sunnah is not at all a wise approach. We all know it took Quran almost 23 years to reveal, without reading it in its proper historical context to falsify ahadith, is thus, a big falacy. Hence, it is the work of none other than people like Saint Apple Pie and company.

May Allah provide us true guidance in our endeavor for the right direction. Amin.

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