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Islamic INTRAfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Islamic INTRAfaith Dialogue
Message Icon Topic: Does everyone think they are a scholar?(Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post Reply Post New Topic
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rami
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bullet Posted: 14 June 2005 at 3:51pm
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

assalamu alaikum

You seem to be upset over nothing, is your mother destined for the highest level of jannah "from what you described no" that is a conditional statment, conditional to your description of her.


So Rami you can say she is not destined for the Highest level of paradise, Why????


Insha Allah you will see what i am talking about from the following.

Reqarding those who are closest to Allah Sayyidina `Ali, as related by Ibn al-Jawzi in the chapter devoted to him in Sifat al-safwa:

They are the fewest in number, but the greatest in rank before Allah. Through them Allah preserves His proofs until they bequeath it to those like them (before passing on) and plant it firmly in their hearts. By them knowledge has taken by assault the reality of things, so that they found easy what those given to comfort found hard, and found intimacy in what the ignorant found desolate. They accompanied the world with bodies whose spirits were attached to the highest regard (al-mahall al-a`la). Ah, ah! how one yearns to see them!


in Surah Waaqiah Allah classifies people into three categories:

The people of the left-hand (Ashaab al-Mash-amah).

the people of the right-hand (Ashaab al-Maymanah).

Those who are near to Allah (Muqarraboon); alternatively referred to as the "Foremost".

The first group are those who have rejected faith. The second group are the righteous ones who are consistent in the fulfilment of their duties towards Allah. They are described as "a multitude of those of old and a multitude of those of later times (Waaqiah :39-40). And finally their are the Muqarraboon. They are a special group of believers who have attained the highest rank in spiritual development. They are often described as the elect of the elect (Khawaas ul-Khaswaas) whose intensity of faith (iman) has bestowed upon them the special privilege of enjoying nearness to Allah.

They are described in this Surah as being "a multitude of those of old and a few of later times" (Waaqiah : 13-14).

This idea of nearness to Allah is similarly expressed in a Sacred Tradition;

"My servant continually seeks to draw near to Me through supererogatory acts until I love him. And when I love him I become the ears with which he hears, the eyes with which he sees, the hand with which he grasps, and the feet with which he walks" (Bukhari).

Supererogatory mean acts of worship which are not obligatory to do.

The highest level of jannah is the one reseved for the prophets and the awliyah (saints) from each community as well as the martyrs and righteous.

Whoso obey Allah and the Messenger, they are with those unto whom Allas has shown favor, of the Prophets and the saints and the martyrs and the righteous. The best of company are they! (4:69)

some basic beliefs concernig the awliyah (loosly translated as muslim saint)

1. A Wali is a pious Muslim, who due to his knowledge and closeness to Allah Ta'ala, has been given a specific position.

2. Usually this grade is given to a Wali due to his strict followance the Shari'ah and also his devotion and his worship.

3. Wilaayat is, however, sometimes given to a person from birth and, therefore, without devotion and effort.

4. From the Awliyah-e-Ummat-e-Muhammadi, the most superior Awliyah are the four Khulafa, namely Hazrat Abu Bakr, Hazrat Umar, Hazrat Uthman and Hazrat Ali (radi Allahu anhum) and then all the Sahaba-e-Kiraam. All the Sahaba are also Awliyah. The source of the blessing for the Awliyah after these is Hazrat Ali (radi Allahu anhu). In other words, they are all blessed with Wilayah through the blessing of Hazrat Ali (radi Allahu anhu).

5. From the Awliyah of all the Ummah(creation), the greatest Awliyah are from the Ummah of Rasoolullah (sallal laahu alaihi wasallam).

6. There have been Awliya in every era and there will always be Awliya in every era, however, their recognition may be difficult.

Allahu alam sister according to number three your mother maybe a waliyah i cant say, but the point is ordinary muslims are the people of the right hand not the formost with allah.

By the way since I dont claim to be knowledgable isn't there a verse in the Quran or a Hadith I'm not sure that says most people in heaven will have been poor


I dont know but there is a hadith which says somethin similar. Being poor it self is not a condition of entering heaven or why people enter it. Simply becouse you are poor certainly doesn not mean you will be granted the Highest level of Jannah sister, people enter heaven they each take there rank in what ever level of jannah Allah has granted them.

So you think that if you have more knowledge you are better than them and destined to a higher level in paradise than they are? Doesn't it say in the Quran you are judged by your good and bad deeds?


No i never said that, i said those who have knowledge know the path to Allah better than those who dont, Allah himself says it in the Quran
"Say: 'Are those who know equal to those who know not?' It is only men of understanding who will remember." [39:9]

we dont use one verse in the Quran to contradict another verse. Our deeds are judged according to our intentions and what is in our hearts, We are talking about those in the highest level not those who will enter heaven this group is much fewer in number. Would you say the majority of people are on equal terms with the companions of rasul allah becoue we are talking about those who are.

So If I have 20 hours a week to spare between my Husband,and children and caring for myself and I spend all of it on scholarly reading or I spend 3 hours reading and 17 voluntering my time and helping the elderly or working with children, which in your intelectual eyes is more important???


If you do not act upon what you read your knowledge is useless, and you only read so you know what you should do to get closer to Allah. Reading it self or being a scholar is not the Key to Jannah,  among the first group of people placed in hell on the day of judgment is a scholar who used to tell people what to do and not do it himself! this is called hypocracy.


Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
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Jenni
 
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bullet Posted: 15 June 2005 at 9:04am
While you give alot of info to try to back up your claim I still believe that simple people without alot knowledge can be closest to Allah Pak. It is all in thier intention and deeds. I am tired of the complexity that people get into and debate over Islamic Issues. No one really agrees and it all reminds me of being a christian and all the different churches who teach differently. But what is clear is said in the Quran, paying Zakat, Praying, Fasting, how to be a decent person and treat your neighbor. Those are the things the majority of Muslims in the world need to read over and over until the get it. By the way there are two schools of thought in Christianity, one believes that you get to heaven by your good works in life, what you do and how you help people within the boudries of being a christian. The other believes you get to heaven by how strongly you believe and how pure your faith is and how hard you pray and surrender yourself to christ. My question is in Islam what is more important, your good deeds and works or your knowledge and depth of faith? I believe some like me may not allways be 100% sure of ourselves in this world and our faith but we push through and do the best we can. We try to be good and do good deeds and pray and fast and pay Zakat. However we dont spend years of our life contemplatint Islam and how it applies to us and the universe. We are practical and more works based. Others like to a Study, debate, spend extra time praying, attend all the lectures they can and even write articles and books. I think both types of people are needed in any faith and one Is NO MORE important that the other in the Eyes of Allah Pak. If you had a city full of scholars, they would all die of starvation. Who would grow the food? Milk the cows, run the schools, care for the sick, teach the children? I mean come on if you want to spend your life studying you can but it is not a requirement of being a Muslim. And lastly its great that alot of men have the time and resources to engage in scholarly activities but I believe most women are deprived of those opportunities. Either because of culture of their native homeland or becuase thier husbands feel it is more a priority for them to go to lectures and study and leave thier wives home with the kids to do the housework. So who's fault is it the women don't become scholars and just learn the basics because they are struggling to care for thier children and extended family. Let me use myself as an example, I have 2 kids and my husband works between 60 and 70 hours a week. I go to college (not for fun so I will be able to work in a few years) 2 nights a week and have to study. We have no family here and my youngest is 2 years old. The point being I rarely get to just read for intelectual gain and go ot the mosque and go to lectures. This is my life and I like many are just struggling to the best I can. Most women are doing the same, some with little help from thier Husbands who take plenty of time for themselves. (Mashalla my husband is very helpful).
You cant be a good muslim if you are not decent and have a cold heart. Be a decent and kind person and care for women and children and the elderly.
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Ali Zaki
 
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bullet Posted: 15 June 2005 at 9:35am

Salam to sister Jenni,

I apologize for my short reply, however, I am also a little short on time (at the moment).

I like many of your points, and agree with most of what you say. I am also a revert to Islam (former Christian (Lutheren)). I'm sorry I don't have time to look up the verse (to give the exact reference), however, the Quran tells us that (paraphrasing) " To Allah ascends the good words, and the good deeds raise them up." In other words, faith, prayer, contemplation, learning, good deeds are ALL neccesary to progress spiritually. If you leave any of them, you will find that you will either stagnate (spritually), or fall backward.

Those who discuss Islam do so to their level of understanding. If you find the issues discussed here confusing, my advice is to ignore them for now. The basics (foundation) of Islam (i.e., the pillars), The Holy Quran and MOST of the Sunnah of the prophet is clear and agreed upon by all Muslims. The issues we are discussing here relate primarily to examination of (especially early) Islamic History, Leadership of the Muslims, Tafsir of Quran, etc. These subjects may not interest you at your present stage, or you may not have time for them. Either way, it's O.K. , Allah (s.w.a) alone is your guide. Depend on his guidance (not the guidance of the fallible individuals in this forum, myself included).

Salam

 

"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

Imam Ali (a.s.)
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aisha
 
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bullet Posted: 15 June 2005 at 10:38am
salaam all,i think that knowledge is very important in islam,jenni maybe if you spent a little less time on the internet and picked up a book about islam you would have more knowledge(dont take this the wrong way)i myself have children to look after and a husband who works full time who i have to cook, clean and look after,i take arabic lessons and i attend meetings at the majid twice a week,stil i feel its not enough,also on your quote about poorer people in other countries in my husbands case he has lots of knowledge in islam .
aisha
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Jenni
 
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bullet Posted: 15 June 2005 at 12:56pm
to aisha I spend about 20 mins a day online while my kids are eating breakfast so that is not the problem, instead of reading a book about Islam I would rather Read THE BOOK, the Quran. And good for you attending meetings at the Mosque however that is optional for you, not required and neither is learning arabic. And by the way I have read many books like the Bible Quran and Science and Jesus prophet of Islam, and many others, how much is enough? Please don't give me derogatory advice.
You cant be a good muslim if you are not decent and have a cold heart. Be a decent and kind person and care for women and children and the elderly.
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ummziba
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bullet Posted: 15 June 2005 at 1:52pm

Assalamu alaikum,

I have been reading this thread.  Here are my thoughts, take them or leave them.

(Jenni: I am not against what you have said, I feel the same way, which is why I started reading this thread in the first place!  It got me thinking...and these are my thoughts about it.)

I believe that men and women are different and absolutely think differently.  Men like to do things "the hard way", women seem to see the quickest, effecient way to solve things.  This probably has a lot to do with the fact that women are the caregivers and due to the enormous workload they carry each day, they don't have time to spend looking at everything from every angle, they just get it done!

Men seem to enjoy taking things apart and looking at each little bit, how it works, how it fits in with everything else, other possibilities for it and so on.  It has been my experience that men actually have a bit of trouble finding the quick and easy way to solve things, they seem to make "mountains out of mole hills".

Women are much more practical.  I am not saying that either is somehow deficient or that one is more intelligent than the other.  There are many different kinds of intelligence.  I am just saying that if you read around this forum you will find it is mostly the men who are into the long, drawn out examinations of issues from so many different angles and theories and justifications and ,,, (yawn).

I am not trying to start a male/female war here, far from that.  I have stated on other threads that we are different but this is Allah's plan - men and women complement one another - they complete each other.  Now, some men are more inclined to female thinking and some women are more inclined to male thinking - there are exceptions to any rule. 

The point is, if some wish to "study" Islam a little or study it to the hilt so be it.  If some wish to "live" Islam a little or live it to the hilt, so be it.  We need to support one another and try, each in our own way, to be good Muslims.

Let's stop being so picky about how others follow Islam, as long as they are not deviating from the path. 

We need to stick together Muslims!

Peace, ummziba.



Edited by ummziba
Sticks and stones may break my bones, but your words...they break my soul ~
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aisha
 
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bullet Posted: 16 June 2005 at 2:18am
jenni,sorry you feel this way,i was only giving an example of how other people make time for learning,as for learning arabic dont you think its respect of the qu-ran if you can read it in is own scripture dont you think arabic script is so beautiful that you should learn it,it is after all the qu-rans original text.its is of course my view i love allah(swt)that much i wish to please him in every way,but hey thats just me,allah(swt)should come first.the closer you get to him through knowledge and love the closer he will want you to be to him after death inshallah
aisha
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Ali Zaki
 
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bullet Posted: 16 June 2005 at 7:19am

Salam to Aisha, Ummziba and Jenni,

Aisha, I respect and admire the fact that you are learning Arabic (which I am also attempting) and other activities. However, I think that it is inappropriate to " maybe if you spent a little less time on the internet and picked up a book about islam you would have more knowledge." The Prophet (a.s.) has taught us to avoid criticizing a fellow Muslim unless they are doing something which is haram. I'm sure that your intention in doing this was good, however, it came across a little harsh (from where I sit!).

Ummziba, I enjoyed reading your post and appreciate your "fresh" perspective on the discussion. I know you did not mean to be critical when you said that "they seem to make "mountains out of mole hills", however, I want to say that this is not my intention. My main interest in this particular series of discussion threads is to point out to my fellow brothers and sisters the importance of following those whom our Holy Messenger (a.s.) intented us to follow, the identity of these individuals and their merits (as stated by the Quran and the Holy Prophet (a.s.) and his trustworthy companions.

I believe that the best knowedge is practical knowledge, and gaining knowledge is a pointless exercise unless it either changes the individual or helps him/her to change his family/community, etc. The issue of who should lead the Muslim (who is Adila, or, a just leader)  Umma ( there is only one) is particulary critical in our time. This also relates to many other subjects, which I can expand on if requested.

Salam

"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

Imam Ali (a.s.)
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