IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum: Probably a st**id Question?

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Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem

See the problem is Rami you are grouping Wahhabi's and Salafis together.

They are the same thing, if you one day woke and decided they are not go back to sleep and by the time you wake again they will be.

First the Salafi's do not consider themselves Wahhabis so you shouldn't
call them that.  This also falls in line with the Scholars that preach
the Salafi Manhaj are wrong. 

You dont speek for all people who call them selfs salfi's if you had that ability then salafis would be a madhhab with mujtahids rather than a motely crew of scholars around the world all believing and saying different things, some say they are wahhabis other say they are not. Ahlu hadith or ahlu sunnah, i believe minteman would have something to say about this matter. maybe some time ago the particular branch you follow had a falling out but certainly others do call them selfs wahhabi's.

The salafi minhaj isnt a madhab no matter how much you exaggerate the status of the scholars you follow.

One question Rami since you continue to harp on this, are you a
Scholar?  What is your justification to say the things you say about
me? 

maybe you dont have the capacity to understand the arguments being presented becouse to say i am harping is a sign of your frustration and inadequacy at replying to the points i raised, you seem to have not been able to address any of them but chose to stand up for what you perceive to be insults to your scholars. if I wanted to frustrate you in regards to your scholars i would have bluntly spoken the truth and stated none of them had any Ijazah to make a single fatwah out of line with any madhhab and everything they have ever said which contradicted ANY of the madhhabs in any matter is considered to be there attempt at Ijtihad i.e come up with new rulings.....A thing NOT permissible for them to do due to there lack of qualifications by the Ijma of the entire Ummah.

But what does it matter they claim they can correct an entire madhhab like it is a small thing to state and there followers casually utter such things like it all makes sence. 

No i am not a scholar, have i ever claimed to be are my arguments an indication of me pretending to be one. If so br should i be flattered you consider them sophisticated enough to be mistaken as such or your way of not having to consider and deal with them.

You should read this before claiming what Sheikh Albaanee(ra) is or isn't. There is also a autobiography on him. 

You should learn about the Ijazah system in islam to understand what he is. Shaykh albani is loosely known as a muhadith i say loosely becouse of this article,

http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/nuh/masudq6.htm

i wont contest that he is a muhadith becouse according to this wiki page he had two ijazah,

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Naasiruddeen_al-Albaan ee

While the article above addresses the specifics of the first Ijazah i know little about the second. regarding the article you posted i ask you br to read that article in an unbiased way and tell me where in all of point A does he mention a single Ijazzah in regards to him being a faqih, also note the article above addresses what he learnt from his farther.

I gave shaykh Albani the benefit of the doubt you can not prove anywhere in my post i insulted him i simply stated he made many mistakes which other scholars corrected.

Did you even read the information I left or just pick apart my statements?  

Yes i read your links they dont prove anything they simply make conclusions without "direct" and clear evidence. maybe i have a different standard than you do about how i accept things. I was in your position at one point but after many years you start to see the fine print because you become used to seeing certain things maybe to you it all looks fine but there arguments are weak.

I strongly think you should follow the advice of the first link, even if you dont agree with tawassul leave the name calling out of it.

I really find it offensive that you are trying to claim that I am calling myself a Mushrik.

i didnt say it the prophet did by your actions, i was also justifying why i said it in the first post i actually didnt repeat it in my second post.

I am repeating what the scholars say, just because you do not agree with the Scholar doesnt' mean he is wrong

No you are right my disagreement does not mean the scholar is wrong, when the majority of scholars say his position is wrong then i can say he is wrong based on that. can you see the difference.

 so like I stated up above according to your statements do YOU have any qualifications to come up with the things you say?

Do you have any real excuse for ignoring what i said. i believe i have Quoted the positions of the scholars regarding this matter not came up with my own fatwah so unless you can be more specific to what it is exactly i am supposed to have made up i dont need qualifications to repeat what a scholar said.

Would you like the qualifications for Imam Shafii?

What you are saying is that Abdul Wahhab and other scholars past and
present that made the same statements have called themselves Mushriks
and have died as Kafirs, is this correct?

dont bother trying to put words in my mouth i quoted a hadith does that now mean rasul allah [sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam] said they are Kufar?

To deny the laws of the Quran is an aspect of shirk but you are not
associating partners with Allah by doing it but scholars have
considered this shirk.

I agree, i forgot this point in my earlier post.

If you read the book by Albaanee(ra) in which he explains the prayer of
the Prophet(saaws) you will see all the evidence he uses.

I didnt say he had no evidence, you made a point of saying "as the prophet prayed" as if to say the madhhabs where not praying as the prophet prayed.

Maybe with more experience you will learn that simply becouse an argument sounds logical and makes sence does not necessarily make it correct, Only a mujtahid br has the right to come up with new rulings so with respect to shaykh Albani he was not qualified to do such a work no faqih is let alone a muhadith. 

i strongly recommend you read Fiqh al Imam.

If you read the book by Bilal Phillips that I left up you will see that
no one is saying the scholars are wrong but that doesn't mean they had
ALL the Ahadith.

this is an ignorant argument for someone supposedly of his calibr he should well know that the madhhab is not simply Imam abu hanifah and if you had read any article i posted this plain fact would have been made clear to you. the madhhab is centuries of Mujtahid scholars correcting and refining the works of previous generations as new evidence came to light. it is beyond comprehension how this accusation can be even leveled at the madhhabs in spite of this fact that a 1st year student at madina uni should know.

You even have some of the students of Abu Hanifa pray a different way
then Abu Hanifa taught because they found more Ahadith after his
death. 

Imam Abu hanifs two famous student where Mujtahid mutalqs, capable of starting there own madhhabs, but they both chose not to, they had a right and obligation to formulate there own opinions rather than make taqlid of him.

Do you hounestly think it is all just a matter of finding new hadith and that is it?

Once again the grouping of wahhabis and salafi's, wrong brother.

When did the saudis stop supporting the wahhabi minhaj and seperate it into the salafi minhaj. 

And who justifies this? 

First understand the place of the madhhabs in islam, i believe you dont by your own admission. The entire Umma for the past 1200 years have followed one of the four madhhabs, each khalifah in islams history used one of them for the basis of there government, all the scholars in history followed a madhhab without exception.

To say they are bidah or what ever is to bluntly accuse every scholar including Ibn taymiyah a hanabli of being misguided, if you want to make that claim we may as well end the discussion here.

All the Ulumah agree that only a mujtahid mutlaq can make his own madhhab, all lesser kinds of mujtahids can perform ijtihad with in the madhhabs themselfs and lesser uluma have to make taqlid as the Quran itself commands the ordinary people to do.

the salafi minhaj [that has come up in the last 50 years] as you call it and the wahhabi minhaj/movment [that arose not more than 300 years ago] is something outside of these madhhabs, scholars who are not qualified to perform even the lesser kind of ijtihad are performing the ijtihad of a mujtahid mutalq and therefor creating there own madhhbs.

im trying to simplify this as much as possible, the matter is much more complex. basically Madinah university teaches other than traditional islam, there opinions and ideas are all new and can never represent traditional islamic knowledge dating back to the time of the tabiin and sahaba which is the plain and obvious case with the madhhabs.

I never said Bilal Phillips is the "scholar of our time" but he is a scholar. 

""Here is a book written by a Scholar of our time about the Evolution of Fiqh.""

Just because you or the people that do not agree with his statements say so.

Unless you can address each of my points like i gave you the courtesy of in my post dont attempt to turn this into a factional issue of "the scholars i follow" versus "the scholars you follow" i consider this to be an insult i have attempted to explain what i said rather than state here is some shaykhs view i believe is right and follow without thinking.

Yusuf Qaradawi is a scholar but there are things that he says are wrong that doesn't make him not a scholar.

Yusuf Qaradawi as far as i know has ijazah [do you know what that is] from traditional muslim scholars, bilal philips as far as i know does not.

you insult me by accusing me of being so petty as to say a person is not a scholar simply becouse i think he is wrong, not once have displayed such ignorant and tribal beliefs let alone accused others of them with out justification.

Maybe people are that petty certainly i have seen it often enough, dont simply assume everyone is like that some are not.

Just because people like Albaanee say things that are wrong, no one is perfect only Allah(swt).

I completely agree but my issue is with qualifications i.e ijazah nothing else.

Below is an excerpt from the link above, please read the entire link before passing judgement brother:

i didnt pass judgment in my earlier post you assumed i did.

Edited by rami

Author	Message
rami Male Islam Senior Member Senior Member Joined: 01 March 2000 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2550	Posted: 20 February 2008 at 9:17am
	Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem See the problem is Rami you are grouping Wahhabi's and Salafis together. They are the same thing, if you one day woke and decided they are not go back to sleep and by the time you wake again they will be. First the Salafi's do not consider themselves Wahhabis so you shouldn't call them that. This also falls in line with the Scholars that preach the Salafi Manhaj are wrong. You dont speek for all people who call them selfs salfi's if you had that ability then salafis would be a madhhab with mujtahids rather than a motely crew of scholars around the world all believing and saying different things, some say they are wahhabis other say they are not. Ahlu hadith or ahlu sunnah, i believe minteman would have something to say about this matter. maybe some time ago the particular branch you follow had a falling out but certainly others do call them selfs wahhabi's. The salafi minhaj isnt a madhab no matter how much you exaggerate the status of the scholars you follow. One question Rami since you continue to harp on this, are you a Scholar? What is your justification to say the things you say about me? maybe you dont have the capacity to understand the arguments being presented becouse to say i am harping is a sign of your frustration and inadequacy at replying to the points i raised, you seem to have not been able to address any of them but chose to stand up for what you perceive to be insults to your scholars. if I wanted to frustrate you in regards to your scholars i would have bluntly spoken the truth and stated none of them had any Ijazah to make a single fatwah out of line with any madhhab and everything they have ever said which contradicted ANY of the madhhabs in any matter is considered to be there attempt at Ijtihad i.e come up with new rulings.....A thing NOT permissible for them to do due to there lack of qualifications by the Ijma of the entire Ummah. But what does it matter they claim they can correct an entire madhhab like it is a small thing to state and there followers casually utter such things like it all makes sence. No i am not a scholar, have i ever claimed to be are my arguments an indication of me pretending to be one. If so br should i be flattered you consider them sophisticated enough to be mistaken as such or your way of not having to consider and deal with them. You should read this before claiming what Sheikh Albaanee(ra) is or isn't. There is also a autobiography on him. You should learn about the Ijazah system in islam to understand what he is. Shaykh albani is loosely known as a muhadith i say loosely becouse of this article, http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/nuh/masudq6.htm i wont contest that he is a muhadith becouse according to this wiki page he had two ijazah, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Naasiruddeen_al-Albaan ee While the article above addresses the specifics of the first Ijazah i know little about the second. regarding the article you posted i ask you br to read that article in an unbiased way and tell me where in all of point A does he mention a single Ijazzah in regards to him being a faqih, also note the article above addresses what he learnt from his farther. I gave shaykh Albani the benefit of the doubt you can not prove anywhere in my post i insulted him i simply stated he made many mistakes which other scholars corrected. Did you even read the information I left or just pick apart my statements? Yes i read your links they dont prove anything they simply make conclusions without "direct" and clear evidence. maybe i have a different standard than you do about how i accept things. I was in your position at one point but after many years you start to see the fine print because you become used to seeing certain things maybe to you it all looks fine but there arguments are weak. I strongly think you should follow the advice of the first link, even if you dont agree with tawassul leave the name calling out of it. I really find it offensive that you are trying to claim that I am calling myself a Mushrik. i didnt say it the prophet did by your actions, i was also justifying why i said it in the first post i actually didnt repeat it in my second post. I am repeating what the scholars say, just because you do not agree with the Scholar doesnt' mean he is wrong No you are right my disagreement does not mean the scholar is wrong, when the majority of scholars say his position is wrong then i can say he is wrong based on that. can you see the difference. so like I stated up above according to your statements do YOU have any qualifications to come up with the things you say? Do you have any real excuse for ignoring what i said. i believe i have Quoted the positions of the scholars regarding this matter not came up with my own fatwah so unless you can be more specific to what it is exactly i am supposed to have made up i dont need qualifications to repeat what a scholar said. Would you like the qualifications for Imam Shafii? What you are saying is that Abdul Wahhab and other scholars past and present that made the same statements have called themselves Mushriks and have died as Kafirs, is this correct? dont bother trying to put words in my mouth i quoted a hadith does that now mean rasul allah [sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam] said they are Kufar? To deny the laws of the Quran is an aspect of shirk but you are not associating partners with Allah by doing it but scholars have considered this shirk. I agree, i forgot this point in my earlier post. If you read the book by Albaanee(ra) in which he explains the prayer of the Prophet(saaws) you will see all the evidence he uses. I didnt say he had no evidence, you made a point of saying "as the prophet prayed" as if to say the madhhabs where not praying as the prophet prayed. Maybe with more experience you will learn that simply becouse an argument sounds logical and makes sence does not necessarily make it correct, Only a mujtahid br has the right to come up with new rulings so with respect to shaykh Albani he was not qualified to do such a work no faqih is let alone a muhadith. i strongly recommend you read Fiqh al Imam. If you read the book by Bilal Phillips that I left up you will see that no one is saying the scholars are wrong but that doesn't mean they had ALL the Ahadith. this is an ignorant argument for someone supposedly of his calibr he should well know that the madhhab is not simply Imam abu hanifah and if you had read any article i posted this plain fact would have been made clear to you. the madhhab is centuries of Mujtahid scholars correcting and refining the works of previous generations as new evidence came to light. it is beyond comprehension how this accusation can be even leveled at the madhhabs in spite of this fact that a 1st year student at madina uni should know. You even have some of the students of Abu Hanifa pray a different way then Abu Hanifa taught because they found more Ahadith after his death. Imam Abu hanifs two famous student where Mujtahid mutalqs, capable of starting there own madhhabs, but they both chose not to, they had a right and obligation to formulate there own opinions rather than make taqlid of him. Do you hounestly think it is all just a matter of finding new hadith and that is it? Once again the grouping of wahhabis and salafi's, wrong brother. When did the saudis stop supporting the wahhabi minhaj and seperate it into the salafi minhaj. And who justifies this? First understand the place of the madhhabs in islam, i believe you dont by your own admission. The entire Umma for the past 1200 years have followed one of the four madhhabs, each khalifah in islams history used one of them for the basis of there government, all the scholars in history followed a madhhab without exception. To say they are bidah or what ever is to bluntly accuse every scholar including Ibn taymiyah a hanabli of being misguided, if you want to make that claim we may as well end the discussion here. All the Ulumah agree that only a mujtahid mutlaq can make his own madhhab, all lesser kinds of mujtahids can perform ijtihad with in the madhhabs themselfs and lesser uluma have to make taqlid as the Quran itself commands the ordinary people to do. the salafi minhaj [that has come up in the last 50 years] as you call it and the wahhabi minhaj/movment [that arose not more than 300 years ago] is something outside of these madhhabs, scholars who are not qualified to perform even the lesser kind of ijtihad are performing the ijtihad of a mujtahid mutalq and therefor creating there own madhhbs. im trying to simplify this as much as possible, the matter is much more complex. basically Madinah university teaches other than traditional islam, there opinions and ideas are all new and can never represent traditional islamic knowledge dating back to the time of the tabiin and sahaba which is the plain and obvious case with the madhhabs. I never said Bilal Phillips is the "scholar of our time" but he is a scholar. ""Here is a book written by a Scholar of our time about the Evolution of Fiqh."" Just because you or the people that do not agree with his statements say so. Unless you can address each of my points like i gave you the courtesy of in my post dont attempt to turn this into a factional issue of "the scholars i follow" versus "the scholars you follow" i consider this to be an insult i have attempted to explain what i said rather than state here is some shaykhs view i believe is right and follow without thinking. Yusuf Qaradawi is a scholar but there are things that he says are wrong that doesn't make him not a scholar. Yusuf Qaradawi as far as i know has ijazah [do you know what that is] from traditional muslim scholars, bilal philips as far as i know does not. you insult me by accusing me of being so petty as to say a person is not a scholar simply becouse i think he is wrong, not once have displayed such ignorant and tribal beliefs let alone accused others of them with out justification. Maybe people are that petty certainly i have seen it often enough, dont simply assume everyone is like that some are not. Just because people like Albaanee say things that are wrong, no one is perfect only Allah(swt). I completely agree but my issue is with qualifications i.e ijazah nothing else. Below is an excerpt from the link above, please read the entire link before passing judgement brother: i didnt pass judgment in my earlier post you assumed i did. Edited by rami
	Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
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rami Male Islam Senior Member Senior Member Joined: 01 March 2000 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2550	Posted: 20 February 2008 at 9:47am
	Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem wallaikum asalam I just want to use an example of the misuse of following a Mathab. There are many brothers that pray with their hands down to the side. Now where did they get this?............................ Malik did it for a reason, he had to there was no other way for him to pray, but he would not say that's how the Prophet(saaws) made prayer. This is a fabrication against the maliki madhhab br, alhamdulilah you used this example becouse i can at least show how complex these issues are. The Vindication of the People of the Maghrib Concerning the Issue of Sadl Laying the Hands Straight in the Prayer in the Maliki Madhhab. http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/misc/yadain.htm Edited by rami
	Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
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dp75 Newbie Joined: 17 February 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 28	Posted: 20 February 2008 at 10:01am
	*Originally posted by rami* Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem wallaikum asalam I just want to use an example of the misuse of following a Mathab. There are many brothers that pray with their hands down to the side. Now where did they get this?............................ Malik did it for a reason, he had to there was no other way for him to pray, but he would not say that's how the Prophet(saaws) made prayer. This is a fabrication against the maliki madhhab br, alhamdulilah you used this example becouse i can at least show how complex these issues are. The Vindication of the People of the Maghrib Concerning the Issue of Sadl Laying the Hands Straight in the Prayer in the Maliki Madhhab. http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/misc/yadain.htm Okay I'm not really understanding this brother, insha'Allah can you help me. Is this saying that it is okay to put the hands down on the side and the story about Imam Malik(Ra) is not true? Is there not a hadith related to the Prophet(saaws) saying not ot put your hands on the side?
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rami Male Islam Senior Member Senior Member Joined: 01 March 2000 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2550	Posted: 20 February 2008 at 10:22am
	Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem Most difference between the madhhabs are not a case of this has no evidance or this does its rather a case of rasul allah did this act this way most of the time as apposed to doing a different way. Rasul allah in his life prayed at least once with his hands down by his side, another time he placed them below the naval, another time just obve it and another time on his chest. We have ahadith and evidance for all of these cases the uluma have to decide based on various factors which they believe he did the most and was not a one of situation. Remember how i said the madhhabs conduct research into finding out what Allah comanded, this is becouse most of the knowledge is not so clear we have evidance which indicate certain things but they dont paint a complete picture. Imam malik was known for basing his fiqh rulling on the actions of the ulumah of madinah, these people where tabiin whose teachers where famouse sahabah. So if Imam malik says pray with you hands by your side it basically means he found all the people of madinah 150 years after the prophets time praying this way. Keep in mind how significant this fact is, this was the prophets city in which he lived, any action they perform you can say with almost absolute certainty was being practiced in the time of the prophet unless you want to claim the sahbah of his city and the tabiin who they taught and who in turn taught Imam malik had invented something new you cant make a claim that people prayed with there hands down there sides becouse imam malik was to weak to raise them. Yes there are ahadith which state you can pray this way and in Bukhari no less, but they dont explicitly state this so the scholars differed in there understanding. you may be interested in this article, The 'Amal of Madina http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/ABewley/Page1.html Edited by rami
	Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
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dp75 Newbie Joined: 17 February 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 28	Posted: 20 February 2008 at 10:37am
	Brother Rami, I believe the way I am saying things or typing them is coming out not how I want them to be understood. I have had many problems like this when posting on forums. I can see from your knowledge on your posts that you know a lot of information far more then I do, so I know you have heard of the Khawarji(SP?). Wouldn't these people be the right name instead of Wahhabi's or Salafis'. I know the Salafi's speak out against this group so this is why I don't feel that the Wahhabi's and Salafis are the same but I also don't believe there are Wahhabis but theire are Khawariji's. I don't call myself a salafi maybe it would seem like I do with what I say and who I leave up as my evidence but I admire a lot of other scholars that are not salafi. I don't believe I have ever heard Albani or Bilal Phillips ever call themselves Wahhabi. Yasir Qadhi has also spoken out against this Wahhabi name calling. I don't believe I am frustrated I think maybe I or you are misunderstanding each other. I don't consider these people as my scholars I take from what they say just like I take from what Ibn Taymijjah(ra) has said or Ibn Kathir(ra) or Abu Hanifah(ra) or Malik(ra) or other scholars. I do not agree with everything that some of the scholars like Albani or Bilal Phillips say because I have heard different opinions from other scholars. I don't believe that they claim they can correct an entire mathab brother, I have not seen that in them anywhere. I believe that they are doing exactly what other scholars of the past of done and that is with more information and more knowledge you come to the conclusions on certain issues according to practicing the Quran and Sunnah. I believe they are against following Mathabs but not following a Manhaj which I believe is different, is it? You have left many articles by Shaikh Nuh Ha Mim Keller and it says that he "possesses ijazas or "certifiates of authorisation" in Islamic jurisprudence from sheikhs in Syria and Jordan." Now the same thing is said about Albani but you do not except that because of what Nuh Ha Mim Keller says. Is that proper? I have also said that Albani has made many mistakes and I also said if you read the information I left up he has admitted these mistakes later in life and has changed his stance on certain issues he made in the past and he gives the reasons why he has changed his stance. I believe we should look at Albani life as a whole and to be honest I believe we should read about individuals and read their works before we read what others have said because then you come to the persons work with a biased opinion him before you even read his works. Did I name call you brother? Forgive me if I have, I didn't have the intention to do so. I never said I don't believe in tawassul and neither has Albani but I left up his book on the subject. He didn't deny tawassul just some of the aspects that are not part of the Quran and Sunnah but I don't believe I nor he totally rejected it. As I said up above you have qouted the position of mainly one scholar and that is Nuh Ha Mim Keller. I'm not saying that is all of your qouting but it is a majority of it from what I have seen. There is a lot to respond and I am mostly doing this from work on my free time so it's not easy responding to everything so brother I'm not trying to avoid what you have said. I am not tryint to put words in your mouth but no where have I called anyone a Kafir. I know the hadith of the Prophet(saaws) and I have never called an individual a Kafir in any of my statements. I never said that the Mathads are not praying as the Prophet(saaws) had prayed but there can be only one way am I right? Yes under certain conditions there were different ways that the Prophet(saaws) may have prayed but can we agree that there was one majority way? As I have stated do you believe that the scholars had compiled all of the Ahadith? That is not saying the scholars are wrong, Allah even rewards them when they are wrong. This is actually the one of the first books I received on prayer and I can't remember anywhere the brother used a Mathab. http://www.onlineislamicstore.com/b8410.html I don't believe I ever said the Mathabs are bidah, my thing is and I believe I have stated this and it can be wrong but my thing is people follow mathabs so strongly that they will not even do something against it even if it is wrong. A Mathab is not perfect is it? It states that you are from Australia is that correct? I believe there have been Imams give lectures there by the name of Khalid Yasin who studied in Medina school. Now he has give lectures in the Masjid I go for Jumuah in Manhattan and I have some of his DVD's. From my impression on him, first he is a great speaker but it also seems he has a lot of knowledge and I don't see anything extreme out of him on the things he says. What is your opinion on him? Also Sheikh Feiz Muhammad and there is another Sheikh I have listened to from Australia by the name of Shady Sulaiman I believe. What are your opinions on these brothers? There is probably a lot I have left out and a lot misunderstand, forgive me brother for that.
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dp75 Newbie Joined: 17 February 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 28	Posted: 20 February 2008 at 10:41am
	So the story about Imam Malik(ra) and his beating is incorrect? Also thank you for pointing out the evidence of the position of the hands because the Imams at the local Masjid I go to which is Albanian so they follow the Hanafi Mathab they continue to say that only women pray with their hands on the chest. Now the reason I find this wrong is because if there is evidence that the Prophet(saaws) did it you should not say only women do that. Now one issue I would like explained insha'Allah if you can brother is, is there two books on prayer in the hanafi mathab, one for men one for women? Where does this come form if so, Did not the Prophet(saaws) say pray as you see me pray and no where does he make a distinction for women. Is this true or not?
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dp75 Newbie Joined: 17 February 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 28	Posted: 20 February 2008 at 11:13am
	Brother Rami this is some of the information I have received about the scholar you leave up by the name of Nuh Ha Mim Keller http://www.allaahuakbar.net/individual_callers/nuh_ha_mim/a_ brief_clarification_about_nuh_ha_mim.htm Now of course I don't know if what they say about him is correct but the following statement: Keller says: “The conduct of the disciple towards the sheikh… consists of five things: following what the sheikh says, even when something else seems better; avoiding what he forbids, even if it means ones death; upholding the sheikhs honor be he present or absent, dead or alive; fulfilling the sheikhs rights to the degree possible, without remissness.” He continues: “... Suspending ones intellect, knowledge, and leadership except as the sheikh confirms.” If this is what Keller has said then I don't see any basis in Islam on this, is there? A little more from the same website: http://www.allaahuakbar.net/individual_callers/nuh_ha_mim/nu h_keller_on_singing_and_dancing.htm http://www.allaahuakbar.net/individual_callers/nuh_ha_mim/li es_and_distortions_of_keller.htm http://www.allaahuakbar.net/individual_callers/nuh_ha_mim/a_ review_of_tareeqa_notes_of_nuh_ha_mim.htm Edited by dp75
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rami Male Islam Senior Member Senior Member Joined: 01 March 2000 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2550	Posted: 21 February 2008 at 2:23am
	Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem I am going to be blunt here because as a former moderator on this forum i have seen many people pretending to be things they are not. I sincerely replied to your so called questions and it is obvious from what you chose to reply to and what you have said and accused others of saying that you are not seeking to learn or investigate the accuracy of what you know. you accuse me of claiming to be a scholar simply becouse i display some level of analysis in the position i believe is the truth, it is obvious you have set firm roots in your beliefs and there is no further need for this ridiculous one sided Q&A. simply because i have answers to your questions that have been asked on this forum 1000 times before you came along does not mean i am pretending to be something. It is amusing that you would volentarily call the very scholars you claim to follow as well as there movment khawarij, your comments are far to self contradictory and inconsistant. I am going to clarify some of your points so others dont take them at your word. So the story about Imam Malik(ra) and his beating is incorrect? I dont know if the story is truthful or not but the Idea that a mujtahid Imam who's students where mujtahids would make a fiqh ruling based on this ignorant reasoning is a joke. Unless you know the reason why a madhhab did something you have no right to criticise it for anything even if you think the quran itself is saying the opposite of what they have. How can you judge someone when you dont know the reason of why he did something, try looking into the maliki sources instead of taking those who appose them at face value. I don't believe that they claim they can correct an entire mathab brother, "I just want to use an example of the misuse of following a Mathab...." Where did this example come from, ive seen many more which make the same ignorant conclusion that the madhhab itself is wrong....just like you did. “The conduct of the disciple towards the sheikh… consists of five things: following what the sheikh says, even when something else seems better; avoiding what he forbids, even if it means ones death; upholding the sheikhs honor be he present or absent, dead or alive; fulfilling the sheikhs rights to the degree possible, without remissness.” He continues: “... Suspending ones intellect, knowledge, and leadership except as the sheikh confirms.” Do you know what subject he is talking about? who is he talking to? who is the author of the article? do you always believe articles with no authors? no doubt you assumed the above to fill in the blanks missing in the picture. To begin with he is NOT talking about Fiqh or Aqeedah that alone should change the entire meaning of what you think he said, he is also addressing his regular students in a private gathering therefore he knows who he is talking to and what knowledge they have or should know, that should limit what assumptions you can make about his words, this also limits the applicability of his words. "The conduct of the studnet" is referring to two things adab and discipline, so when he says "following what the sheikh says, even when something else seems better;" he is talking about conduct not fiqh rulings or Aqeedah, the last part of that statement is referring to the students perception that something else is better like the verse in the Quran in which Allah says you may like a thing and think it is good for you but what is with allah is better than that [not the exact wording]. "avoiding what he forbids, even if it means ones death;" this isnt a literal statement its said to convey the seriousness of the issue not to kill yourself. can you think of any situation in which if you avoid a thing you will die? "Suspending ones intellect, knowledge, and leadership except as the sheikh confirms." again this is talking about Adab not fiqh or Aqeedah once you realise this his words take on a new meaning. the site you quote from is not reliable, they take statements out of context, twist the meanings, quote and convey them in a way to make certain the reader interprates what was said in the worst possible way. It is one thing to refute what a shaikh actually said and another to refute what you think he said, the subject matter he is talking about is tassawuf and to understand what he is saying you need to have prerequesit knowledge of the subject not simply start reading without any background information. This is a simple fact, you cant attempt to understand a deep discussion if your not at the level of the students he is addressing so the mystery authors of that article are guilty of spreading false information and taking quotes out of context deliberately. Had he actually intended those words the way they are presented on that site no one would be upset but that site is one of the least ethical sites on the net and hardly a reliable source. it shouldn't be to hard to understand how this could occur considering you said "I believe the way I am saying things or typing them is coming out not how I want them to be understood." regarding the issue of dancing as long as there is no inappropriate movements then it is permissible, if they hold a different view, then this is a difference of opinion not something to harp on about as if no one in the entire ummah permitted it and he did subhanallah. regarding the article on salafis, thats just a joke you can basically boil that down to the salafi position on certain matters and the rest of the ummahs position hardly something to right an expose on when most ulumah outside there group have similar views. regarding the last article the most ridiculous one of all only they hold such beliefs about the Ashari ulumah no one else so its no surprise there. the other points are just petty and have no merit, they dont accept a figure while other ulumah do who dont belong to there sect its that simple. Edited by rami
	Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
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