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Ron Webb
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 11 February 2008 at 6:14am

Originally posted by Angel

What makes you think that Muhammed did not command/ask his companions to write down the hadiths?

I was going to quote Wikipedia on this, but since I've already said they are "not infallible", here's a different (and maybe less biased) source:

In Hadith literature, there are hadiths that forbid and others that permit the writing down of hadiths, which often causes a confusion for some people.

Prophet Muhammad once said,

"Do not write from me anything except the Qur'an and whosoever has written anything from me other than the Qur'an should erase it." (Al-Bukhari)

By this hadith Prophet Muhammad actually meant that nothing should be written with the Qur'an on the same sheet, as this might lead to mixing the text of the Qur'an with that of the Hadith. This command was given when the Qur'an was being revealed piecemeal and was still incomplete.

Another interpretation of the hadith is that it was forbidden to write down hadiths in early days because all attention was to be paid to the Qur'an and its preservation.

Then later on, when there was no fear of abandoning the Qur'an, the previous order was abrogated and the Companions were permitted to write down hadiths. On the other hand, there is evidence that Prophet Muhammad approved of writing down his hadiths.

http://www.readingislam.com/servlet/Satellite?c=Article_C&am p;cid=1188044001762&pagename=Zone-English-Discover_Islam %2FDIELayout 

At best, this is another example of a hadith obviously directed only at the Prophet's contemporaries and not meant to be applicable today.  At worst, it could be interpreted as invalidating the whole collection.

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layalee
 
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Quote layalee Replybullet Posted: 11 February 2008 at 8:54am
Originally posted by Angel

The hadiths and the qu'ran go hand in hand, you cannot have one without the other, this is what I've learnt over the years.

Angel, can you explain your understanding of this concept some more......

please

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poga
 
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Quote poga Replybullet Posted: 12 February 2008 at 12:16am
Originally posted by layalee

No muslim that has taken the shahada and believe, and have a basic understanding of Tawheed will ever deny that only Allah(swt) is 100% infallible.


if any muslim believe MUHAMMAD Sallel La Hu Alahi Wa Sallim is not 100% right always from begening till end he or she is not MUMIN
awal
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poga
 
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Quote poga Replybullet Posted: 12 February 2008 at 12:28am
Originally posted by Ron Webb

Originally posted by Angel

What makes you think that Muhammed did not command/ask his companions to write down the hadiths?

I was going to quote Wikipedia on this, but since I've already said they are "not infallible", here's a different (and maybe less biased) source:

In Hadith literature, there are hadiths that forbid and others that permit the writing down of hadiths, which often causes a confusion for some people.

Prophet Muhammad once said,

"Do not write from me anything except the Qur'an and whosoever has written anything from me other than the Qur'an should erase it." (Al-Bukhari)

By this hadith Prophet Muhammad actually meant that nothing should be written with the Qur'an on the same sheet, as this might lead to mixing the text of the Qur'an with that of the Hadith. This command was given when the Qur'an was being revealed piecemeal and was still incomplete.

Another interpretation of the hadith is that it was forbidden to write down hadiths in early days because all attention was to be paid to the Qur'an and its preservation.

Then later on, when there was no fear of abandoning the Qur'an, the previous order was abrogated and the Companions were permitted to write down hadiths. On the other hand, there is evidence that Prophet Muhammad approved of writing down his hadiths.

http://www.readingislam.com/servlet/Satellite?c=Article_C&am p;am p;cid=1188044001762&pagename=Zone-English-Discover_Islam %2FDIELayout 

At best, this is another example of a hadith obviously directed only at the Prophet's contemporaries and not meant to be applicable today.  At worst, it could be interpreted as invalidating the whole collection.


ron come to me as for why AL HADITH beside AL QURAN  i have given you above
now i am saying MUHAMMAD Sallel La Hu Alahi Wa Sallim is 100% infallible
and i do not need AL QURAN or AL HADIS to prove it i will only going to use your fabricated BIBLE and my Factual SWEETSWORDS
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rami
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Quote rami Replybullet Posted: 12 February 2008 at 1:21am
Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem

The second definition is what I mean,

All his teachings were infallible since he taught ONLY what allah taught him and this is clear in the Quran "he speaks nothing from his desire".

He didnt simply recite the quran, reciting something does not equate to knowledge it simply means you know how to speak. Allah gave him "knowledge" "Wisdom" "experience" about the verses contained in the Quran and this he passed on perfectly.

The phrasing "all his statements" if you hadn't realised encompasses not only Islamic teachings but everyday talk such as i like the colour blue, or "hey did you see the nicks game the other day". Allah in the Quran did not fault him in what he taught, he found fault in him ignoring a blind man who asked him questions while he was meeting with the leaders of Quraish [the main group of people who the muslims were at war with].

I also think you are blind in your analysis and unrealistic becouse many statements from ordinary people can be true for all time depending on the subject matter, but you somehow think that NOTHING the prophet said can be true after 1400 years. this is the worst kind of ignorance becouse once you actually admit that some of what he said is relevant due to the timeless nature of the subject matter your position of not using ANY ahadith falls to pieces.

if only some statements can be relied upon, then how can we know which ones?

The scholars have gone through all the ahadith and categorised all his statements to being personnel to him alone or actual teachings about islam, its not that hard but there have been some small cases of confusion due to differences of opinions but this is the exception and not the rule.

"I'm infallible whenever I'm right, and any false statements don't count."

NO, if you go to a lecture at university and listen to a lecturer talking about a subject you can differentiate between when the lecturer is talking about the subject or goes of on a tangent or simply starts talking about his personnel life. when he is talking about the subject of the lecture his speech in that regard can be said to be infallible [unless he personnaly makes a mistake in conveying the knowledge or the knowledge itself that he was given was wrong, think maths if it helps you understand the idea of infallible types of knowledge] but when he talks about his personnel life that is his opinion.

When the prophet talked about religion he was teaching what allah taught him, the Quran isnt simply words those words have a meaning and contain knowledge [assume for a second you believe it is divine], when he was talking about his personnel life ["did you see that camel race the other week"] that was his opinion, he may have had a much more perfect view of reality than other people but he was not absolutely perfect and the example of the Blind man was an example of this.

If the Prophet talks about family, or about war, or about beards, or whatever, how do we know that this is timeless doctrine and not simply recommendations to his contemporaries in the seventh century?

Because he was a prophet sent to teach people islam he commanded certain things and advised certain things, what he commanded is applicable for muslims for all time what he advised is left up to your discretion. You are also thinking of these subjects in terms of a fashion trend, the commands and advice he gave were for different reasons, some of it was for spiritual benefit [eg beard, praying, fasting, zakkat] others were for worldly benefits such as physical health, environmental conservation, family wellbeing and harmony.

It depends on the subject matter and that is what im trying to make you see that most of what he taught had a timeless nature becouse  the subject matter itself was timeless while other topics such as warfare does change overtime but the actions he took or things he said you can extract principles of law from, which can be applied to different situations at different times.

So the fact that time has changed certain things does not mean the principles or wisdom behind certain actions he took cant teach you anything. This subject is a very deep and com
plex discussion but all this has already been investigate by the scholars and have we the conclusions of that 1400 year research.

what you cant say is that the ahadith are no longer relevant becouse to anyone who has some knowledge of the sciences involved in this subject your proposition is just ridiculous.

It wasn't that long after his death that his companions came across situations that had not occurred while he was alive so they did ijtihad [independent legal reasoning] with the Quran and sunnah as the foundation to deal with these situations. I cant sit here and explain to you the mechanics of law [not that i am capable of it] so you will have to look into the matter your self to truly understand how im just pointing you in the right direction.

the statements he specifically commanded his followers not to write, i.e. the hadith, were not intended to be recorded for all time.

well here is another hadith in which he commands his followers to wrtie ahadith,

Imam Ahmad [one of the four most renowned islamic scholars in history] recorded that `Abdullah bin `Amr said, "I used to record everything I heard from the Messenger of Allah so it would be preserved. The Quraysh discouraged me from this, saying, `You record everything you hear from the Messenger of Allah , even though he is human and sometimes speaks when he is angry' I stopped recording the Hadiths for a while, but later mentioned what they said to the Messenger of Allah , who said, (Write! By He in Whose Hand is my soul, every word that comes out of me is the Truth.)'' Abu Dawud [author of one of the 6 most authentic hadith collections]  also collected this Hadith.


Your own post explains why some ahadith have him saying write and  others have him saying dont write.

By this hadith Prophet Muhammad actually meant that nothing should be written with the Qur'an on the same sheet, as this might lead to mixing the text of the Qur'an with that of the Hadith. This command was given when the Qur'an was being revealed piecemeal and was still incomplete.

At the beginning of Islam the Muslims were having trouble differentiating  between his words and the Quran but as the Insight and knowledge grew it was very obvious which was which.

This is an excellent source to learn from about ahadith them selfs,

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Hadith/


Edited by rami
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
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layalee
 
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Quote layalee Replybullet Posted: 12 February 2008 at 6:42am

Originally posted by poga

Originally posted by layalee

No muslim that has taken the shahada and believe, and have a basic understanding of Tawheed will ever deny that only Allah(swt) is 100% infallible.


if any muslim believe MUHAMMAD Sallel La Hu Alahi Wa Sallim is not 100% right always from begening till end he or she is not MUMIN

My statement is not to say that the righteousness of the prophet Muhammad (p.b.uh.) was any less. The Quran itself state he was sinless. But by no means can I place our prophet on the same level as Allah(swt).

The phopet was infallible as a prophet.

but when I think of TOTAL perfection, I think of Allah(swt).

May this clarify my statement, Insha'Allah.

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poga
 
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Quote poga Replybullet Posted: 12 February 2008 at 12:50pm
Originally posted by layalee

Originally posted by poga

Originally posted by layalee

No muslim that has taken the shahada and believe, and have a basic understanding of Tawheed will ever deny that only Allah(swt) is 100% infallible.


if any muslim believe MUHAMMAD Sallel La Hu Alahi Wa Sallim is not 100% right always from begening till end he or she is not MUMIN

My statement is not to say that the righteousness of the prophet Muhammad (p.b.uh.) was any less. The Quran itself state he was sinless. But by no means can I place our prophet on the same level as Allah(swt).

The phopet was infallible as a prophet.

but when I think of TOTAL perfection, I think of Allah(swt).

May this clarify my statement, Insha'Allah.

ASSALAMUALAIKUM

laylee ALLAH is not perfect nor ALLAH is imperfect

it is ALLAH who creates perfection and all limitation he is ABSULUTE

i understood you perfectly sister we all are just MUSLIM but we need to be like SHAHABA to become MUMIN

there is big difference in this two

we who are born in MUSLIM house and learn and accept ISLAM or who are born in non muslim family and learn about ISLAM and become MUSLIM

we all have to go long way to become MUMIN

i hope this will clarify my point JAZAKHALLAH KHAIR

poga Say's in a foolington maze

Unequal is unique unlike alike or opposite
Unequal is unique there is nothing like it
Unequal is unique unlike anything like it
Unequal is like every moment
Like this instant no other opposite
Unequal is unique there is nothing like it

unequal is ALLAH la illah illel la MUHAMMADUR RASULULLAH

 

from SWEETSWORDS 18 [ Compass ]

 

 



Edited by poga
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layalee
 
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Quote layalee Replybullet Posted: 12 February 2008 at 12:52pm
thank you poga for sharing your point
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