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Interfaith Dialogue
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Gulliver
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Quote Gulliver Replybullet Posted: 01 November 2008 at 3:05pm
And Ron is right. If we cannot judge then by today's standards.
 
Things today should not be judged by the standards of 6/7th century Arabia.  Or we end up with double standards, and a lot of people seriously pissed off, blaming God for the judgements and misconceptions of religious hypocrites.
 
 Hey folks. I am NOT saying this is true of Muhammad or not or that it is how it might seem. It's just information that's out there. And like information on so many of these religious issues - I believe you have to search your own heart and mind and come to your own conclusions, what you choose to believe in the end. It's always a challenge. There are many things I find difficult with Chrisitianity too.


Edited by Gulliver - 01 November 2008 at 3:11pm
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Ron Webb
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 02 November 2008 at 7:34am
Originally posted by Gulliver

I dunno. I think you're right Ron. We've all been deceived by the big shaitan.
Gulliver, please don't quote me as saying or implying that.  I don't believe in Satan any more than I believe in God, and I certainly would never claim that any mainstream religion was satanic in origin.  Once again, what I said was that IF you believe in supernatural Beings, then how would you know whether the Being with Whom you communicated was God or Satan?
Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
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Gulliver
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Quote Gulliver Replybullet Posted: 02 November 2008 at 7:59am
I know Ron. I was kidding :-) I know you are an atheistic, satan worshipping idolator at heart ;-)
 
That's partly my point. If God is God, then God as Creator of all must be above our understanding and comrehension of all for the greater part; and we all get glimpses of God in and through all that is created, if we look hard enough.
 
No person or group has the only 'truth' - whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help me God forever and ever amen. That would be the 'deception of the shaitan' for those claiming to believe, that they believe they alone have the 'truth' - whole truth, and all others are somehow completely deceived.
 
We can all argue this, that and the other till we are blue in the gills. The bottom line is one of faith in the end it seems. Either there is belief or there is not. And even that depends on how we intrepret 'faith' - and in what we put that faith. If I worship God through a tree God has created - how can that be said to be 'wrong'. I worship God the Creator, through the created - a tree. God as Creator would know this, knowing my heart and soul - having created me and the tree.
 
I'd love to know how many 'believers' in this world 'worship' something created as Creator. None can read the heart of another - yet we all seem capable of judging what is in the heart of another by appearances - how they seem to 'worship' or not.
 
No Ron, I don't think you meant, or were implying that religions had satanic origin. But that if the 'supernatural' entities exist - then that 'shaitan' would love to have us all believe we believe in different versions of the same Creator and keep us in conflict over this.

Summat like that.
 
 


Edited by Gulliver - 02 November 2008 at 3:10pm
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Shasta'sAunt
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Quote Shasta'sAunt Replybullet Posted: 02 November 2008 at 11:34am
Originally posted by believer

 Is this a site that can be trusted?
 

All perfect praise be to Allaah, The Lord of the Worlds. I testify that there is none worthy of worship except Allaah, and that Muhammad %20sallallaahu%20%20`alayhi%20%20wa%20%20sallam%20%28%20may%20%20Allaah%20exalt%20his%20mention%20%29 is His slave and Messenger.

 

The term Mufaakhathah means to have foreplay with the wife in between her thighs. It is reported in one narration that when the Prophet %20sallallaahu%20%20`alayhi%20%20wa%20%20sallam%20%28%20may%20%20Allaah%20exalt%20his%20mention%20%29 wanted to enjoy one of his wives who was in menstruation, he would put a piece of cloth on her vagina (i.e. cover it). [Ibn Maajah].

The author of Faydh Al-Qadeer interpreted the expression 'if he wanted to enjoy to mean having all permissible foreplay but avoiding the vagina [or the anus], like in between her thighs (i.e. Mufaakhathah).   

Allaah Knows best.

 
Originally I understood this to be used when the wife was menustrating.  Then I found the fatwa from Khomeini.
 
Can fatwas be undone?  or are the just not followed?
 
The Quran tells men to stay away from their menstruating wives. As stated here so many times before, The Quran is always considered authentic over a Hadith if they contradict.
 
Al-Baqara (The Cow)

2:222 They ask thee concerning women's courses. Say: They are a hurt and a pollution: So keep away from women in their courses, and do not approach them until they are clean. But when they have purified themselves, ye may approach them in any manner, time, or place ordained for you by Allah. For Allah loves those who turn to Him constantly and He loves those who keep themselves pure and clean.

Keep away. Very clear.....
 
AND once again, a fatwa can be issued by anyone and anyone can choose to follow or not follow. If the fatwa has no basis in Islam then it is useless either way. It would be like a minister telling you it is fine to do something that has absolutely no basis in Christianity. If it seems crazy and is not found in the Bible, why would you do it?
“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt
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Shasta'sAunt
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Quote Shasta'sAunt Replybullet Posted: 02 November 2008 at 11:42am
"Supposedly he wrote it in Arabic before the revolution to avoid the the Shah's censors.  There is a Persian version that I came across on the Web somewhere though."
 
He was in exile during the Shah's reign so what difference would it have made if he wrote it in persian?
 
Yes, they leave all of the bad stuff out of the English translations because Iranians and Arabs are very concerned about what the English speaking world thinks of them.
 
I think it's far more likely that someone is giving a false translation becaus ethey know that Westerners won't know the difference and most want to believe the worst anyway.
“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt
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Shasta'sAunt
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Quote Shasta'sAunt Replybullet Posted: 02 November 2008 at 11:57am
"According to Catholicism and Eastern Orthodox, Mary's conception of Jesus was miraculous.  The 'virgin birth' of Jesus. Qu'ran affirms this I believe. Catholics believe Mary remained chaste throughout her life. Qu'ran affirms this I believe. There is the question of God 'impregnating' a young girl perhaps."
 
Well, apparently God thought that a 12 year old was mature enough to bear Him incarnate.
 
But my point was more that at the time Mary became pregnant very few people actually believed she was a virgin, even Joseph thought she had been sexually active at first, YET no-one thought it strange that a 12 year old was pregnant. They were more shocked that she was unmarried than that she was pregnant at her age.  If you look at 12 year olds now it would be difficult to imagine such a burden or honor being placed upon them.
 
So, I would have to say that we absolutely cannot compare the young girls back then with the girls of today.
“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt
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Gulliver
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Quote Gulliver Replybullet Posted: 02 November 2008 at 1:26pm
Where is the evidence that Mary was 12 years old ?
 
"So, I would have to say that we absolutely cannot compare the young girls back then with the girls of today. "
 
You're very sure here Shasta, claiming absolutes now.
 
Joseph had nothing to do with it according to Islam. Allah left Mary on her own, till the infant started to speak. All other versions are 'corrupt' or they are not
 
If you are correct with your 'absolute' interpretation Shasta. Then there are many other matters/issues that should not be judged today according to 6/7th century attitudes/norms.
 
There are societies who still believe it OK for men to choose child brides. If you had a 6 or 9 year old daughter, even 12 year old daughter Shasta;  would you let some fifty year old man have her for his wife ?
 
If not, why not ? 
 
I'd like to understand how it was OK to marry and have sex with children then, and it's not today - whether Aisha or Mary, for me is irrelevant. What has changed ? What do we know now that was not known then ? Why is it accepted, and rightly so, to be harmful to children to expose them to that at such a tender age today and not then ? If God was in control of it all - why didn't the 'prophets' realise how seriously harmful it could be. The prophet was well ahead of his time, even scientifically apparently when it came to eating pigs and pig products - amongst other things. Why not on such a serious matter as child sexual abuse ?
 
That's kinda the perspective I am trying to get on it all.
 
 
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Gulliver
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Quote Gulliver Replybullet Posted: 02 November 2008 at 1:44pm
Just another thing that occurs to me. Modesty is emphasised in Islam amongst other faiths. If children were raised in such 'modest'  environments - then it could actually be more harmful to expose them to the full onslaught of sexual intercourse and bearing children at such a tender age.
 
Even today people find it very hard to talk about or discuss sexual abuse - within families, societies. They don't wish to admit it happened, and even they do - they are left as powerless and impotent as the 'victim' very often - not being able to do anything, or moreso, know what to do. There is a veil of secrecy around all of it, and it would seem that 'modesty' itself might compound/perpetuate the problem.
 
Maybe it's all about abrogation. 'God' changing the rules again. It was OK back then, but with advances in psychology, psychiatry and bio medical sciences - showing that it can have devastating effects - the rules must change accordingly. Dunno.
 
Maybe it was all perfectly OK and normal and acceptable back then and no harm was done. Dunno that either.
 
My point is - why is it different today ? What has changed.  
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