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Islamic INTRAfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Islamic INTRAfaith Dialogue
Message Icon Topic: Does everyone think they are a scholar?(Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post Reply Post New Topic
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Jenni
 
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bullet Posted: 25 July 2005 at 8:54pm
Noah, I agree with you. My husband and I approach Hadith with skeptisism since they are not protected by Allah. I think there is much corruption in them and wonder how people can take a hadith over the Quran. I think most of the Hadiths are of little value and many of them are strange and even perverted. I know many Muslims feel this way but will not say so in the open. The Quran is very Logical and Hadiths, well some of them just aren't. Peace
You cant be a good muslim if you are not decent and have a cold heart. Be a decent and kind person and care for women and children and the elderly.
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Mi4real
 
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bullet Posted: 26 July 2005 at 9:23am

As Salam Alukum

 

Its funny how some people feel this way by hadiths, you must realise that the hadiths came down the same medium, that is oral tradition backed by a chain of narrators, so if you are rejecting hadith why not reject the Qur`an?

Secondly hadiths were recorded Manuscripts of Abu Hurairaih's collection of ahadith exist in Samarkand, as do the earliest copies of the Quran. A lot of other Sahaba's hadith works are available in manuscripts. One only has to have the will to seek them out. If you reject hadith because you think they might have been invented, think the same for the Quran. How would you know that the Quran we have today is the same as the Quran of 1400 years ago?

One of the main problems is ordinarly layman like you and I open by Sahih Bukhari or other books of hadith and read it and formulate an opinion on it without understanding why this hadith was uttered, what were the circumstances? one has to remember these hadiths are orginally in Arabic you would get a better understanding if you read the Sharh (commentary on Bukhari's hadiths) from Ibn Hajar Asqalani's Fath Al-Bari.

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Jenni
 
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bullet Posted: 26 July 2005 at 10:50am
Mi4real, you can not gaurantee the Hadiths are protected. There is one for example that says Eve was created from adams rib(like in the bible) and in the Quran that is not what is said. Also in the hadith there are many that are degrading to women, while I do not find this in the quran. There is one that says women are defiecient in intelligence while this is proven not to be true scientifically without a doubt. Now in many countries girls are outscoring boys in many fields like law, medicine ect. So explain that to me. Some hadiths are illogical while the Quran is not!!
You cant be a good muslim if you are not decent and have a cold heart. Be a decent and kind person and care for women and children and the elderly.
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Mi4real
 
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bullet Posted: 26 July 2005 at 11:21am

but then how can you guarantee that the Qur`an is protected since the Holy Qur`an is tawatur and so are some hadiths, if you reject hadiths then you must also reject the Qur`an secondly it is the IJMA (Concious of the Ulema (Scholars) that those who are hadith rejecters are automatically declared kafir, I would sincerely advise you to study the Sciences of Ilm Al-Rijal and Ilm Al-Hadith before you formulate your own opinions withour doing your research correctly.

but the Quraan orders us to follow the prophet, for example:
soorah Aal Imraan ayah 32
soorah Aal Imraan ayah 132
soorat un nisaa ayah 59
soorat ul maaidah ayah 92
soorat ul anfaal ayah 1
soorat ul anfaal ayah 20
soorat ul anfaal ayah 46
soorat un Noor ayah 54

Allah Ta'alaa tells the Rasool Sallallaahu `alyhi wa sallam to "warn those who appose your order" that they will fall into tribulation or great punishment {soorat un noor ayah 63}

فليحذر الّذين يخالفون عن أمره أن تصيبهم فتنة أو يصيبهم عذاب أليم


Allah Ta'alaa orders the Rasool Sallallaahu `alyhi wa sallam to tell people "If you love Allah follow me Allah will love you" {soorah Aal `Imraan ayah 31}

قل إن كنتم تحبون الله فاتّبعوني يحببكم الله


Allah Ta'ala says in the Quraan that you will be guided with the guidance of the Sahaabah { Soorat ul Baqarah ayah 137}
and that those who follow the Muhajireen and Ansaar with Ihsaan will be in heaven { Soorat ut Tawbah ayah 100}

Allah Ta'ala says ask the people of Knowledge if you don't know {soorat un nahl ayah 43, soorat ul Anbiyaa ayah 7}

Allah Ta'ala says that those who follow other than the way of the believers will go to hell {soorat un nisaa ayah 115}

The meaning of the words hadith and sunnah


Hadith (pl. Ahadith) = tiding, talk, discourse, tale, story (the word comes from haddatha = to tell)
Sunnah (pl. Sunan) = institution, customary action, wont


The above explanation should be enough, but i dont think that'll be enough for you guys.

The word hadith in the quran:
4:42
4:78
4:140
6:68
7:185
12:6
12:21
12:101
12:11
18:6
20:9
23:44
31:6
33:53
34:19
39:23
45:6
51:24
52:34
53:69
56:81
66:3
68:44
77:50
79:15
85:17
88:1


To show that there is nothing wrong with this word. I'll take some verses from the quran wich contains the word "hadith":

85:17.. Hal ataka hadeethu aljunoodi

85:17 Hath there come unto thee the story of the hosts

88:1. Hal ataka hadeethu alghashiyati

88:1. Hath there come unto thee tidings of the Overwhelming ?

20:9. Wahal ataka hadeethu moosa
 
20:9. Hath there come unto thee the story of Moses ?
I would strongly advise you read The authority of the sunnah:

( http://ccminc.faithweb.com/iqra/articles/authsun/ )


Chapter 1: Sunnah: The Second Source of Islamic Law
http://ccminc.faithweb.com/iqra/art...hsun/chap1.html
Chapter 2: The Scope of the Prophetic Authority
http://ccminc.faithweb.com/iqra/art...hsun/chap2.html
Chapter 3: The Authenticity of the Sunnah: Its Historical Aspect
http://ccminc.faithweb.com/iqra/art...hsun/chap3.html

----------------

Part A - Introduction
Part B - The General Probativeness of the Sunna
Part C - Proofs for the Probativeness of the Sunna
Part D - Allah's Approval of the Companions' Conformity with the Sunna
Part E - Proofs from the Noble Qur'an For the Probativeness of the Sunna
Part F - Proofs from the Noble Qur'an For the Probativeness of the Sunna (cont.)
Part G - Recapitulation: So far posted material
Part H - Proofs from the Noble Sunna for the Probativeness of the Sunna
Part I - Proofs from the Noble Sunna (cont.)
Part J - Proofs from the Noble Sunna (cont.)
Part K - Proofs from the Noble Sunna (cont.)
Part L - Proofs from the Noble Sunna (end)
Part M - It is Unfeasible to Act Solely on the Basis of the Qur'an


Information about the submitter-sect...

SUBMITTERS INTERNATIONAL
http://212.67.202.62/%7Esecurity/ht...&id=34&Itemid= 2

http://www.islamicweb.com/beliefs/c...ubmit_trick.htm

http://www.islamicweb.com/beliefs/c...ubmit_refut.htm

http://www.islamic-paths.org/Home/E.../Refutation.htm

www.islamicweb.com/beliefs/cults/submit.htm

www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/notislam/#submitters

www.themodernreligion.com/anti_muslim_main.htm

A refutation to the 'Submitters'
http://www.islamicweb.com/beliefs/c...ubmit_refut.htm

Islam = Qur'an + Sunnah
http://www.islamicweb.com/beliefs/c...uran_sunnah.htm

Answering Hadith Rejectors
http://www.themodernreligion.com/mi...hrejectors.html
 
Lastly the hadiths which you find disturbing try reading the commentary on the hadiths, have you tried reading the Arabic original? or how about asking a Scholar to explain the hadith to you?
 
The hadith system for Ahl-As-Sunnah has been relied upon for 1500 years, it is only now deviants groups are spreading fitnah and confusing the ordinary layman.
 
May Allah guide those who wish to misguide the masses.
 
 
Ameen Rabil Ala`meen.
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Noah
 
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bullet Posted: 26 July 2005 at 12:01pm
peace

but then how can you guarantee that the Qur`an is protected


56:81 It is an honourable Quran.
56:82 In a protected record.

You are free to belive what you want to, but i will just take Gods word for it. Im sure he knows what he is talking about.

if you reject hadiths then you must also reject the Qur`an


this is reversed logic. I fully accept the Quran as the infallible word and guidence from God. I know, because this book is theonly thing in the world that makes me cry out of pure humility to sho is speaking through this mighty medium.
Hadith...well. gives me nothing but a headache, and from years of research into occultism, esoteric relegious philosphies i can spot paganism in any scripture a mile away.


Peace
Noah


Edited by Noah
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herjihad
 
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bullet Posted: 26 July 2005 at 12:09pm

Bismillah,

I agree with Noah and Jenni that the Qur'an is promised to be protected, and the hadeeth are not.  The Qur'an was memorized by a thousand people and recorded by mutual consensus in Othmaan's time because of a major battle in which many people who had memorized the Holy Qur'an were killed.  It was seen as expedient to have a consensual compilation among those who had it memorized.  This did not happen with hadith. 

Al-Hamdulillah (From a Married Muslimah) La Howla Wa La Quwata Illa BiLLah - There is no Effort or Power except with Allah's Will.
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Jenni
 
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bullet Posted: 26 July 2005 at 1:29pm
MI4real-I am not saying that I don't believe any Hadith are true, I am saying if it has a condratictory nature to the Koran, how can you accept it? Which is more holy to you the Quran or Hadiths. The Quran is the word of God, the Hadiths rely on the heresay of men, which are not that relaible. I don't care which scolar says what. I do not have to accept the Hadiths as 100% true to be a Muslim. This is not one of the five pillars. You did not explain the discrepancy of the Hadiths I previously mentioned. I am asking you for a real explenation. 
You cant be a good muslim if you are not decent and have a cold heart. Be a decent and kind person and care for women and children and the elderly.
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AhmadJoyia
 
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bullet Posted: 26 July 2005 at 4:14pm

My I chip in a little bit on this "off topic" gossip!

For Quran, no one needs to go any where for its authenticity. however, this is not true for Ahadith. Isn't it?

In the same token, if Quran is law, then authentic sunnah are the explanation of the law but not the vice versa. However, then sunnah play another vital role and that is the history associated with it. Usually people of other faith play down Quran as a book of faith, it is the well documented ahadith with their complete chain of narration, that provides un-deniable authenticity to the Quran and hence its preservation. Think a little bit more on this when you read about the process of preservation of Quran through the link provided below.

It is therefore imperative for all of us to recognise the importance of both of them at their own level.

One more thing that I may like to correct to someone who mentioned about writing down of Quran in the time of Hazrat Usman from oral traditon. This is not  true. The fact is that whole of the Quran, as it used to be revealed, was aptly written down by the specially appointed scribes of our beloved Prophet. At the same time, given the importance of sunnah, some people also started writting down the Ahadith along with the Quran, to which our Prohet strictly forbidden this practice for not confusing the two sources togather. Hence, kept a special care of writting down of the Quran. When the Quran was completely revealed, its proper order of sequence of verses relative to each other for compilation was also duly dictated by the Prophet. For complete and detailed information, kindly see

http://www.youngmuslims.ca/online_library/books/ulum_al_qura n/index.htm

Indeed Allah knows the best.

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