IslamiCity Forum

Message

   Thanks for your response, rami.  I know I'm trying your patience and I know you put a great deal of time into your comments.  I think we are closer to understanding each other than we were before, so I have found it a benefit.

Originally posted by rami

The scholars have gone through all the ahadith and categorised all his statements to being personnel to him alone or actual teachings about islam, its not that hard but there have been some small cases of confusion due to differences of opinions but this is the exception and not the rule.

I think it would be very hard indeed, otherwise anyone could consider himself to be an Islamic scholar.  Even the authenticity of the hadiths themselves are often contested.
Just out of curiosity, though, how would you decide whether the Prophet's comments about beards are "about religion" or not?  The way I see it, we are given two things, and only two things, directly from Allah: the Quran, and our own intelligence.  If there is nothing in the Quran about beards (is there?), and my own common sense tells me that having a beard does not make me a better person, then I see no reason to assume that the Prophet's comments still apply today.
I'm guessing you see the burden of proof on the other side though, eh?  You need strong evidence that it doesn't apply before making that assumption.  I think that is our fundamental difference.

It depends on the subject matter and that is what im trying to make you see that most of what he taught had a timeless nature becouse  the subject matter itself was timeless while other topics such as warfare does change overtime but the actions he took or things he said you can extract principles of law from, which can be applied to different situations at different times.

If that is what you are trying to make me see, then we were never far apart to begin with.  My impression was that you were claiming that all of what he taught had a timeless nature and that nothing of relevance had changed.

Author	Message
Ron Webb Male Humanism Senior Member Joined: 30 January 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1403	Posted: 12 February 2008 at 4:57pm
	Thanks for your response, rami. I know I'm trying your patience and I know you put a great deal of time into your comments. I think we are closer to understanding each other than we were before, so I have found it a benefit. *Originally posted by rami* The scholars have gone through all the ahadith and categorised all his statements to being personnel to him alone or actual teachings about islam, its not that hard but there have been some small cases of confusion due to differences of opinions but this is the exception and not the rule. I think it would be very hard indeed, otherwise anyone could consider himself to be an Islamic scholar. Even the authenticity of the hadiths themselves are often contested. Just out of curiosity, though, how would you decide whether the Prophet's comments about beards are "about religion" or not? The way I see it, we are given two things, and only two things, directly from Allah: the Quran, and our own intelligence. If there is nothing in the Quran about beards (is there?), and my own common sense tells me that having a beard does not make me a better person, then I see no reason to assume that the Prophet's comments still apply today. I'm guessing you see the burden of proof on the other side though, eh? You need strong evidence that it doesn't apply before making that assumption. I think that is our fundamental difference. It depends on the subject matter and that is what im trying to make you see that most of what he taught had a timeless nature becouse the subject matter itself was timeless while other topics such as warfare does change overtime but the actions he took or things he said you can extract principles of law from, which can be applied to different situations at different times. If that is what you are trying to make me see, then we were never far apart to begin with. My impression was that you were claiming that all of what he taught had a timeless nature and that nothing of relevance had changed.
	IP Logged

honeto Senior Member Joined: 20 March 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2340	Posted: 24 March 2008 at 6:42pm
	*Originally posted by believer* follow hadith when the Quran is supposed to be complete? Is it possible that Mohammad was not finnished when he died? Hi believer, the best way for you to understand this is that "the hadith" is like the gospels of John, matthews, Luke, and Paul. The account of what Jesus was saying and doing written by many people, and not God speaking in first person. So Hadith is not the word of God, while Quran is the word of God. Phrophet Mohammed(pbuh) in his last sermon declared that he has completed the mission he was sent for. Hasan
	39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
	IP Logged

minuteman Senior Member Joined: 25 March 2007 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1642	Posted: 28 March 2008 at 3:25am
	Yes, I believe that the bible of the church is like our books of Hadith. Our books are more reliable than the bible. The books of Hadith describe what our holy prophet said and did. Similarly,the bible NT describes what Jesus did and said. Both the bible and the Hadith are not the words of God. They are sort of biographies of the two prophets of Allah.
	If any one is bad some one must suffer
	IP Logged

believer Guest Group Joined: 08 January 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1397	Posted: 28 March 2008 at 8:38am
	LOL! Mohammad recognized the Holy Scriptures from GOD, - the Torah and Gospel! Mohammad never said that the Torah and Gospel were like hadith. You mustn't dismiss the Holy Bible so easily. The Bible is a beautiful miracle written over so many years through so many GOD inspired writers. Jesus is GOD speaking in first person and the Bible is the Word of GOD. It might interest you to study the fufilled prophecies of the Bible. The Holy Bible has been proven historically acurate.
	John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
	IP Logged

believer Guest Group Joined: 08 January 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1397	Posted: 28 March 2008 at 8:44am
	John 19 The Death of Jesus 28Later, knowing that all was now completed, and so that the Scripture would be fulfilled, Jesus said, "I am thirsty." 29A jar of wine vinegar was there, so they soaked a sponge in it, put the sponge on a stalk of the hyssop plant, and lifted it to Jesus' lips. 30When he had received the drink, Jesus said, "It is finished." With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.
	John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
	IP Logged

minuteman Senior Member Joined: 25 March 2007 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1642	Posted: 28 March 2008 at 10:25am
	*Originally posted by believer* John 19 The Death of Jesus 28Later, knowing that all was now completed, and so that the Scripture would be fulfilled, Jesus said, "I am thirsty." 29A jar of wine vinegar was there, so they soaked a sponge in it, put the sponge on a stalk of the hyssop plant, and lifted it to Jesus' lips. 30When he had received the drink, Jesus said, "It is finished." With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit. Believer please tell me if the above are all the words of God. Did God say those words?? To whom did he say those words?? Then how those words got to the scribe? You will understand that those are not the words of God at all. Not even the words of Jesus. You see, this happened and that happened etc. Who is describing all that?? It is not God and not Jesus. But it is upto you to believe the way you like because you are a believer.
	If any one is bad some one must suffer
	IP Logged

believer Guest Group Joined: 08 January 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1397	Posted: 30 March 2008 at 7:03am
	Transmission of the messages of Allah/GOD. Allah-> Gabriel-> Mohammad-> Scribes GOD-> Apostles who happened to be eye witnesses and scribes.
	John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
	IP Logged

honeto Senior Member Joined: 20 March 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2340	Posted: 31 March 2008 at 11:37am
	*Originally posted by believer* LOL! Mohammad recognized the Holy Scriptures from GOD, - the Torah and Gospel! Mohammad never said that the Torah and Gospel were like hadith. You mustn't dismiss the Holy Bible so easily. The Bible is a beautiful miracle written over so many years through so many GOD inspired writers. Jesus is GOD speaking in first person and the Bible is the Word of GOD. It might interest you to study the fufilled prophecies of the Bible. The Holy Bible has been proven historically acurate. Hi believer, let me correct you, it was God who confirmed in the Quran that Torah and Gospel were from Him in the past, not Mohammed (pbuh) through whom that message came. Also Quran confirms that they were changed and altered. Now as far as your insistance that Jesus (pbuh) was God and thus whatever he spoke was God's word, your source (the bible) have not been able to prove that without contradicting that claim. And you have been unable to explain the following verse I quoted previously and I will quote it again: John 20:17 ....but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. Remember, those of us who believe in One Creator, One true God, do not believe that God has a God, a wife, a son or a daughter. Believer, Torah and Gospel were words of God, what we now call 'the bible' is not. And that is not just because I said so or someone has said so. Instead that is what its contents prove to be. You and I, and everyone probably will agree that God's word (coming from the All Knowing should not have inconsistancies in it. Some typos or man made mistake are possible through trasmission but contradictions to the degree this book has does not make God look good, if we accept that its pure word of God. In truth I cannot do that because for me God is not inconsistance nor incapable. Thus the blame for those inconsistancies goes to the men who assumed the charge of keeping it (the Bible) in accordance with their own understanding and belief and not what God was teaching. I think its silly to prove bible's authenticity through "the fulfilled prophesies of the bible" while its own contents cannot stand by it in truth. Hasan
	39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
	IP Logged

	Active Topics Memberlist Calendar Search Help
	Register Login Old Forum

Islam for non-Muslims
IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Islam for non-Muslims

Topic: Why do Muslims
	<< Prev Page of 11 Next >>

John 19

John 19