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believer

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Posted: 10 May 2008 at 5:04am

Don't the contradictions show up between the Medina and Mecca verses?

Doesn't the Quran say that Allah sends a better verse and one is no longer in use- or something like that?

We are straying off topic LOL!! so easy to do on these threads.

Think of GOD as a loving parent- as a parent don't you make rules that you might not follow because your situation is different then your child's?

As a parent don't you punish!?!

I would think that GOD has the right to make any rule He wants over His creation!

John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

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Ron Webb
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Posted: 10 May 2008 at 7:18am

I was going to start a new topic for this, but I may not have time to pursue it so for now I'll just reply briefly here:

Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt

Perhaps you could point out what you feel is a true contradiction in the Quran.

I'm not sure where you got the list you are quoting from, but here is a link to a pretty good discussion of whether disbelieving parents should be treate with love: http://answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/disbelieving_parents.html. There are several passages that suggest that they should, and several that suggest otherwise. I don't see how they can all be true. In particular, it explains that the Arabic word "auliya" means more than just "protector". It also implies friendship and affection -- otherwise sura 10:62 refers to "protectors of Allah", which would be silly.

Actually I made reference to a couple of suras in my previous message that suggest a more fundamental contradiction, though I mangled the message a bit. As you have asserted in several other discussions, according to the Quran God gives us free will and holds us responsible for our choices; and yet sura 14:4 says that "Allah makes whom He pleases err and He guides whom He pleases", and sura 10:100 says that "And it is not for a soul to believe except by Allah's permission." So if I don't believe in Allah, is that my doing or His? If I end up in Hell as a result, is that my fault or His?

Edited by Ron Webb - 10 May 2008 at 7:29am

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relaxjack

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Posted: 10 May 2008 at 8:18am

Originally posted by Ron Webb

Originally posted by relaxjack

1) How can Jesus tell his followers to love your enemies yet call his enemies by degradable names and condemned them to hell? Is that not a hypocrotical act?

I don't think so. Have you never said angry words to someone you love?

Yes. But I dont call them by degradable names. According to the bible, Jesus called his enemies, the people whom you said he 'loved', snakes, vipers and children of the devil. Should Christians follow the footsteps of the biblical Jesus by 'loving' their enemies but call them childrean of the devil?

Originally posted by Ron Webb

As for condemning them to hell, I think Christians would tell you that it is their own actions that condemn them, not Jesus.

So, are you saying it is right to advocate loving your enemies, on the one hand, and condemning the same people to jehanna, on the other?

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yuzasaf

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Posted: 10 May 2008 at 2:10pm

Does anybody speak Hungarian here?

Beszél itt valaki magyarul?

Yuz Asaf

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Shasta'sAunt
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Posted: 10 May 2008 at 4:49pm

Ronn,

Where does it say in these verses that we cannot show kindness to our parents even if they are disbelievers? Even using the term friend instead of protector? There is nothing in The Quran that states that we should turn away, disown, show cruelty, or harm to parents if they are disbelievers. Just not to choose them as friends/protectors. You can still show them all of the kindness that you want.

The Prophet Mohammed's uncle, Abu Talib, who raised him from childhood did not accept Islam and The Prophet still loved him and showed him affection until the day he died.

"Let believers not make friends with infidels in preference to the faithful – he that does this has nothing to hope for from God – except in self-defence. God admonishes you to fear Him: for to Him you shall all return." S. 3:28

"Believers, do not befriend your fathers or your brothers if they choose unbelief in preference to faith. Wrongdoers are those that befriend them.
Say: ‘If your fathers, your sons, your brothers, your wives, your tribes, the property you have acquired, the merchandise you fear may not be sold, and the homes you love, are dearer to you than God, His apostle and the struggle for His cause, then wait until God shall fulfill His decree. God does not guide the evil-doers.’" S. 9:23-24

"Thou wilt not find any people who believe in God and the Last Day, loving those who resist God and His Apostle, even though they were their fathers or their sons, or their brothers, or their kindred. For such He has written Faith in their hearts, and strengthened them with a spirit from Himself. And He will admit them to Gardens beneath which Rivers flow, to dwell therein (for ever). God will be well pleased with them, and they with Him. They are the Party of God. Truly it is the Party of God that will achieve Felicity." 58:22

Here is part of what comes before this verse:

58:14 Turnest thou not thy attention to those who turn (in friendship) to such as have the Wrath of Allah upon them? They are neither of you nor of them, and they swear to falsehood knowingly.

58:16 They have made their oaths a screen (for their misdeeds): thus they obstruct (men) from the Path of Allah. therefore shall they have a humiliating Penalty.

These are hypocrits and liars who willfully try to lead you astray. Why would you want to love someone like this, even if they were your parent? BUT, there is still nothing here that says you should not still show them kindness.

And I have to honestly say, I would choose my religion over my family if I had to. That does not mean that I would be unkind or cruel, but I would not allow them to try to turn me from my belief in Allah.

As for free will, yes, everything is willed by Allah, including the fact that we have free will. So, we could not err or be guided unless Allah chose to allow us the freedom to do so, nor could we believe or disbelieve unless Allah chose to give us the mental capacity and freedom to do so. Allah does not make us believe or disbelieve, He wills that we have the freedom to do so on our own. But we could not do so on our own unless Allah had willed it. It is with Allah's permission that you are free to choose what you believe, the rest is up to you.

Edited by Shasta'sAunt - 10 May 2008 at 5:12pm

“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt

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Ron Webb
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Posted: 10 May 2008 at 8:26pm

I can't imagine being unfriendly to my parents, and having them regard that as kindness; but in the interest of brevity let's concentrate on this:

Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt

Allah does not make us believe or disbelieve, He wills that we have the freedom to do so on our own.

If "Allah makes whom He pleases err and He guides whom He pleases," how is that different from making us believe or disbelieve? How could our own wills possibly prevail over Allah's?

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Ron Webb
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Posted: 10 May 2008 at 8:55pm

Originally posted by relaxjack

Yes. But I dont call them by degradable names. According to the bible, Jesus called his enemies, the people whom you said he 'loved', snakes, vipers and children of the devil. Should Christians follow the footsteps of the biblical Jesus by 'loving' their enemies but call them childrean of the devil?

Just because you love somebody doesn't (shouldn't) make you blind to their true character. A snake is still a snake, even if you love him/her; and there's no point in pretending otherwise.

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Shasta'sAunt
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Posted: 12 May 2008 at 2:59am

Originally posted by Ron Webb

Just because you love somebody doesn't (shouldn't) make you blind to their true character. A snake is still a snake, even if you love him/her; and there's no point in pretending otherwise.

This could easily be said of parents who try to undermine your religious beliefs. You can still love them and treat them kindly but not take them as protectors, friends, or confidants over those who share and truly follow your faith.

“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt

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Author	Message
believer Guest Group Joined: 08 January 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1397	Posted: 10 May 2008 at 5:04am
	Don't the contradictions show up between the Medina and Mecca verses? Doesn't the Quran say that Allah sends a better verse and one is no longer in use- or something like that? We are straying off topic LOL!! so easy to do on these threads. Think of GOD as a loving parent- as a parent don't you make rules that you might not follow because your situation is different then your child's? As a parent don't you punish!?! I would think that GOD has the right to make any rule He wants over His creation!
	John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
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Ron Webb Male Humanism Senior Member Joined: 30 January 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1409	Posted: 10 May 2008 at 7:18am
	I was going to start a new topic for this, but I may not have time to pursue it so for now I'll just reply briefly here: *Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt* Perhaps you could point out what you feel is a true contradiction in the Quran. I'm not sure where you got the list you are quoting from, but here is a link to a pretty good discussion of whether disbelieving parents should be treate with love: http://answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/disbelieving_parents.html. There are several passages that suggest that they should, and several that suggest otherwise. I don't see how they can all be true. In particular, it explains that the Arabic word "auliya" means more than just "protector". It also implies friendship and affection -- otherwise sura 10:62 refers to "protectors of Allah", which would be silly. Actually I made reference to a couple of suras in my previous message that suggest a more fundamental contradiction, though I mangled the message a bit. As you have asserted in several other discussions, according to the Quran God gives us free will and holds us responsible for our choices; and yet sura 14:4 says that "Allah makes whom He pleases err and He guides whom He pleases", and sura 10:100 says that "And it is not for a soul to believe except by Allah's permission." So if I don't believe in Allah, is that my doing or His? If I end up in Hell as a result, is that my fault or His? Edited by Ron Webb - 10 May 2008 at 7:29am
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relaxjack Starter Joined: 18 April 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 9	Posted: 10 May 2008 at 8:18am
	*Originally posted by Ron Webb* *Originally posted by relaxjack* 1) How can Jesus tell his followers to love your enemies yet call his enemies by degradable names and condemned them to hell? Is that not a hypocrotical act? I don't think so. Have you never said angry words to someone you love? Yes. But I dont call them by degradable names. According to the bible, Jesus called his enemies, the people whom you said he 'loved', snakes, vipers and children of the devil. Should Christians follow the footsteps of the biblical Jesus by 'loving' their enemies but call them childrean of the devil? *Originally posted by Ron Webb* As for condemning them to hell, I think Christians would tell you that it is their own actions that condemn them, not Jesus. So, are you saying it is right to advocate loving your enemies, on the one hand, and condemning the same people to jehanna, on the other?
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yuzasaf Starter Joined: 09 May 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 3	Posted: 10 May 2008 at 2:10pm
	Does anybody speak Hungarian here? Beszél itt valaki magyarul? Yuz Asaf
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Shasta'sAunt Female Islam Senior Member Joined: 29 March 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1930	Posted: 10 May 2008 at 4:49pm
	Ronn, Where does it say in these verses that we cannot show kindness to our parents even if they are disbelievers? Even using the term friend instead of protector? There is nothing in The Quran that states that we should turn away, disown, show cruelty, or harm to parents if they are disbelievers. Just not to choose them as friends/protectors. You can still show them all of the kindness that you want. The Prophet Mohammed's uncle, Abu Talib, who raised him from childhood did not accept Islam and The Prophet still loved him and showed him affection until the day he died. "Let believers not make friends with infidels in preference to the faithful – he that does this has nothing to hope for from God – except in self-defence. God admonishes you to fear Him: for to Him you shall all return." S. 3:28 "Believers, do not befriend your fathers or your brothers if they choose unbelief in preference to faith. Wrongdoers are those that befriend them. Say: ‘If your fathers, your sons, your brothers, your wives, your tribes, the property you have acquired, the merchandise you fear may not be sold, and the homes you love, are dearer to you than God, His apostle and the struggle for His cause, then wait until God shall fulfill His decree. God does not guide the evil-doers.’" S. 9:23-24 "Thou wilt not find any people who believe in God and the Last Day, loving those who resist God and His Apostle, even though they were their fathers or their sons, or their brothers, or their kindred. For such He has written Faith in their hearts, and strengthened them with a spirit from Himself. And He will admit them to Gardens beneath which Rivers flow, to dwell therein (for ever). God will be well pleased with them, and they with Him. They are the Party of God. Truly it is the Party of God that will achieve Felicity." 58:22 Here is part of what comes before this verse: 58:14 Turnest thou not thy attention to those who turn (in friendship) to such as have the Wrath of Allah upon them? They are neither of you nor of them, and they swear to falsehood knowingly. 58:16 They have made their oaths a screen (for their misdeeds): thus they obstruct (men) from the Path of Allah. therefore shall they have a humiliating Penalty. These are hypocrits and liars who willfully try to lead you astray. Why would you want to love someone like this, even if they were your parent? BUT, there is still nothing here that says you should not still show them kindness. And I have to honestly say, I would choose my religion over my family if I had to. That does not mean that I would be unkind or cruel, but I would not allow them to try to turn me from my belief in Allah. As for free will, yes, everything is willed by Allah, including the fact that we have free will. So, we could not err or be guided unless Allah chose to allow us the freedom to do so, nor could we believe or disbelieve unless Allah chose to give us the mental capacity and freedom to do so. Allah does not make us believe or disbelieve, He wills that we have the freedom to do so on our own. But we could not do so on our own unless Allah had willed it. It is with Allah's permission that you are free to choose what you believe, the rest is up to you. Edited by Shasta'sAunt - 10 May 2008 at 5:12pm
	“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.” Eleanor Roosevelt
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Ron Webb Male Humanism Senior Member Joined: 30 January 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1409	Posted: 10 May 2008 at 8:26pm
	I can't imagine being unfriendly to my parents, and having them regard that as kindness; but in the interest of brevity let's concentrate on this: *Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt* Allah does not make us believe or disbelieve, He wills that we have the freedom to do so on our own. If "Allah makes whom He pleases err and He guides whom He pleases," how is that different from making us believe or disbelieve? How could our own wills possibly prevail over Allah's?
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Ron Webb Male Humanism Senior Member Joined: 30 January 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1409	Posted: 10 May 2008 at 8:55pm
	*Originally posted by relaxjack* Yes. But I dont call them by degradable names. According to the bible, Jesus called his enemies, the people whom you said he 'loved', snakes, vipers and children of the devil. Should Christians follow the footsteps of the biblical Jesus by 'loving' their enemies but call them childrean of the devil? Just because you love somebody doesn't (shouldn't) make you blind to their true character. A snake is still a snake, even if you love him/her; and there's no point in pretending otherwise.
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Shasta'sAunt Female Islam Senior Member Joined: 29 March 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1930	Posted: 12 May 2008 at 2:59am
	*Originally posted by Ron Webb* *Originally posted by relaxjack* Yes. But I dont call them by degradable names. According to the bible, Jesus called his enemies, the people whom you said he 'loved', snakes, vipers and children of the devil. Should Christians follow the footsteps of the biblical Jesus by 'loving' their enemies but call them childrean of the devil? Just because you love somebody doesn't (shouldn't) make you blind to their true character. A snake is still a snake, even if you love him/her; and there's no point in pretending otherwise. This could easily be said of parents who try to undermine your religious beliefs. You can still love them and treat them kindly but not take them as protectors, friends, or confidants over those who share and truly follow your faith.
	“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.” Eleanor Roosevelt
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