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rami
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Quote rami Replybullet Posted: 29 February 2008 at 8:52am
Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem

So would you say Allah has always "loved".....

No, before Allah created anything what was there to love. Love needs an object and unlike Humans who can love for no reason at all [not saying all love is like that] Allah loves for a reason he can choose to love and not to love.

As I understand Jehovah... His love is greater than I can understand...just as you have described Allah...

Jehovah and Allah are different names for the same God, similarly to how you would say the God of the christians is the same God as the jews even though you would consider the jewish understand of god, a monothiestic one like ours, to be different than yours.

Men think differently than women for various reasons such as our physical make up [estrogen and testosterone], our upbringing what we like or feel comfertable with [men cars, women family] basically our minds work differently becouse we are different.

Allah does not think the way men or women do becouse his perspective and view of creation and humans is diferent from ours imagine being consiously aware of trillions upon trillions upon trillions of creatuers all at the same time now imagine being able to see history or time not in a chronological order as we do day after day, month after month, year after year but every day in history, every year in history, decade, centruty, millenium every moment in time all at the same time for all of creation and what is in it.

from this alone we know we are not dealing with something we can ever attribute any likeness to, our scholars say his creation contains the lightest possible fingerprint of likeness to Allah but that is all.

He has allowed us to love [among other things] so we know him but our love is not like his love.

He can love a person wholy or something about a person he is in absolute control which is in stark contrast to how humans love. When we love, for us to increase the strength of that love or connection we let go of our selfs and what we know and everything about us, we become blind to the object of our love we stop seeing faults in the person and everything they touch is magic [as the song says] but the persons faults in reality are there becouse after all we are human. So if you want to know how Allah loves understand what love is and take away all forms of weakness and imperfection from it and you will begin to understand.

I guess where my confusion comes in is this...If Allah is not "Love" in his essence....I mean...If love does not describe him per se....

Love does not describe anything, can you think of a single example?
You can love strongly and place your love for something above certain things which would normaly cause a person not to love but no thing Is love.

But instead love is a "thing" chose to "feel"... here is my question...

IF love is a thing did Allah create it?

No he did not create it, i used the word thing simply to seperate it from Allahs essance not to imply it is created or has form.

For humans love has a physical or rather chemical aspect [not saying love is simply a chemical reaction but part of it is] so i suppose that part for us is created but the spiritual aspect in which you are looked on favourably, tolerated more, forgiven more easily, your weaknesses are looked pased, your company is enjoyed and sought after as well as other things that is not created becouse to say it is created is to say allahs knowledge is not complete and it increases.

He has knowledge of all things, he does not change, he does not increase in anything or decrease in anything.

A man came to the prophet and said: "O Messenger of Allah, direct me to an act which, if I do it, [will cause] Allah to love me and people to love me." He said: "Renounce the world and Allah will love you, and renounce what people possess and people will love you."


If a person can Gain Allahs love then we know from this it is something He decides to give he doesnt fall in love.

here is another example indicating that a person draws near step by step until he reaches a point where allah decides to love him.

Allah the Almighty has said: "Who soever shows enmity to a friend of Mine, I shall be at war with him. My servant does not draw near to Me with anything more loved by Me than the religious duties I have imposed upon him, and My servant continues to draw near to Me with supererogatory works so that I shall love him. When I love him I am his hearing with which he hears, his seeing with which he sees, his hand with which he strikes, and his foot with which he walks. Were he to ask [something] of Me, I would surely give it to him and were he to ask Me for refuge, I would surely grant him it."


Another good example,

If Allah has loved a servant [of His] He calls Gabriel (on whom be peace) and says: I love So-and-so, therefore love him.  He (the Prophet pbuh) said: So Gabriel loves him.  Then he (Gabriel) calls out in heaven, saying:  Allah loves So-and-so, therefore love him.  And the inhabitants of heaven love him.  He (the Prophet pbuh) said: Then acceptance is established for him on earth.  And if Allah has abhorred a servant [of His], He calls Gabriel and says: I abhor So-and-so, therefore abhor him.  So Gabriel abhors him.  Then Gabriel calls out to the inhabitants of heaven: Allah abhors So-and-so, therefore abhor him.  He (the Prophet pbuh) said: So they abhor him, and abhorrence is established for him on earth.

he finds aceptance with his lord, notice how the angels behave they choose to love who allah loves and choose to adhore whom allah adhores, the rationale may seem cold but it should only indicate absolute control becouse once love is established for someone those beutifull qualities that we know about love are there as well, it is very apparant in the second hadith i quoted above "
When I love him I am his hearing with which he hears, his seeing with which he sees, his hand with which he strikes, and his foot with which he walks"

Not many things are described as beutifully as this, the closness between Allah and the one he loves.

If he is beyond comparison or weakness in reference to his creation...would not "feeling" be a weakness?

No becouse you automatically associate feeling with weakness and moral coruption i.e a person will do anything for there loved ones even kill for example. People display self control to differing degrees some people will not kill or steal or do anything illegal but others would. Imagine "feeling" without need as need for that feeling and lack of control will drive you to certain things, so not being in need removes the element of weakness.

Ontological love would be eternal love and therefore outside the realm of "feeling" because it is literally who Allah is....

Since love needs an object [humans] and that object is not eternal but created how
can Ontological love exist. once the object was created then you can choose to love it otherwise who is eternally being loved?

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/love


notice how in all these examples there is an object being loved.

if that doesnt make sence you may have to clarify what you mean by ontological love its a new term to me.

Because if I understand Tawhid correctly...perhaps I do not... Then how could Allah who is absolutely "one" take upon himself any "thing" or attribute that is not eternally who he is?

love is not a thing but is more in line with being an action. Also what do you mean by take upon himself, Allah also takes many other actions creation itself was an action he decided to do see my example above of allah "deciding" to love someone when at one point in time he didnt love them.

To often evangelicals make assumptions regarding Muslims that are not true!

that's why there called evangelicans becouse they are evangelical

You will have to excuse Poga he is eccentric to say the least.
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
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Quote Warriorofelyon Replybullet Posted: 29 February 2008 at 9:20am
I appreciate your well thought out response.

That helps...

I guess I am still not quite grasping a few concepts...

I realize Allah does not take upon himself anything...because as you have stated he does not change...

So after reading what you have said here is my question...

Do the 99 beautiful names, including those referencing the Love of Allah, describe who Allah is?

If love is not created...that is the spiritual aspect of love...(I agree by the way)...then love is eternal in that sense is it not? So I guess what I am asking is this...prior to creation could Allah be described as loving or compassionate...etc...from the 99 names...or are they contingent upon the existence of the created order?

By ontological love I mean this...

As understand Jehovah in the bible, He is love...that is to say one could describe His essence with the word Love because all love flows from Him. Without Him love would not exist...etc...so in His being (ontology) there is love...not in some composite sense...

Also, if Allah has chosen to love us...or those who follow him...
Then my question is this...

In order for him to love without taking something new upon himself would not love need to be to some degree...part of who he is? If not, then by "choosing" to love us, would he not be changing his mind? Or choosing to indulge in something foreign to him? Taking on a new aspect or relation not previously existing in his nature?

Part of my thinking I believe revolves around the idea of Allah "feeling." You "feel" something based stimuli outside yourself. So if Allah is not changed by his creation would it be better for me to understand his "feeling" as...this...He is by definition the necessary being of love...therefore, when he loves...he is not making a choice to "feel" something based upon anything outside himself...but rather in his sovereign righteousness he is sharing what he already has "love" with his creation?


Edited by Warriorofelyon
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Quote poga Replybullet Posted: 29 February 2008 at 10:38am
Originally posted by Warriorofelyon

Originally posted by poga

Originally posted by Warriorofelyon

So....just like the God of the Bible then...He is Love....eternally..correct?

Sorry....the imagery of love is something I think is vital....

imagery of love in BIBLE is vital because BIBLE is pornography

imagine god and Mary

or god and Sara

in AL QURAN no imagination is needed and yet it is very vital like guiding voice of ALLAH and lost humanity

 



1. If you are referencing "beget" as pornography...then you are mistaken my friend. "Beget" is NOT the accurate translation of the Greek work Monogenes' which means one of a kind or unique. It has NOTHING to do with biological paternity...

2. You still have not answered my question poga....
Would this mean that Allah is love much like the Bible calls Jehovah love... Since his attributes are eternal...love would "describe" him to some degree...By that I mean he did not "love" after he created man but because his "love" is eternal he is eternally a "loving" God?

Does that make sense?

if want linguist go to DEAF and DUMB and learn about SANSKRIT OM

you say bore or beget or what ever we take your FALSE meaning that you say Jesus is son of GOD

we say the TRUTH there is only one ALLAH without father mother son or daughter and sister and brothers

love is emotion as like hate

in love we like the lovely feeling because it feels good

 in hate we abhor this because it feels bad

so if ALLAH is love so he will hate what is not love

if so then if we do very hate filled acts then through this action we can hurt ALLAH'S feeling

and if we can hurt someone then maybe we can hurt him so much that we can KILL him

no this all lie god is all love is the preaching of Christian monastic mice's

and through them it came in to ISLAM by the Sufiswines

As you say you want to do MASTERS  but i say first learn to be STUDENT

And Know ALLAH is not LOVE nor ALLAH is HATE but ALLAH is he created all emotions

i also like to take this opportunity to share with you mentioning name of my beloved

here it is bellow

The loving AL WADUD my loving mood my tear and laughter fear and depression
The loving AL WADUD my loving mood my passion and my affection

The loving AL WADUD my loving mood my bad and good
My Loving AL WADUD my prayer and despair my image and impression
My loving AL WADUD my loving mood My sensibility and sensation

The loving AL WADUD my beloved Mahmud my bad and good
My even and odd my beloved my MUHAMMAD
Sallel la hu alahi wa sallim
Blessed is my beloved he is the RAHMAT of RAHMANUR RAHIM

from SWEETSWORDS 32 [ Monad 11 ]



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Quote poga Replybullet Posted: 29 February 2008 at 10:53am

dear RAMI you said

IF love is a thing did Allah create it?

No he did not create it, i used the word thing simply to seperate it from Allahs essance not to imply it is created or has form.

Fitrath Nafs Aql and Ruh

this are all created essence

love and hate develops from NAFS

this are emotions ALLAH created for ADAM and JINN

Angels are free from emotions

all emotions are natural conditions of nature

ALLAH is free from all conditions he creates conditions and degree for all his creations

it is better for all of us if we have to place any attribute on ALLAH

if we are not 100% sure then just say i do not know and thats it

who say we have to know everything



Edited by poga
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Quote Warriorofelyon Replybullet Posted: 29 February 2008 at 12:29pm
Originally posted by poga

Originally posted by Warriorofelyon

Originally posted by poga

Originally posted by Warriorofelyon

So....just like the God of the Bible then...He is Love....eternally..correct?

Sorry....the imagery of love is something I think is vital....

imagery of love in BIBLE is vital because BIBLE is pornography

imagine god and Mary

or god and Sara

in AL QURAN no imagination is needed and yet it is very vital like guiding voice of ALLAH and lost humanity

 



1. If you are referencing "beget" as pornography...then you are mistaken my friend. "Beget" is NOT the accurate translation of the Greek work Monogenes' which means one of a kind or unique. It has NOTHING to do with biological paternity...

2. You still have not answered my question poga....
Would this mean that Allah is love much like the Bible calls Jehovah love... Since his attributes are eternal...love would "describe" him to some degree...By that I mean he did not "love" after he created man but because his "love" is eternal he is eternally a "loving" God?

Does that make sense?

if want linguist go to DEAF and DUMB and learn about SANSKRIT OM

you say bore or beget or what ever we take your FALSE meaning that you say Jesus is son of GOD

we say the TRUTH there is only one ALLAH without father mother son or daughter and sister and brothers

love is emotion as like hate

in love we like the lovely feeling because it feels good

 in hate we abhor this because it feels bad

so if ALLAH is love so he will hate what is not love

if so then if we do very hate filled acts then through this action we can hurt ALLAH'S feeling

and if we can hurt someone then maybe we can hurt him so much that we can KILL him

no this all lie god is all love is the preaching of Christian monastic mice's

and through them it came in to ISLAM by the Sufiswines

As you say you want to do MASTERS  but i say first learn to be STUDENT

And Know ALLAH is not LOVE nor ALLAH is HATE but ALLAH is he created all emotions

i also like to take this opportunity to share with you mentioning name of my beloved

here it is bellow

The loving AL WADUD my loving mood my tear and laughter fear and depression
The loving AL WADUD my loving mood my passion and my affection

The loving AL WADUD my loving mood my bad and good
My Loving AL WADUD my prayer and despair my image and impression
My loving AL WADUD my loving mood My sensibility and sensation

The loving AL WADUD my beloved Mahmud my bad and good
My even and odd my beloved my MUHAMMAD
Sallel la hu alahi wa sallim
Blessed is my beloved he is the RAHMAT of RAHMANUR RAHIM

from SWEETSWORDS 32 [ Monad 11 ]



Hey Poga,

I appreciate your posts....

Although I am still not sure where you are going...

Earlier you stated that love it eternal in Allah...

Now you say it is created and Allah engages in it...

Which is it?

I do not know of anyone within Christian orthodoxy that preaches that God is ALL love... The Bible clearly states that He is the NECESSARY being from which love originates...but that He also punishes...etc...

Are you saying Allah's feelings are influenced by the created order?

Are you now saying your previous statement is wrong about love being eternal and that you now believe it is created?

If it is created are you saying that Allah chooses to engage this created emotion or take it upon himself?

I'm confused...

Also...what do you mean about Sanskrit?

I'm not sure what you are accusing me of regarding linguistic roots for "beget"....monogenes does not have anything to do with paternity...

We do NOT believe that Jehovah physically father JEsus....

Son is the title of His relation status in the Godhead. It does not describe biological paternity.


Edited by Warriorofelyon
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Quote poga Replybullet Posted: 29 February 2008 at 2:17pm
dear

Warriorofelyon

you believe creator and the creation are unified

we believe they are separate

ALLAH Say's he is wise so is his wisdom is created or uncreated

it is uncreated because it is part of him

similarly ALLAH in order to show his love he created love within the creation

love within the creation is created feeling of the creature

you say can we influence feelings of ALLAH

as i said on above post we by love or hate we cannot influence ALLAH

but ALLAH is the RAHMANUR RAHIM during our suffering we cry to ALLAH through the wisdom he taught us through his prophets so we may receive his compassion

but as we are the creation we also have wisdom we also have love and emotion

does this makes us part of the creator

no because our love and emotion are within the bound of the creation

we from the creation now cannot say because ALLAH is love ALLAH is AQL therefore love and knowledge are ALLAH

this are ALLAH'S quality

Like diamond with glitter the glitter is the quality of diamond but is not the diamond

as for SANSKRIT it is the language of aryans if you want learn more about beget or begotten or what ever go to them



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Quote rami Replybullet Posted: 29 February 2008 at 7:21pm
Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem

Fitrath Nafs Aql and Ruh

this are all created essence

we are talking about things that both Humans and Allah share not things that are simply applicable to humans alone. im assuming by Aql you mean mind or brain and not intelligence.

love and hate develops from NAFS

for HUMANS they do yes but not all love does. to say all love is from the ego [nafs] is ignorant is love for allah from the nafs?.

this are emotions ALLAH created for ADAM and JINN

No since these emotions as allah knows them do not simply apply to humans and Jinn they apply to all of creation and we are the last to be created not the first, Allah certainly loves his Angels and he certainly loves creation or he would not have created it.

Angels are free from emotions.

And i just Quoted 3 hadith Qudsi saying allah loves and angels love. You are forgetting the whole point of my argument, the WHOLE point of my post is to say Allah loves diferently than humans do and he has no weakness or imperfection so how on earth can you sit there and and say no there is only one kind of love, human, and that is it.

all emotions are natural conditions of nature.

Not when they apply to Allah and not according to Islam, "The hearts of the believers are between the two fingers of Allah he turns them which ever way he likes".

ALLAH is free from all conditions he creates conditions and degree for all his creations

have you not understood a word i have said?

it is better for all of us if we have to place any attribute on ALLAH

if we are not 100% sure then just say i do not know and thats it

who say we have to know everything

And you are 100% certain about what you just said? subhanahllah.



Edited by rami
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
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Quote rami Replybullet Posted: 29 February 2008 at 8:14pm
Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem

Do the 99 beautiful names, including those referencing the Love of Allah, describe who Allah is?

Yes they do that is why they where revealed to us, a better translation would the 99 attributes of allah and these are just the main ones they are not limited to 99 we know of a lot more. They describe his being or nature or essence if you like and help us understand how he may possible act towards us.

If love is not created...that is the spiritual aspect of love...(I agree by the way)...then love is eternal in that sense is it not?

as an action then yes, man himself is created he has a beginning and an end but the knowledge about how to create man is eternal since allahs knowledge does not increase or decrease....does that make sense its a very tricky subject.

So love would have existed with Allah but the act could not have been carried out until the object of that love was created.

So I guess what I am asking is this...prior to creation could Allah be described as loving or compassionate...etc...from the 99 names...or are they contingent upon the existence of the created order?

Yes if what you mean by love and compassion is righteousness and morality, since he is Al-`Alξ: The Highest and this is in terms of moral perfection, he wasnt at one point Evil then decided to be Good he was always morally superior al Ali the highest.

regarding the explanation of al Ali in terms of rank, rank is referring to moral excellence or perfection as no other rank counts with allah. Our closenesses to Allah is Dependant upon our moral perfection in relation to his other creations. Angels have a higher rank than all of creation except for humans [in general] and this is in terms of piousness.

Otherwise what is there to Love or be compassionate towards if creation is not created yet, you seem to be asking the same question as before but in a different way. It seems you are trying imagine him in terms of a feeling or emotion he isn't a ball of love that exists

There is reason and cause.


As understand Jehovah in the bible, He is love...that is to say one could describe His essence with the word Love

But in reality what is meant here is moral perfection and beauty this is what it is eluding to otherwise what is the significance  of simply loving he didn't create creation so he would have something to love he is not in need.

maybe something is being lost in translation or the context is missing?

because all love flows from Him.

i don't think this is correct as some people love some very twisted things, i think you have to qualify that statement such as pure love or righteous love that differentiates it from the twisted things people tend to love.

Without Him love would not exist...etc...so in His being (ontology) there is love...not in some composite sense...

i think love here is also synonymous with other qualities that give a sense of the type of love or the aim or objective of that love. "Allah is beautiful and loves beautiful things" [saying from the Quran i think]that has a wide range of meaning from the beauty of nature to moral beauty in our actions self sacrifice etc i don't think there is love in and of itself otherwise you would simply be talking about an emotion a feeling and that is all.

No feeling can exist in and of itself, look at the nature of man he needs motivation to feel and if creation has the slightest bit of likeness to Allah then we know from this, feeling [regardless of what type] needs a reason to be felt.


In order for him to love without taking something new upon himself would not love need to be to some degree...part of who he is? If not, then by "choosing" to love us, would he not be changing his mind? Or choosing to indulge in something foreign to him? Taking on a new aspect or relation not previously existing in his nature?

I understand what you are getting at since him deciding to love doesn't that change his nature?

I would say no because his nature is his qualities [99 attributes] him applying his qualities to creation is not changing his nature but deciding to act upon those Qualities they are two seperate things, Nature/being/essence/ontology and action.

Part of my thinking I believe revolves around the idea of Allah "feeling." You "feel" something based stimuli outside yourself. So if Allah is not changed by his creation would it be better for me to understand his "feeling" as...this...He is by definition the necessary being of love...therefore, when he loves...he is not making a choice to "feel" something based upon anything outside himself...but rather in his sovereign righteousness he is sharing what he already has "love" with his creation?

You are going back to assuming the way he feels is the same way as we do, allah is the source of love as you said, he is also the source of mercy, Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem, in the name of Allah the most gracious the source of mercy.

How is he the source of these things in what way does he pour it down on us like rain or bring it down on us like a cloud. How it is for us and occurs in Us is not the same for him its just a small likeness nothing more.

i am out of time at the moment so insha allah we will have to continue the discussion another time.



Edited by rami
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
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