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Islam for non-Muslims
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Warriorofelyon
 
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Quote Warriorofelyon Replybullet Posted: 29 February 2008 at 9:14pm
Originally posted by poga

dear

Warriorofelyon

you believe creator and the creation are unified

we believe they are separate

ALLAH Say's he is wise so is his wisdom is created or uncreated

it is uncreated because it is part of him

similarly ALLAH in order to show his love he created love within the creation

love within the creation is created feeling of the creature

you say can we influence feelings of ALLAH

as i said on above post we by love or hate we cannot influence ALLAH

but ALLAH is the RAHMANUR RAHIM during our suffering we cry to ALLAH through the wisdom he taught us through his prophets so we may receive his compassion

but as we are the creation we also have wisdom we also have love and emotion

does this makes us part of the creator

no because our love and emotion are within the bound of the creation

we from the creation now cannot say because ALLAH is love ALLAH is AQL therefore love and knowledge are ALLAH

this are ALLAH'S quality

Like diamond with glitter the glitter is the quality of diamond but is not the diamond

as for SANSKRIT it is the language of aryans if you want learn more about beget or begotten or what ever go to them



Poga,

I DO NOT believe the Creator and creation are unified....what makes you think this?

I realize what Sanskrit is... I have spent a great deal of time reading through the Vedas...Bahgvadgita...etc... However...it would be ENTIRELY foolish to look to SANSKRIT to INTERPET GREEK!!! The concepts of beget are RADICALLY different in the two cultural contexts. This would be like studying Italian in order to "better" understand a Ford pickup owners manual in english...it would make no sense...

Also, JESUS CHRIST WAS NOT BEGOTTEN!! That is in any paternal sense...THERE IS NOT ONE SINGLE TEXT THAT STATES THAT HE WAS IN SCRIPTURE...

So, in the name of Academic honesty please DO NOT accuse me of this anymore unless you have some proof that orthodox Christians believe such a doctrine...

That means you would need to find a proposition such as that within out primary texts.
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Warriorofelyon
 
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Quote Warriorofelyon Replybullet Posted: 29 February 2008 at 9:16pm
Originally posted by rami

Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem

Do the 99 beautiful names, including those referencing the Love of Allah, describe who Allah is?

Yes they do that is why they where revealed to us, a better translation would the 99 attributes of allah and these are just the main ones they are not limited to 99 we know of a lot more. They describe his being or nature or essence if you like and help us understand how he may possible act towards us.

If love is not created...that is the spiritual aspect of love...(I agree by the way)...then love is eternal in that sense is it not?

as an action then yes, man himself is created he has a beginning and an end but the knowledge about how to create man is eternal since allahs knowledge does not increase or decrease....does that make sense its a very tricky subject.

So love would have existed with Allah but the act could not have been carried out until the object of that love was created.

So I guess what I am asking is this...prior to creation could Allah be described as loving or compassionate...etc...from the 99 names...or are they contingent upon the existence of the created order?

Yes if what you mean by love and compassion is righteousness and morality, since he is Al-`Alξ: The Highest and this is in terms of moral perfection, he wasnt at one point Evil then decided to be Good he was always morally superior al Ali the highest.

regarding the explanation of al Ali in terms of rank, rank is referring to moral excellence or perfection as no other rank counts with allah. Our closenesses to Allah is Dependant upon our moral perfection in relation to his other creations. Angels have a higher rank than all of creation except for humans [in general] and this is in terms of piousness.

Otherwise what is there to Love or be compassionate towards if creation is not created yet, you seem to be asking the same question as before but in a different way. It seems you are trying imagine him in terms of a feeling or emotion he isn't a ball of love that exists

There is reason and cause.


As understand Jehovah in the bible, He is love...that is to say one could describe His essence with the word Love

But in reality what is meant here is moral perfection and beauty this is what it is eluding to otherwise what is the significance  of simply loving he didn't create creation so he would have something to love he is not in need.

maybe something is being lost in translation or the context is missing?

because all love flows from Him.

i don't think this is correct as some people love some very twisted things, i think you have to qualify that statement such as pure love or righteous love that differentiates it from the twisted things people tend to love.

Without Him love would not exist...etc...so in His being (ontology) there is love...not in some composite sense...

i think love here is also synonymous with other qualities that give a sense of the type of love or the aim or objective of that love. "Allah is beautiful and loves beautiful things" [saying from the Quran i think]that has a wide range of meaning from the beauty of nature to moral beauty in our actions self sacrifice etc i don't think there is love in and of itself otherwise you would simply be talking about an emotion a feeling and that is all.

No feeling can exist in and of itself, look at the nature of man he needs motivation to feel and if creation has the slightest bit of likeness to Allah then we know from this, feeling [regardless of what type] needs a reason to be felt.


In order for him to love without taking something new upon himself would not love need to be to some degree...part of who he is? If not, then by "choosing" to love us, would he not be changing his mind? Or choosing to indulge in something foreign to him? Taking on a new aspect or relation not previously existing in his nature?

I understand what you are getting at since him deciding to love doesn't that change his nature?

I would say no because his nature is his qualities [99 attributes] him applying his qualities to creation is not changing his nature but deciding to act upon those Qualities they are two seperate things, Nature/being/essence/ontology and action.

Part of my thinking I believe revolves around the idea of Allah "feeling." You "feel" something based stimuli outside yourself. So if Allah is not changed by his creation would it be better for me to understand his "feeling" as...this...He is by definition the necessary being of love...therefore, when he loves...he is not making a choice to "feel" something based upon anything outside himself...but rather in his sovereign righteousness he is sharing what he already has "love" with his creation?

You are going back to assuming the way he feels is the same way as we do, allah is the source of love as you said, he is also the source of mercy, Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem, in the name of Allah the most gracious the source of mercy.

How is he the source of these things in what way does he pour it down on us like rain or bring it down on us like a cloud. How it is for us and occurs in Us is not the same for him its just a small likeness nothing more.

i am out of time at the moment so insha allah we will have to continue the discussion another time.



I think I am getting a much clearer picture of where you are coming from.

I myself am out of time and will probably be unable to reply to anything until Sunday.

I have enjoyed our discussion and I hope to resume it Sunday.

Thanks
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poga
 
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Quote poga Replybullet Posted: 29 February 2008 at 10:58pm

warrior

before i answer any more of your question

i like to ask you one question

question is very simple please tell me what is the gender of love

also i like to let you know i lack any formal education therefore i struggle writing in prose because i lack the knowledge of grammar and punctuation marks

but here i was forced to write in prose and that was mistake from my part so from now on back to poetry

Mrs Be Aql Khan Usta : To me Mathematics of love is dote on
To you Mathematics of love is devotion
To me love is kinship
To you love is worship
Between us river of love flows as watch as two embankment
None of is lover here we are just two dead still strangers
Fighting the common enemy the live flowing current

awal
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poga
 
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Quote poga Replybullet Posted: 14 March 2008 at 10:31am

Originally posted by Warriorofelyon

Hello,

I am writing a Master's thesis discussing the Islamic view of God. This includes a discussion of the Christian understanding of the Trinity compared to how Muslim theologians understand it. I would like to be as fair and accurate as possible.

Would anyone have any suggestions regarding Islamic texts that could be used the represent the Asharite theological school?

Thanks!

SWEETSWORDS 54 [ Episemological model of ILM ]

BISMILLAH

3 - 2 - 1 - 1 + 2 + 3 + 5 + 8 

Poga Humayun Dundiwala

At the beginning ALLAH created a number
Then expanded it to be the cubical chamber
With weighted dark soul as its papyrus heart
And NURANI ink as the mind to illuminate its glowing art

At the beginning ALLAH created a dot
Then expanded it with lines to be the MAHABOT
With its first dimensional seed and Second dimensional shoot
And third dimensional branch he created one cubical botanical boot


At the beginning ALLAH created one hero masculine number
Then divided it with his zero feminine member
With theirs Alif eructed phallus phi and pi circular vaginal sea
Waves was created as the sonar seed of every tree

Poga Say's in a Foolington Maze

At the beginning
The self within this surrounding
Asks who created me and the SANSAR
And finds him self in the trinity of creature creation and the creator
And from this trinity he chooses the path of informative duality between question and answer
It is here in the dual Path of Tariqath
The creature detaches him self from the creation and gains the creators Ilm E Marrifath
And unifies him self with the final one
And declares everything is GOD and be comes BE IMAN
This is the stage of FANAFILLAH
The cursed station where everything is ALLAH
From there only thing that can save him is another one
To ask what is the root cause of this creation
Because the self knows and testifies he is not the only creation there are many like him
And through process of opening the knots and binding the ties he find the rope of MUHAMMAD SALLEL LA HU ALAHI WA SALLIM
And ascends in the Fibonacci sequence of three two one one and two
He understands this three dimensional Duniya and its octagonal RUH
But this are only five out of eight Illuminating information
From the Islamic Ilm E Marrifa without limitation

Mr Barzakh Fitrath Ullah : The Setting of SANSAR
The Self within the Surrounding Sustained by the Sustainer
It as simple as the fuel and the flame
And the by product of light what glows with its creators name
It as simple as the provider and the provision and the consumer and the by product
The four living and dead conduct for the single resurrect
These are the reality of cosmic dust and aquatic muck
It is the reality of the fabricated filthy Duniya and reality pure true HAQQ
The four reality darkness and four of light
The hot moving fire dying to be alive and bright
Four of darkness the non emotional feel
The silence darkness dead cold still
It as simple as the Niche the Lamp and the Oil and the NOOR UN ALA NOOR
It As simple as the pious feeder with pure food sustaining natural hungry consumer for the by product of filthy manure
It as simple as the Niche represents the sustainer and the Lamp represents the diner
The Oil is the pure food and the fire is the filthy shiner
The filthy crystal the shining mud
The by product of the NOOR and the WATER the MEN with the meat bone and blood
It is here we learn the setting of the space and distance what came about by the light
But this light came about by the olive TREE what is without distance and direction but with sound and sight
It is the TREE what begets all time matter space and sound therefore it is the wooden KURSI
The seven heaven the seven oceans all the Duniya are all branches of that cosmological TREE
It is when we learn this TREE is the NIECHE what begets all east west all the distance and all the direction
Yet even this KURSI is also within the ARSH the Divine THRONE
And it is ALLAH who occupys the ARSH by his might
Nothing can reach him Because KURSI is the PARDAH what captures all the direction all hearing all the sight
Only the limit mortal can go to is up to the KURSI
Therefore he who Say's he can reach ALLAH without KURSI he is committing the heresy
Nothing can reach ALLAH without the KURSI but ALLAH can come to whom he will
Because without ALLAH nothing can go anywhere all will remain standstill
Therefore setting is thus
The driver the passenger the patrol and the omnibus
They drive on
By the boat of armageddon
Through the route of the MUHAMMADAN KURSI
Toward the ALLAH'S THRONE
They drive on
Toward the front of pure burn offerings with the filth of backward radiation

 



Edited by poga
awal
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layalee
 
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Quote layalee Replybullet Posted: 22 March 2008 at 11:16pm
is the word 'love' stated anywhere in the Quran?
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layalee
 
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Quote layalee Replybullet Posted: 22 March 2008 at 11:21pm

i have a habit of asking questions then finding weblinks that can answer my question... sorry..

but here is a interesting weblink that provides the view of love in many ayats in the Quran

http://www.answering-islam.de/Main/Quran/Themes/love.htm

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minuteman
 
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Quote minuteman Replybullet Posted: 24 March 2008 at 2:58am

 

 Al Quran 3:31: (O prophet) Say (to the people), "If you love Allah then follow me. You will become the beloved of Allah. He will forgive you your sins..."

 The above verse tells that God loves mankind. It is the love that solves problems, not the hatred.

If any one is bad some one must suffer
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minuteman
 
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Quote minuteman Replybullet Posted: 29 March 2008 at 11:05pm
Originally posted by layalee

i have a habit of asking questions then finding weblinks that can answer my question... sorry..

but here is a interesting weblink that provides the view of love in many ayats in the Quran

http://www.answering-islam.de/Main/Quran/Themes/love.htm

 Layalee, very good, I have followed the link and found that information about love very useful. Specially, one name (attribute)  of Allah is "Al-Wadud" the loving One. Thanks.

If any one is bad some one must suffer
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