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Angel

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Posted: 31 October 2008 at 8:15pm

See, things go back and forth and I can't remember myself, lol!

[IMG]http://www.mysmilie.de/smilies/engel/img/003.gif" />~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~

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Ron Webb
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Posted: 31 October 2008 at 8:27pm

Originally posted by Angel

Don't judge by todays standards.

Absolutely, I agree 100%. Bear in mind that in those days people were lucky to live beyond their thirties or forties, so society didn't have the luxury of extended childhood.

On the other hand, Muslims are encouraged to model their lives after Muhammad, forgetting that he lived in a very different time. If you can't judge Muhammad by today's standards, neither can you judge today by Muhammad's standards.

Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.

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Shasta'sAunt
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Posted: 01 November 2008 at 5:35am

There are scholars who also say that Aisha was older than 9. Even within the same books of Hadith her age varies. Since there were no birth certificates at the time we cannot be sure. But performing the nikah does not necessarily mean that you immediately have sex.

Angel did have a point when she mentioned Mary. According to theological sources she was 12 when she was betrothed to Joseph, a much older man with children from a previous marriage, and 12 or 13 when she had Jesus.

I'm not sure why this is not as big a deal as Aisha's age.

“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt

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Shasta'sAunt
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Posted: 01 November 2008 at 5:46am

[QUOTE=Ron Webb]

Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt

Second, there is no proof that Khomeini ever issued such a fatwa.

It is one of those stories that's statrs and gets passed around but no-one ever shows any proof that it happened. Please post irrefutable proof here that such a thing occurred.

The allegation is based on a book that Khomeini wrote titled "Tahrir al Wasilah", which supposedly contains all sorts of hideous stuff. There's a photograph of the book, a sampling of some of the more perverted statements, and a downloadable file of the book's contents, here: http://ethnikoi.org/iran.html . (And by the way, I scanned it for viruses -- it's clean.) It's in Arabic, of course, so I can't tell you what it says. Maybe someone can volunteer to take a look at it.

[/QUOTE]

How do we know who this book was written by or what the purpose was?

Since Iranians speak and write Persian I am curious as to how Khomeini wrote a book in Arabic and not in his native language. Especially since it is regarding supposed shariah law in Iran. That would be like the U.S. government suddenly deciding to write all of our laws in German or Japanese. Worse, actually, since Khomeini was a dictator and his laws had to be followed.

Since Iran is the new Great Satan I am sure all sorts of hideous stories will appear and probably disappear, like those WMDs in Iraq.

Irregardless, such things are not Islamic and anyone with half a brain and the ability to read would recognise this right away.

“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt

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believer

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Posted: 01 November 2008 at 7:27am

Is this a site that can be trusted?

http://www.islamweb.net/ver2/Fatwa/ShowFatwa.php?lang=E&Id=92051&Option=FatwaId

All perfect praise be to Allaah, The Lord of the Worlds. I testify that there is none worthy of worship except Allaah, and that Muhammad is His slave and Messenger.

The term Mufaakhathah means to have foreplay with the wife in between her thighs. It is reported in one narration that when the Prophet wanted to enjoy one of his wives who was in menstruation, he would put a piece of cloth on her vagina (i.e. cover it). [Ibn Maajah].

The author of Faydh Al-Qadeer interpreted the expression 'if he wanted to enjoy to mean having all permissible foreplay but avoiding the vagina [or the anus], like in between her thighs (i.e. Mufaakhathah).

Allaah Knows best.

Originally I understood this to be used when the wife was menustrating. Then I found the fatwa from Khomeini.

Can fatwas be undone? or are the just not followed?

John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

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believer

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Posted: 01 November 2008 at 7:30am

Gulliver- So sorry to hear of your abuse.

May GOD give you physical, emotional and spiritual health and strength.

John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

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Ron Webb
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Posted: 01 November 2008 at 2:09pm

Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt

How do we know who this book was written by or what the purpose was?

You mean "Tahrir al Wasilah" or the Quran?

Since Iranians speak and write Persian I am curious as to how Khomeini wrote a book in Arabic and not in his native language.

Supposedly he wrote it in Arabic before the revolution to avoid the the Shah's censors. There is a Persian version that I came across on the Web somewhere though.

There is also an English version online: http://www.zainab.org/commonpages/ebooks/english/tahrir/index.html

I looked around the Engish version briefly and although there's a lot of bizarre stuff in there (to my non-Muslim intellect, anyway), there's nothing quite as outrageous as the quotes that are used to slander it. On the other hand, it is often said that English translations deliberately omit the more controversial parts, so I'm still not sure what to believe about it.

Can someone please take a look at the Arabic version at the link I posted earlier?

Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.

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Gulliver
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Posted: 01 November 2008 at 2:58pm

"of course you are right.

But what makes you think that Muhammed had sex with the 9 year old.

I've been here for a long time and this is one of few sujects that pop up from time to time. Muhammed may have married Aisha at 9 but marrying someone doesn't really indicate your having sex, even thou that is what happens when you get married, but anyway..." Why marry her at all at that age ?

I have no idea if he had sex or not Angel, if he married a nine year old, or not. I don't know. Like I don't know for a fact anything else. You read and hear so many things about all of these matters - Islamic and Christian - it's a wonder we are able to believe anything.

According to Catholicism and Eastern Orthodox, Mary's conception of Jesus was miraculous. The 'virgin birth' of Jesus. Qu'ran affirms this I believe. Catholics believe Mary remained chaste throughout her life. Qu'ran affirms this I believe. There is the question of God 'impregnating' a young girl perhaps.

And then the matter of a man in his fifties possibly having sex with what today would be regarded as a young child. She is referenced regularly in hadith as playing with her dolls as said above. It might be 'culturally' acceptable, but that does not make such a behaviour 'right' or healhty.

When we say not to judge by today's standards. These people are supposed to be above the rest of us - models of a life that cannot seem less 'holy' today than it would have then. Simply put - he should have known better, IF he married a child and had sex with her ?

It's about understanding these things properly - so they are seen for what they really were - and cannot be used to bash the given 'prophet' and undermine the religion. What is the truth of any of it and does that truth hold today as it did then.

I dunno. I think you're right Ron. We've all been deceived by the big shaitan. A 'God' who seems intent in pitting us all against each other till we're all dead and burning for ever and ever in hell :-)

Have just glimpsed at that link you had there. Is that a compendium for obsessive compulsives ?

Edited by Gulliver - 01 November 2008 at 3:23pm

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Author	Message
Angel Senior Member Joined: 03 July 2001 Online Status: Offline Posts: 6626	Posted: 31 October 2008 at 8:15pm
	See, things go back and forth and I can't remember myself, lol!
	[IMG]http://www.mysmilie.de/smilies/engel/img/003.gif" />~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
	IP Logged

Ron Webb Male Humanism Senior Member Joined: 30 January 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1403	Posted: 31 October 2008 at 8:27pm
	*Originally posted by Angel* Don't judge by todays standards. Absolutely, I agree 100%. Bear in mind that in those days people were lucky to live beyond their thirties or forties, so society didn't have the luxury of extended childhood. On the other hand, Muslims are encouraged to model their lives after Muhammad, forgetting that he lived in a very different time. If you can't judge Muhammad by today's standards, neither can you judge today by Muhammad's standards.
	Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
	IP Logged

Shasta'sAunt Female Islam Senior Member Joined: 29 March 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1930	Posted: 01 November 2008 at 5:35am
	There are scholars who also say that Aisha was older than 9. Even within the same books of Hadith her age varies. Since there were no birth certificates at the time we cannot be sure. But performing the nikah does not necessarily mean that you immediately have sex. Angel did have a point when she mentioned Mary. According to theological sources she was 12 when she was betrothed to Joseph, a much older man with children from a previous marriage, and 12 or 13 when she had Jesus. I'm not sure why this is not as big a deal as Aisha's age.
	“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.” Eleanor Roosevelt
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Shasta'sAunt Female Islam Senior Member Joined: 29 March 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1930	Posted: 01 November 2008 at 5:46am
	[QUOTE=Ron Webb] *Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt* Second, there is no proof that Khomeini ever issued such a fatwa. It is one of those stories that's statrs and gets passed around but no-one ever shows any proof that it happened. Please post irrefutable proof here that such a thing occurred. The allegation is based on a book that Khomeini wrote titled "Tahrir al Wasilah", which supposedly contains all sorts of hideous stuff. There's a photograph of the book, a sampling of some of the more perverted statements, and a downloadable file of the book's contents, here: http://ethnikoi.org/iran.html . (And by the way, I scanned it for viruses -- it's clean.) It's in Arabic, of course, so I can't tell you what it says. Maybe someone can volunteer to take a look at it. [/QUOTE] How do we know who this book was written by or what the purpose was? Since Iranians speak and write Persian I am curious as to how Khomeini wrote a book in Arabic and not in his native language. Especially since it is regarding supposed shariah law in Iran. That would be like the U.S. government suddenly deciding to write all of our laws in German or Japanese. Worse, actually, since Khomeini was a dictator and his laws had to be followed. Since Iran is the new Great Satan I am sure all sorts of hideous stories will appear and probably disappear, like those WMDs in Iraq. Irregardless, such things are not Islamic and anyone with half a brain and the ability to read would recognise this right away.
	“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.” Eleanor Roosevelt
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believer Guest Group Joined: 08 January 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1397	Posted: 01 November 2008 at 7:27am
	Is this a site that can be trusted? http://www.islamweb.net/ver2/Fatwa/ShowFatwa.php?lang=E&Id=92051&Option=FatwaId All perfect praise be to Allaah, The Lord of the Worlds. I testify that there is none worthy of worship except Allaah, and that Muhammad is His slave and Messenger. The term Mufaakhathah means to have foreplay with the wife in between her thighs. It is reported in one narration that when the Prophet wanted to enjoy one of his wives who was in menstruation, he would put a piece of cloth on her vagina (i.e. cover it). [Ibn Maajah]. The author of Faydh Al-Qadeer interpreted the expression 'if he wanted to enjoy to mean having all permissible foreplay but avoiding the vagina [or the anus], like in between her thighs (i.e. Mufaakhathah). Allaah Knows best. Originally I understood this to be used when the wife was menustrating. Then I found the fatwa from Khomeini. Can fatwas be undone? or are the just not followed?
	John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
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believer Guest Group Joined: 08 January 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1397	Posted: 01 November 2008 at 7:30am
	Gulliver- So sorry to hear of your abuse. May GOD give you physical, emotional and spiritual health and strength.
	John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
	IP Logged

Ron Webb Male Humanism Senior Member Joined: 30 January 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1403	Posted: 01 November 2008 at 2:09pm
	*Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt* How do we know who this book was written by or what the purpose was? You mean "Tahrir al Wasilah" or the Quran? Since Iranians speak and write Persian I am curious as to how Khomeini wrote a book in Arabic and not in his native language. Supposedly he wrote it in Arabic before the revolution to avoid the the Shah's censors. There is a Persian version that I came across on the Web somewhere though. There is also an English version online: http://www.zainab.org/commonpages/ebooks/english/tahrir/index.html I looked around the Engish version briefly and although there's a lot of bizarre stuff in there (to my non-Muslim intellect, anyway), there's nothing quite as outrageous as the quotes that are used to slander it. On the other hand, it is often said that English translations deliberately omit the more controversial parts, so I'm still not sure what to believe about it. Can someone please take a look at the Arabic version at the link I posted earlier?
	Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
	IP Logged

Gulliver None Senior Member Joined: 12 September 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 621	Posted: 01 November 2008 at 2:58pm
	"of course you are right. But what makes you think that Muhammed had sex with the 9 year old. I've been here for a long time and this is one of few sujects that pop up from time to time. Muhammed may have married Aisha at 9 but marrying someone doesn't really indicate your having sex, even thou that is what happens when you get married, but anyway..." Why marry her at all at that age ? I have no idea if he had sex or not Angel, if he married a nine year old, or not. I don't know. Like I don't know for a fact anything else. You read and hear so many things about all of these matters - Islamic and Christian - it's a wonder we are able to believe anything. According to Catholicism and Eastern Orthodox, Mary's conception of Jesus was miraculous. The 'virgin birth' of Jesus. Qu'ran affirms this I believe. Catholics believe Mary remained chaste throughout her life. Qu'ran affirms this I believe. There is the question of God 'impregnating' a young girl perhaps. And then the matter of a man in his fifties possibly having sex with what today would be regarded as a young child. She is referenced regularly in hadith as playing with her dolls as said above. It might be 'culturally' acceptable, but that does not make such a behaviour 'right' or healhty. When we say not to judge by today's standards. These people are supposed to be above the rest of us - models of a life that cannot seem less 'holy' today than it would have then. Simply put - he should have known better, IF he married a child and had sex with her ? It's about understanding these things properly - so they are seen for what they really were - and cannot be used to bash the given 'prophet' and undermine the religion. What is the truth of any of it and does that truth hold today as it did then. I dunno. I think you're right Ron. We've all been deceived by the big shaitan. A 'God' who seems intent in pitting us all against each other till we're all dead and burning for ever and ever in hell :-) Have just glimpsed at that link you had there. Is that a compendium for obsessive compulsives ? Edited by Gulliver - 01 November 2008 at 3:23pm
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