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Interfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Interfaith Dialogue
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Ron Webb
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 17 February 2008 at 10:59am

Originally posted by poga

who is malchezadek

I give up.  Who was he?

who is this god who is doing what he is doing to sarah

There is only one God, poga.  What's your point?

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Ron Webb
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 17 February 2008 at 1:15pm

Originally posted by rami

You are not more dignified than every single prophet he sent or every single angel he created or Jesus himself and his mother marry.

The meaning of a behaviour is determined by the social context.  Fourteen centuries ago in the Middle East, grovelling may have been a sign of respect.  Today, where I live at least, it is considered demeaning both to the grovellee and the groveller.

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rami
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Quote rami Replybullet Posted: 17 February 2008 at 2:46pm
Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem

The meaning of a behaviour is determined by the social context.

And thus a prophet became a god to those who prostrate them selfs to society rather than the one true God.

Does religion itself change because society changes or is religion the litmus test by which we measure how twisted society has become, i think your socially conscious answer is clear enough.

Fourteen centuries ago in the Middle East, grovelling may have been a sign of respect.  Today, where I live at least, it is considered demeaning both to the grovellee and the groveller.

will society again change when jesus returns or will they dare insult him and accuse him of groveling?

Arrogance has not changed in 2000 years ago, but it seems the meaning of the word dignity has. There is nothing more dignified than to submit your will to him and prostration is a sign of submitting your will, this was the meaning 2000 years ago and it still remains the meaning today. Society simply become morally bankrupt it doesn't dictate what is right or wrong in the absolute sense we havnt learnt how to be the master of the universe yet.

Why dont we get back to the subject which is the underlaying belief in your post that you will accept a being as God if he simply displays some form of Godly powers.

Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
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Ron Webb
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 17 February 2008 at 6:20pm

Originally posted by rami

Does religion itself change because society changes or is religion the litmus test by which we measure how twisted society has become, i think your socially conscious answer is clear enough.

Religion itself need not change, but religious practice certainly does.

will society again change when jesus returns or will they dare insult him and accuse him of groveling?

If Jesus were to return today in my own community, I'm convinced he would bathe daily, brush his teeth regularly, wear appropriate clothing, speak the language and adopt the customs (within reason) of contemporary society.  I bet he'd be clean-shaven too, because a beard would make it harder to win public trust.  I don't think he'd be doing much grovelling.

If he looked and behaved (and smelled!) as he did two millennia ago, he'd probably be mistaken for a homeless person, or maybe an escaped mental patient.  Not a good image for someone delivering an important message to mankind.

Why dont we get back to the subject which is the underlaying belief in your post that you will accept a being as God if he simply displays some form of Godly powers.

Well, I'm not sure I said that exactly, but I'd be interested to know how you would define a (small g) god, without reference to godly powers.

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rami
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Quote rami Replybullet Posted: 17 February 2008 at 10:16pm
Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem

Religion itself need not change, but religious practice certainly does.

So mans social pressures are above Gods doctrine?

Do we tell God what is wrong or right now.

If Jesus were to return today in my own community, I'm convinced he would bathe daily, brush his teeth regularly, wear appropriate clothing, speak the language and adopt the customs (within reason) of contemporary society.

Is the opposite of these part of religion?

you seem to have a Hollywood understanding of History? John the Baptist was baptizing people in water not mud, The jews of the time used to take ritual baths to purify themselves of impurity and sin they believed similar to how we believe that water washes away sins from the physical body.

You brush your teeth one or twice a day, a muslim is instructed to brush them 5 times a day, we have a saying from our prophet "half of faith consists of cleanliness".

Those who are trully being guided by God are pure and clean by there very nature its a manifestation of there worship of God.

Hollywood wont teach you that.

"adopt the customs"

This is a very deep topic, i dont think a devinely inspired being whohas knowledge about cration tiself will adopt heathanistic customs "A"

but it also depends on what you mean by customs.

I bet he'd be clean-shaven too, because a beard would make it harder to win public trust. 

trust earned by deceptive means is beneath a prophet, if there is spiritual good in having a beard [something which may be beyond your perception] then he will have a beard in order to show there is good in it. God created man with facial hair looking neat does not necessarily entail not having abeard.

I don't think he'd be doing much grovelling.


That is your misguided understanding, you desire him to bend to your will and fallible understanding of reality rather than try to understand his which is being guided to the truth or according to your beliefe as a christian he is the Truth.

but I'd be interested to know how you would define a (small g) god, without reference to godly powers.

There is no such thing as a small god, There is only One God.


Edited by rami
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
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Quote myahya Replybullet Posted: 18 February 2008 at 2:02am
but I'd be interested to know how you would define a (small g) god, without reference to godly powers.

As a Muslim I believe that Allah is greater than all references. Therefore, If one limits Allah's power to any special definition (which may be called "godly power" or ...) I say Allah is greater.
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Quote Israfil Replybullet Posted: 18 February 2008 at 11:06am

I am pushed on time but I wanted to point on several things that interest me. My posts will be in bold.

Angela said: The nature of God is such that anything is possible to him.

This is somewhat true and not true. The above statement is problematic because if we say that the nature of God is such that God can actualize (make it true) then we can run into problems. There are rules in which philosophically speaking, God CANNOT do such as self-annihilation. Can infinity self-annihilate itself? In the eyes of physics and logic, hardly. If we were to suspect that God has established some sort of spiritual rule then it would be logical to pressupose that God has self-limiting qualities ergo, decides to not annihilate itself. Of course religionist would find such things as a ridiculous notion however certain statements can be made problematic. I choose not to say God can do "anything" just "anything that is logical." It is not logical for an infinitely wise being to suddenly desire to go into non-existence.

Ron Webb said: Religion itself need not change, but religious practice certainly does.

This statement is nonsensical. Where do you think religious practices derive from? If I am told to prostrate where do you think this command comes from? But if we are discussing specificities then you need to specify which religious practices you are talking about.

Ron Webb:

If Jesus were to return today in my own community, I'm convinced he would bathe daily, brush his teeth regularly, wear appropriate clothing, speak the language and adopt the customs (within reason) of contemporary society.  I bet he'd be clean-shaven too, because a beard would make it harder to win public trust.  I don't think he'd be doing much grovelling.

This is assumption. I would imagine ancient prophets having a divine aura around them that would create an influence upon thse within their perimeter. Like the Dali Lama for instance I hear when others are around him they tend to have this positive feeling that eminates from him. Now imagine if this were true this is a great quality for a simple human being. Now imagine a prophet. You ar emerely asuming that if Jesus were to return he'd acclimate into a particular culture I assume western (or a westernized culture) by what you describe since some cultures prefer to not shave, clean themselves etc. I couldn't begin to describe WWJD.

Ron Webb said:

If he looked and behaved (and smelled!) as he did two millennia ago, he'd probably be mistaken for a homeless person, or maybe an escaped mental patient.  Not a good image for someone delivering an important message to mankind.

This is again absurd now you are assuming Jesus was not a  hygenic person. This whole unshaven smelly thing is quite absurd you cannot possibly articulate or even imagine how Jesus lived during his his ministries this is kinda ridiculous. You only have historical, Biblical and quranic accounts of the time Jesus lived but according to history he lived (supposedly) 33 years so how do you know within those 33 years he lived like a homeless man who smelled?

Ron Webb said:

Well, I'm not sure I said that exactly, but I'd be interested to know how you would define a (small g) god, without reference to godly powers.

I'm not sure if I understand this or I'm just coming in too late in the conversation but from my understanding, a god is someone who is immortal and has specific authority and autonomy over something either a specific element or planet or part of the universe. Prophets are not gods in the monotheistic tradition because they were mortals and had limited authority and even that limited authority was given to them by someone else. But as we see in the Greek tradition the gods of Olympus had their powers given as well (By Zeus I believe after he overthrew his Father).

 

 

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Ron Webb
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 18 February 2008 at 11:13am

Originally posted by rami

Religion itself need not change, but religious practice certainly does.

So mans social pressures are above Gods doctrine?

By "religion itself" I meant God's doctrine.  God demands our respect and our faith, but as far as I know He did not stipulate that we express it by prostrating ourselves.  God wants us to be clean, but as far as I know He did not stipulate the use of soap, deodorant or toothbrushes.

you seem to have a Hollywood understanding of History? John the Baptist was baptizing people in water not mud, The jews of the time used to take ritual baths to purify themselves of impurity and sin they believed similar to how we believe that water washes away sins from the physical body.

Right. How often do you suppose Jesus and his contemporaries bathed, ritually or otherwise?


trust earned by deceptive means is beneath a prophet, if there is spiritual good in having a beard [something which may be beyond your perception] then he will have a beard in order to show there is good in it. God created man with facial hair looking neat does not necessarily entail not having abeard.

There's nothing deceptive about shaving, rami, and IMHO there's little point in being a prophet if no one believes you.  Having a beard does not make you a better person, and if it did, that would have been mentioned in the Quran.  Allah tells us He left nothing out.

but I'd be interested to know how you would define a (small g) god, without reference to godly powers.

There is no such thing as a small god, There is only One God.

Sorry, I didn't make myself clear.  Let me put it this way: the Quran (4.36) says "worship God [alone], and do not ascribe divinity, in any way, to aught beside Him."  What do you think "ascribing divinity" means?  Does it not mean attributing godly powers to someone other than Allah?

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