IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum: Did Muhammad condone lying?

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Ron Webb
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Posted: 03 May 2008 at 7:41am

Originally posted by Andalus

Jacob stole the blessings from his brother, and God condoned it.

That's true, but then "Allah forgives who He wills", right?

Originally posted by Andalus

Originally posted by Doo-bop

The bottom line is - you have failed to show that the God of the bible ordered, authorised or condoned this lie.

Never claimed God ordered it, or authorized, but He did condone it.

Condone: To overlook, forgive, or disregard (an offense) without protest or censure.
http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry/condone

You're right, and I wish I had been more careful in my choice of words in the title of this discussion. Of course Muhammad condoned (as in "forgave") lying on occasion, and so does Allah. What I meant to ask was, did Muhammad ever approve of or advocate lying?

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believer

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Posted: 05 May 2008 at 2:52pm

There is more to the story- please read:

Genesis 25

29 Once when Jacob was cooking some stew, Esau came in from the open country, famished. 30 He said to Jacob, "Quick, let me have some of that red stew! I'm famished!" (That is why he was also called Edom.)

31 Jacob replied, "First sell me your birthright."

32 "Look, I am about to die," Esau said. "What good is the birthright to me?"

33 But Jacob said, "Swear to me first." So he swore an oath to him, selling his birthright to Jacob.

34 Then Jacob gave Esau some bread and some lentil stew. He ate and drank, and then got up and left.
So Esau despised his birthright.

GOD chooses the lesser of evils to carry out His plan.

John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

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Andalus

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Posted: 05 May 2008 at 3:38pm

Originally posted by believer

There is more to the story- please read:

Genesis 25

31 Jacob replied, "First sell me your birthright."

32 "Look, I am about to die," Esau said. "What good is the birthright to me?"

33 But Jacob said, "Swear to me first." So he swore an oath to him, selling his birthright to Jacob.

34 Then Jacob gave Esau some bread and some lentil stew. He ate and drank, and then got up and left.
So Esau despised his birthright.

GOD chooses the lesser of evils to carry out His plan.

I already discussed this in detail in a previous contribution. Please read what I wrote and respond directly. I am not going to repeat myself.

Thanks

A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/
http://www.pt-go.com/

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Doo-bop

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Posted: 07 May 2008 at 11:38am

Andalus wrote:-

"So, you have only managed to tell me that I was correct, you skipped the the bible's view of Jacob was a poor character who used his brothers hunger and thirst as a means to trick him. You bring up a verse that creates more problems, Gen 27:36 only shows a brother who just had his blessings stolen through a lie, trying to explain to his father that his brother, Jacob, is a liar who wanted to cheat him out of his birthright. (no one in there right mind bu a bible thumping evangelical would believe that Esau actually gave up his land for fod and drink) The context of Gen 25:29-34 is hardly one that tells us that an actual exchange of birthright took place."

You simply do not know how to read properly. The statements presented on the page somehow escape you. Genesis 27:36 shows Esau stating that his birthright had already been taken away (not complaining that his liar brother wanted to take it away, but had taken it away). Your comments regarding Genesis 25:29-34 are utterly ridiculous. For instance, v.33 states "and he sold his birthright unto Jacob". v.34 gives the reason - "Esau despised his birthright". And your interpretation of this? - he did not sell his birthright!

This -

3) Genesis 27:36-Essau went to fetch meat for his father and receive the blessing

a) he forgot he sold it

b) he changed his mind

c) he really did not sell it

as I have already pointed out, shows your total confusion re the story, as you confuse the birthright with the blessing. First of all, Genesis 27:36 does not show Esau going to fetch meat for his father. He has already fetched it by that time, brought it to him, and has been with his father some time already. The three possibilities you posit are ludicrous. How could he forget he sold the blessing when he did not sell it? It was his birthright he sold.

Btw, please do not refer to me as a "bible thumper" again. I believe the Holy Bible to be the Word of God. I have already raised objections to this on this thread....

"So we now have a brother, the spiritual successor of Abraham, who is a master liar, as the one who would be called "Israel". A man painted as an effeminate, sniffeling, camp boy, would be Israel! Nice story there boo bop! The deeper you go with trying to defend this immoral story, the more obfuscated you show your book to be. Thanks for you help."

Oh please......this is what happens when you get over confident in your own logical ability, Andalus. You start talking rubbish... Effeminate? - substantiate this. Sniveling? - substantiate this. Camp boy? Do you even understand the connotations of the word "camp"? dwelling in tents does not make you "camp". And you make the typical muslim error of assuming that a story containing, and dealing with immorality, is an immoral story...

"Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world" - John the Baptizer (John 1:29)

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Doo-bop

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Posted: 07 May 2008 at 12:22pm

Andalus wrote:-

"I find it amazing that you cannot get your mind around that fact that humans are capable of following the commands of God, and that God would create humans who would be "role models" for the rest of us that the message being preached can also be followed. What is the use of sending a message to mankind when the messenger is more dubious than in character than the best man in the audience? It makes no sense. The idea that we are flawed and incapable of making correct choices is the substandard by product of your theology. "

I am unaware of any branch of Christianity which states that, although flawed, we are incapable of making correct choices.

"We are not just talking about "any men", we are talking about those who were chosen to reveal a message to mankind. You want to talk about a pizza delivery guy, fine. What we are talking about are people who were born with the sole destiny of teaching man of God and God's plan."

Jacob, for instance, was not born with any such destiny. (Neither was Abraham, Isaac or Joseph). If you think otherwise, prove it from the Bible. Or is this another quranic overlap you're trying to get me to swallow?

"Conjecture. In your mind, if it does not say it, then it must be anyway is your confession of following your ill conceived notions of theology.

Job was a man who followed the law.

Moses echoes a thesis in opposition to your replacement theology:

Deut 30

Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, "Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, "Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" 14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.

By revealing men who were more flawed than many of the audience members, it is so easy to pass off petty excuses for not following the commands of God. Your OT has God telling you that His commands are not too difficult."

Hmmm.... have you been sneaking a go at my crack pipe? I think you have.. otherwise why are you talking about Job? I haven't been, I was talking about Joseph. Joseph did not follow the law, nor did Jacob, nor did Isaac, nor did Abraham. They all died before the law was even given....

"I wish you fellow American Christians were as forth coming. They seem to forget that the Israelis persecute Arab Christians as well."

I wasn't making a big point about this, as it's off-topic, but didn't the phrase "muslim occupied Judea-Samaria" give you a little clue? I hold muslims responsible for the deprivations of christian people (which are many and varied) in muslim-ruled areas, or even just in muslim-majority areas

"Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world" - John the Baptizer (John 1:29)

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Doo-bop

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Posted: 07 May 2008 at 1:16pm

"Condone: To overlook, forgive, or disregard (an offense) without protest or censure.

http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry/condone"

I would say this is very poor. If you condone a thing then why forgive it? forgiving something clearly implies that you know it to be wrong, and yet forgive it. Forgiving something clearly implies you do not condone it.

"No one has argued that deception is not a part of war. You are an idiot if you truly believe that deception in wartime is immoral. Intellgence and counter-intelligence has been used since the days of Moses, for the sake of war. In war there is killing, like whan Jesus, according to your bible, gave the order to "kill" children. So, no, not enough said, only you trying real hard to handwave your irrational, delusional views away."

So once again you are merely confirming what has been said. Muhammad/Allah has clearly ordered muslims to fight, go to war and shed blood. War, they say, is deception. Therefore muslims have been ordered to deceive. Christians, on the other hand, have not been ordered to fight, go to war, or shed blood for any reason. Commands to the nation of Israel in this respect are not valid for us, for reasons I've been over already (we are not the nation of Israel, not living under the mosaic covenant, and do not have a land to conquer or defend)

"Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world" - John the Baptizer (John 1:29)

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Andalus

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Posted: 07 May 2008 at 2:57pm

Originally posted by Doo-bop

Andalus wrote:-

This -

3) Genesis 27:36-Essau went to fetch meat for his father and receive the blessing

a) he forgot he sold it

b) he changed his mind

c) he really did not sell it

Btw, please do not refer to me as a "bible thumper" again. I believe the Holy Bible to be the Word of God. I have already raised objections to this on this thread....

Originally posted by Andalus

Please put us all out of your intellectual misery. The confusion is that you lack even the basic skills of critical thinking to actually understand what I gave you. The choices were possible, not probable, as a means to make a rational conclusion. Forgive me for giving you the benefit of doubt that you were capable of reading and discerning above high school freshman work. I will, in the future, spell things out mush more simple for you. Would this help?

How can he forget? Easy! He did not actually sell anything and simply wanted to eat. Not one but you and your theology would actually believe that someone would "really" sell their birthright for their thirst to be quenched. The real issue is how pathetic your bible makes Jacob look.

Originally posted by DooBop

"So we now have a brother, the spiritual successor of Abraham, who is a master liar, as the one who would be called "<ST1:COUNTRY-REGIoN w:st="on">Israel</ST1:COUNTRY-REGIoN>". A man painted as an effeminate, sniffeling, camp boy, would be Israel! Nice story there boo bop! The deeper you go with trying to defend this immoral story, the more obfuscated you show your book to be. Thanks for you help."

Oh please......this is what happens when you get over confident in your own logical ability, Andalus. You start talking rubbish...

Not rubbish, "Fact". Does not your bible bible paint Jacob as a sniffeling mother's camp boy who has to use tricks and bad manners to fulfill the "wise counsel" of your biblical God? Yes or no? The story says yes.

Originally posted by DooBop

Effeminate? - substantiate this. Sniveling? - substantiate this. Camp boy? Do you even understand the connotations of the word "camp"? dwelling in tents does not make you "camp". And you make the typical muslim error of assuming that a story containing, and dealing with immorality, is an immoral story...

I did substantiate it. It is written in your bible, that you yourself have quoted. The same verses. Play obtuse, whine, complain, cry about how unfair I am being, the fact remains what is written within your own "book of God", to fulfill your "God's Wise counsel". A camp boy? Thats the boy who is too effeminate to go out and do man's work, the boy who stays home with momma and does her bidding, who has to sneak and steal for your "Mighty God's Wise Counsel", who uses his own brother's thrist from a days work to try and trick him into giving up his birthright.

Nice story doo bop!

Edited by Andalus - 07 May 2008 at 10:34pm

A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/
http://www.pt-go.com/

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Doo-bop

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Posted: 08 May 2008 at 9:42am

Andalus wrote:-

"How can he forget? Easy! He did not actually sell anything and simply wanted to eat. Not one but you and your theology would actually believe that someone would "really" sell their birthright for their thirst to be quenched. The real issue is how pathetic your bible makes Jacob look."

Once again, the facts seem to have passed you by. Perhaps that is your fate. Esau sold his birthright to Jacob (Genesis 25:33). Why? (and this is what you cannot get your head round) because he despised it (Genesis 25:34). This is not down to me, or my "theology", it is what the text says. But that is precisely what you are trying to get us to doubt, or so it seems. And why? Because your Muhammad seemed to think that Jacob was a prophet whose sole purpose (how did you detail it?) was to convey to mankind the will of God (or something like that)

heheh, he obviously hadn't read the story, had he? Of course not, he couldn't read (allegedly)

I don't know why you seem to hate Jacob so much. I know he was a liar and a deceiver, but why are you adding such things as "effeminate", "sniveling", "camp"? You have not substantiated any of this! This is your fantasy world kicking in despite yourself! Is "liar" and "deceiver" not enough?

Actually, I don't know why you muslims seem to hate Jacob so much. He was bad in his early years, that is true, but as for calling him "pathetic", well, I think Esau was even more pathetic, because he despised his birth right.

And Jacob would have made a really good muslim, let's face it. Muslims have been ordered to go to war, and war, according to Muhammad, is deceit. And Jacob was a deceiver.....

"Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world" - John the Baptizer (John 1:29)

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Topic: Did Muhammad condone lying?
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Author	Message
Ron Webb Male Humanism Senior Member Joined: 30 January 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1403	Posted: 03 May 2008 at 7:41am
	*Originally posted by Andalus* Jacob stole the blessings from his brother, and God condoned it. That's true, but then "Allah forgives who He wills", right? *Originally posted by Andalus* *Originally posted by Doo-bop* The bottom line is - you have failed to show that the God of the bible ordered, authorised or condoned this lie. Never claimed God ordered it, or authorized, but He did condone it. Condone: To overlook, forgive, or disregard (an offense) without protest or censure. http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry/condone You're right, and I wish I had been more careful in my choice of words in the title of this discussion. Of course Muhammad condoned (as in "forgave") lying on occasion, and so does Allah. What I meant to ask was, did Muhammad ever approve of or advocate lying?
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believer Guest Group Joined: 08 January 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1397	Posted: 05 May 2008 at 2:52pm
	There is more to the story- please read: Genesis 25 29 Once when Jacob was cooking some stew, Esau came in from the open country, famished. 30 He said to Jacob, "Quick, let me have some of that red stew! I'm famished!" (That is why he was also called Edom.) 31 Jacob replied, "First sell me your birthright." 32 "Look, I am about to die," Esau said. "What good is the birthright to me?" 33 But Jacob said, "Swear to me first." So he swore an oath to him, selling his birthright to Jacob. 34 Then Jacob gave Esau some bread and some lentil stew. He ate and drank, and then got up and left. So Esau despised his birthright. GOD chooses the lesser of evils to carry out His plan.
	John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
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Andalus Moderator Group Joined: 12 October 2005 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 1187	Posted: 05 May 2008 at 3:38pm
	*Originally posted by believer* There is more to the story- please read: Genesis 25 29 Once when Jacob was cooking some stew, Esau came in from the open country, famished. 30 He said to Jacob, "Quick, let me have some of that red stew! I'm famished!" (That is why he was also called Edom.) 31 Jacob replied, "First sell me your birthright." 32 "Look, I am about to die," Esau said. "What good is the birthright to me?" 33 But Jacob said, "Swear to me first." So he swore an oath to him, selling his birthright to Jacob. 34 Then Jacob gave Esau some bread and some lentil stew. He ate and drank, and then got up and left. So Esau despised his birthright. GOD chooses the lesser of evils to carry out His plan. I already discussed this in detail in a previous contribution. Please read what I wrote and respond directly. I am not going to repeat myself. Thanks
	A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah http://www.sunnipath.com http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/ http://www.pt-go.com/
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Doo-bop Senior Member Joined: 04 March 2007 Online Status: Offline Posts: 531	Posted: 07 May 2008 at 11:38am
	*Andalus* wrote:- "So, you have only managed to tell me that I was correct, you skipped the the bible's view of Jacob was a poor character who used his brothers hunger and thirst as a means to trick him. You bring up a verse that creates more problems, Gen 27:36 only shows a brother who just had his blessings stolen through a lie, trying to explain to his father that his brother, Jacob, is a liar who wanted to cheat him out of his birthright. (no one in there right mind bu a bible thumping evangelical would believe that Esau actually gave up his land for fod and drink) The context of Gen 25:29-34 is hardly one that tells us that an actual exchange of birthright took place." You simply do not know how to read properly. The statements presented on the page somehow escape you. Genesis 27:36 shows Esau stating that his birthright had already been taken away (not complaining that his liar brother wanted to take it away, but had taken it away). Your comments regarding Genesis 25:29-34 are utterly ridiculous. For instance, v.33 states "and he sold his birthright unto Jacob". v.34 gives the reason - "Esau despised his birthright". And your interpretation of this? - he did not sell his birthright! This - 3) Genesis 27:36-Essau went to fetch meat for his father and receive the blessing a) he forgot he sold it b) he changed his mind c) he really did not sell it as I have already pointed out, shows your total confusion re the story, as you confuse the birthright with the blessing. First of all, Genesis 27:36 does not show Esau going to fetch meat for his father. He has already fetched it by that time, brought it to him, and has been with his father some time already. The three possibilities you posit are ludicrous. How could he forget he sold the blessing when he did not sell it? It was his birthright he sold. Btw, please do not refer to me as a "bible thumper" again. I believe the Holy Bible to be the Word of God. I have already raised objections to this on this thread.... "So we now have a brother, the spiritual successor of Abraham, who is a master liar, as the one who would be called "Israel". A man painted as an effeminate, sniffeling, camp boy, would be Israel! Nice story there boo bop! The deeper you go with trying to defend this immoral story, the more obfuscated you show your book to be. Thanks for you help." Oh please......this is what happens when you get over confident in your own logical ability, Andalus. You start talking rubbish... Effeminate? - substantiate this. Sniveling? - substantiate this. Camp boy? Do you even understand the connotations of the word "camp"? dwelling in tents does not make you "camp". And you make the typical muslim error of assuming that a story containing, and dealing with immorality, is an immoral story...
	"Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world" - John the Baptizer (John 1:29)
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Doo-bop Senior Member Joined: 04 March 2007 Online Status: Offline Posts: 531	Posted: 07 May 2008 at 12:22pm
	*Andalus* wrote:- "I find it amazing that you cannot get your mind around that fact that humans are capable of following the commands of God, and that God would create humans who would be "role models" for the rest of us that the message being preached can also be followed. What is the use of sending a message to mankind when the messenger is more dubious than in character than the best man in the audience? It makes no sense. The idea that we are flawed and incapable of making correct choices is the substandard by product of your theology. " I am unaware of any branch of Christianity which states that, although flawed, we are incapable of making correct choices. "We are not just talking about "any men", we are talking about those who were chosen to reveal a message to mankind. You want to talk about a pizza delivery guy, fine. What we are talking about are *people who were born with the sole destiny of teaching man of God and God's plan."* Jacob, for instance, was not born with any such destiny. (Neither was Abraham, Isaac or Joseph). If you think otherwise, prove it from the Bible. Or is this another quranic overlap you're trying to get me to swallow? "Conjecture. In your mind, if it does not say it, then it must be anyway is your confession of following your ill conceived notions of theology. Job was a man who followed the law. Moses echoes a thesis in opposition to your replacement theology: Deut 30 Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, "Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, "Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" 14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it. By revealing men who were more flawed than many of the audience members, it is so easy to pass off petty excuses for not following the commands of God. Your OT has God telling you that His commands are not too difficult." Hmmm.... have you been sneaking a go at my crack pipe? I think you have.. otherwise why are you talking about Job? I haven't been, I was talking about Joseph. Joseph did not follow the law, nor did Jacob, nor did Isaac, nor did Abraham. They all died before the law was even given.... "I wish you fellow American Christians were as forth coming. They seem to forget that the Israelis persecute Arab Christians as well." I wasn't making a big point about this, as it's off-topic, but didn't the phrase "muslim occupied Judea-Samaria" give you a little clue? I hold muslims responsible for the deprivations of christian people (which are many and varied) in muslim-ruled areas, or even just in muslim-majority areas
	"Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world" - John the Baptizer (John 1:29)
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Doo-bop Senior Member Joined: 04 March 2007 Online Status: Offline Posts: 531	Posted: 07 May 2008 at 1:16pm
	"Condone: To overlook, forgive, or disregard (an offense) without protest or censure. http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry/condone" I would say this is very poor. If you condone a thing then why forgive it? forgiving something clearly implies that you know it to be wrong, and yet forgive it. Forgiving something clearly implies you do not condone it. "No one has argued that deception is not a part of war. You are an idiot if you truly believe that deception in wartime is immoral. Intellgence and counter-intelligence has been used since the days of Moses, for the sake of war. In war there is killing, like whan Jesus, according to your bible, gave the order to "kill" children. So, no, not enough said, only you trying real hard to handwave your irrational, delusional views away." So once again you are merely confirming what has been said. Muhammad/Allah has clearly ordered muslims to fight, go to war and shed blood. War, they say, is deception. Therefore muslims have been ordered to deceive. Christians, on the other hand, have not been ordered to fight, go to war, or shed blood for any reason. Commands to the nation of Israel in this respect are not valid for us, for reasons I've been over already (we are not the nation of Israel, not living under the mosaic covenant, and do not have a land to conquer or defend)
	"Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world" - John the Baptizer (John 1:29)
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Andalus Moderator Group Joined: 12 October 2005 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 1187	Posted: 07 May 2008 at 2:57pm
	*Originally posted by Doo-bop* Andalus wrote:- "So, you have only managed to tell me that I was correct, you skipped the the bible's view of Jacob was a poor character who used his brothers hunger and thirst as a means to trick him. You bring up a verse that creates more problems, Gen 27:36 only shows a brother who just had his blessings stolen through a lie, trying to explain to his father that his brother, Jacob, is a liar who wanted to cheat him out of his birthright. (no one in there right mind bu a bible thumping evangelical would believe that Esau actually gave up his land for fod and drink) The context of Gen 25:29-34 is hardly one that tells us that an actual exchange of birthright took place." You simply do not know how to read properly. The statements presented on the page somehow escape you. Genesis 27:36 shows Esau stating that his birthright had already been taken away (not complaining that his liar brother wanted to take it away, but had taken it away). Your comments regarding Genesis 25:29-34 are utterly ridiculous. For instance, v.33 states "and he sold his birthright unto Jacob". v.34 gives the reason - "Esau despised his birthright". And your interpretation of this? - he did not sell his birthright! This - 3) Genesis 27:36-Essau went to fetch meat for his father and receive the blessing a) he forgot he sold it b) he changed his mind c) he really did not sell it as I have already pointed out, shows your total confusion re the story, as you confuse the birthright with the blessing. First of all, Genesis 27:36 does not show Esau going to fetch meat for his father. He has already fetched it by that time, brought it to him, and has been with his father some time already. The three possibilities you posit are ludicrous. How could he forget he sold the blessing when he did not sell it? It was his birthright he sold. Btw, please do not refer to me as a "bible thumper" again. I believe the Holy Bible to be the Word of God. I have already raised objections to this on this thread.... *Originally posted by Andalus* Please put us all out of your intellectual misery. The confusion is that you lack even the basic skills of critical thinking to actually understand what I gave you. The choices were possible, not probable, as a means to make a rational conclusion. Forgive me for giving you the benefit of doubt that you were capable of reading and discerning above high school freshman work. I will, in the future, spell things out mush more simple for you. Would this help? How can he forget? Easy! He did not actually sell anything and simply wanted to eat. Not one but you and your theology would actually believe that someone would "really" sell their birthright for their thirst to be quenched. The real issue is how pathetic your bible makes Jacob look. *Originally posted by DooBop* "So we now have a brother, the spiritual successor of Abraham, who is a master liar, as the one who would be called "<ST1:COUNTRY-REGIoN w:st="on">Israel</ST1:COUNTRY-REGIoN>". A man painted as an effeminate, sniffeling, camp boy, would be Israel! Nice story there boo bop! The deeper you go with trying to defend this immoral story, the more obfuscated you show your book to be. Thanks for you help." Oh please......this is what happens when you get over confident in your own logical ability, Andalus. You start talking rubbish... Not rubbish, "Fact". Does not your bible bible paint Jacob as a sniffeling mother's camp boy who has to use tricks and bad manners to fulfill the "wise counsel" of your biblical God? Yes or no? The story says yes. *Originally posted by DooBop* Effeminate? - substantiate this. Sniveling? - substantiate this. Camp boy? Do you even understand the connotations of the word "camp"? dwelling in tents does not make you "camp". And you make the typical muslim error of assuming that a story containing, and dealing with immorality, is an immoral story... I did substantiate it. It is written in your bible, that you yourself have quoted. The same verses. Play obtuse, whine, complain, cry about how unfair I am being, the fact remains what is written within your own "book of God", to fulfill your "God's Wise counsel". A camp boy? Thats the boy who is too effeminate to go out and do man's work, the boy who stays home with momma and does her bidding, who has to sneak and steal for your "Mighty God's Wise Counsel", who uses his own brother's thrist from a days work to try and trick him into giving up his birthright. Nice story doo bop! Edited by Andalus - 07 May 2008 at 10:34pm
	A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah http://www.sunnipath.com http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/ http://www.pt-go.com/
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Doo-bop Senior Member Joined: 04 March 2007 Online Status: Offline Posts: 531	Posted: 08 May 2008 at 9:42am
	*Andalus* wrote:- "How can he forget? Easy! He did not actually sell anything and simply wanted to eat. Not one but you and your theology would actually believe that someone would "really" sell their birthright for their thirst to be quenched. The real issue is how pathetic your bible makes Jacob look." Once again, the facts seem to have passed you by. Perhaps that is your fate. Esau sold his birthright to Jacob (Genesis 25:33). Why? (and this is what you cannot get your head round) because he despised it (Genesis 25:34). This is not down to me, or my "theology", it is what the text says. But that is precisely what you are trying to get us to doubt, or so it seems. And why? Because your Muhammad seemed to think that Jacob was a prophet whose sole purpose (how did you detail it?) was to convey to mankind the will of God (or something like that) heheh, he obviously hadn't read the story, had he? Of course not, he couldn't read (allegedly) I don't know why you seem to hate Jacob so much. I know he was a liar and a deceiver, but why are you adding such things as "effeminate", "sniveling", "camp"? You have not substantiated any of this! This is your fantasy world kicking in despite yourself! Is "liar" and "deceiver" not enough? Actually, I don't know why you muslims seem to hate Jacob so much. He was bad in his early years, that is true, but as for calling him "pathetic", well, I think Esau was even more pathetic, because he despised his birth right. And Jacob would have made a really good muslim, let's face it. Muslims have been ordered to go to war, and war, according to Muhammad, is deceit. And Jacob was a deceiver.....
	"Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world" - John the Baptizer (John 1:29)
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