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Islam for non-Muslims
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Ron Webb
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 07 February 2008 at 4:20pm

Originally posted by layalee

What exactly is a internet jihad??

It's a topic worthy of a separate discussion, and the Islamic Interfaith Dialogue section might be a more appropriate place.  Not sure I'll have time tonight though.

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rami
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Quote rami Replybullet Posted: 08 February 2008 at 7:46am
Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem

I don't disagree that he would have been accurate in explaining the Quran and conveying its wisdom within the context of the seventh century.

Your assuming what that means.

"Universality is the quality ascribed to an entity whose existence is consistent throughout the universe. In philosophy, universalism is a doctrine or school in which it is claimed that universal facts can be discovered and which is understood then as being in opposition to relativism. When used in the context of ethics, the meaning of universal refers to that which is true for "all similarly situated individuals". [1] Rights, for example in natural rights, or in the 1789 Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen, for those heavily influenced by the philosophy of the Enlightenment and its conception of a human nature, could be considered as universal. The 1948 Universal Declaration of Human Rights is inspired by such principles.

In logic, or the consideration of valid arguments, a proposition is said to have universality if it can be conceived as being true in all possible contexts without creating a contradiction. Some philosophers have referred to such propositions as universalizable. Truth is considered to be universal if it is valid in all times and places. In this case, it is seen as eternal or as absolute. The relativist conception denies the existence of some or all universal truths, particularly ethical ones (through moral relativism). Mathematics is a field in which those truths discovered, in relation to the field of mathematics, are typically considerered of universal scope. Usage of the word truth has various domains of application, relativism does not necessarily apply to all of them."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universality_(philosophy)

Allah is now as he ever was he does not change grow, he exists without beginning and has no end. When the prophet [sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam] talks about allah, his atributes, his creation, his heaven, hell, creation it nature, moral teachings and many other things they have a Universal unchanging nature, they are truth now as they where 1400 years ago and 1400 years from now. will you now say we should only ignore the parts that we dont need?

Reasonable?  I think it's absolutely essential that you, or someone like you, start "defending the faith" on mainstream Internet discussion forums -- not with hostility, but with clear explanations and reasoned argument.  If I could convince you of only one thing, I wish it could be that.

Its not hostility that you sense in my post but maybe slight frustration, to me and other muslims who have a familiarity with the religion its all common sense, well based on other information also.

some of us have done what you ask but believe argumentation wears down most people especially the ones who are conscious of there moral state.

I do what I can, but I'm obviously unqualified for the job.  Please reread my introductory message and consider it seriously.  Don't you think it's time for an "Internet Jihad"?

i hadn't read your introductory thread before but the moral choice that you made is universally right in all religions

Its not easy to see common sense especially when its just easier to hate and conform.

whether his interpretation of the Quran could have taken into account the different circumstances in which we live today.

He was shown the future and spoke about it [as we have them recorded in many ahadith] so he was well aware of what was going to happen after his time up until the time we enter Heaven. 

Omniscient in the sense that the Prophet's rulings in the seventh century could take into account the circumstances in which we live today. 

You can not use such a sweeping genralisation to invalidate 23 years of prophethood, it makes sense in and of itself but doesn't hold water when you investigate it.

I asked you if prayer was different, Hajj, Fasting, Zakkat, Human nature! and you unjustifiably answered yes. There are many topics that the prophet [sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam] discussed that are still exactly the same 1400 years later, if he didnt mention something specifically he certainly established the moral foundations for every single situation that a man will ever find him self in, without exaggeration.

I am talking about things you havnt read or learnt regarding islam, you cant deny something simply because you havnt learnt it yet as you yourself admit your knowledge is limited. Dont say "it"cant be true ask how is it true.

Regarding every new thing that has come up which he didn't specifically mention we have something in islam called Ijtihad [Independant legal reasoning], this act [in an extremely simplistic explanation] entails deducing legal rulings from the Quran and sunnah to deal with new situations that have not come up specifically beffore, the prophet himself instructed his companions to do this when he was sending them to different lands, he said first look in the Quran for answers if you can not find it there then my sunnah [which includes all recorded ahadith] then if you can not find your answer there perform ijtihad using the prvious two as you foundation.

Infallible in the sense that he never made a mistake in his entire life.

A mistake in judgment [as in between two different courses of action] then yes and its clearly stated in the Quran, regarding what he instructed people in regards to the religion then no he was infallible as allah helped him in this and it is stated very clearly in the Quran, "this day i have perfected your religion for you", a claim of perfection that can not be maid if anything wrong in regards to religion had been said. There are plenty of other verses i can quote but i am trying to keep it short.

What exactly is not relevant 1400 years later?

rami's response was (among other things) that the planet is capable of supporting still more people and resources would not be scarce if we conserved them better.  I disagree --

I think you havnt been outside of canada. can you specify for me the islamic principles regarding eating and conservation of the environment that you just disagreed with?

I think the planet is already overpopulated -- but even if he's right, it should be obvious that at some point we will have too many people on this planet and it will be necessary to limit family size.  Policies that encourage population growth indefinitely are not sustainable.

if this where to go on indefinitely then i would agree with you but since our religion, most religions, teach that this world is temporary then i can not.

Allah has said regarding abortion that we should not kill our children in fear of being unable to sustain them as he has taken it upon himself to do so. This is of course a general statement but since allah is Omniscient i am certain he knows the exact time when this world can not sustain us even if we are doing all the right things.

Yes, the Quran did say to obey the Prophet, but the Prophet (peace be upon him) is dead.  To blindly continue following his orders 1400 years later is like nailing the rudder of a ship in its last position after the captain dies.  The river continues to twist and turn, the currents run this way and that, but Islam sails on blindly into ever more treacherous waters.  It was great to have the Prophet at the helm in the beginning, but now that he is gone we need to find our own way, and the Quran (which is complete and explained in detail) ought to be sufficient guide.

just because the analogy makes sense in and of itself does not mean it is a correct analogy regarding the sunnah. Once again i will state the obvious truth that while Christian Europe was in the dark ages Islamic civilization was the most advanced in the world and all under Islamic rule. History and experience if nothing else [as you dont seem  to be interested in understanding how or why] proves you wrong.

if you like visit http://www.muslimheritage.com/ to learn more.

As I said, I don't know much about the content of the hadith, but I already know from the Quran that the Prophet is capable of error because the Quran tells us in Sura 80 that he wrongly ignored a blind man who came to him for instruction.

This was a mistake in deciding between two paths [if you know the entire story you will see] not an error in instructing his followers about religion which is a more serious mistake and not once did Allah say he did such a thing.

Put this into perspective, he decided to pay attention to the nobles of Quraish, becouse if he was to win them over entire wars would cease, than to answer the Questions of an old blind man. For this mistake allah reveals a verse in the Quran sancturing him, can you imagine if he had said anything wrong about the religion itself.



Edited by rami
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
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Ron Webb
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 08 February 2008 at 8:08pm

 

Originally posted by rami

Reasonable?  I think it's absolutely essential that you, or someone like you, start "defending the faith" on mainstream Internet discussion forums -- not with hostility, but with clear explanations and reasoned argument.  If I could convince you of only one thing, I wish it could be that.

Its not hostility that you sense in my post but maybe slight frustration, to me and other muslims who have a familiarity with the religion its all common sense, well based on other information also.
 

Don't get me wrong, rami.  I'm not sensing any hostility from you.  I meant that "defending the faith" should not be done with hostility, which would be counterproductive.

I asked you if prayer was different, Hajj, Fasting, Zakkat, Human nature! and you unjustifiably answered yes.

Fasting would be different for a Muslim living in the high Arctic ("the land of the midnight sun") because it would be impossible to follow the traditional rules. The experience of hajj is very different today, because of the sheer numbers of Muslims converging in a single place, as well as the greater distances involved, air travel, security, etc. Family life is significantly altered by modern contraceptive methods, in vitro fertilization, and soon cloning. Theft now includes theft of intellectual property (or does it?). Even death itself is hard to define when modern life support systems can keep a corpse "alive" almost indefinitely. And so on.

The questions haven't changed (mostly), but the answers certainly have.

I am talking about things you havnt read or learnt regarding islam, you cant deny something simply because you havnt learnt it yet as you yourself admit your knowledge is limited. Dont say "it"cant be true ask how is it true.

Okay, "how is it true" that the rules for fasting are the same in Grise Fiord (76 degrees north latitude) as they are in Mecca?

just because the analogy makes sense in and of itself does not mean it is a correct analogy regarding the sunnah. Once again i will state the obvious truth that while Christian Europe was in the dark ages Islamic civilization was the most advanced in the world and all under Islamic rule. History and experience if nothing else [as you dont seem  to be interested in understanding how or why] proves you wrong.

Oh please, rami!  History and experience proves that Islamic civilizations have been in steep decline ever since the modern era, while most of the advanced nations are predominantly Christian.  That's not to say I'm enthralled with Christianity, but at least it's kept up with the times.

As I said, I don't know much about the content of the hadith, but I already know from the Quran that the Prophet is capable of error because the Quran tells us in Sura 80 that he wrongly ignored a blind man who came to him for instruction.

This was a mistake in deciding between two paths [if you know the entire story you will see] not an error in instructing his followers about religion which is a more serious mistake and not once did Allah say he did such a thing.

It was a mistake.  That is all that matters.  It shows that the Prophet is not infallible.  If he could make a mistake in deciding between two paths for himself, he could make a mistake in deciding for someone else; and if he did that and someone wrote it down (as the Prophet specifically forbade his followers to do, for exactly this reason), then that error would be incorporated into the hadith.  Only the Quran, the literal words of Allah, can be regarded as infallible.

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layalee
 
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Quote layalee Replybullet Posted: 08 February 2008 at 9:47pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb

Okay, "how is it true" that the rules for fasting are the same in Grise Fiord (76 degrees north latitude) as they are in Mecca?

Are you sure of that?? or are you making assumptions......

Q [IRC Addis Ababa]: Dr. Awol Idris: Ramadan uses the lunar calendar and the times for sihur and iftar are suggested to take place before sunrise and at sunset respectively. This may not be a problem around the equator where the day and the night are kind of equal in length - roughly 12 hours each. This is true of Saudi Arabia where Islam started. But, further up to the north or further down to the south, how do people break their fast or have the sihur when the sun may be still up on the horizon for as long as 18 hours or more? How do you do it in the US, in this connection?

A [Imam Arafat]: The communities begin and break the fast according to the normal timing of the closest city to them. This is particular to Muslims living in Alaska

http://www.america.gov/st/washfile-english/2007/October/2007 1005170059xjsnommis0.5716516.html

all information should be verified by your local imam of course...

This is a prime example of why one need to do research and gain knowledge on certain islamic concepts, rituals, etc, before they make false assumptions about Islam.

Contrary to what you make think, I do not feel as if Islam prohibits one from engaging in a modern life. Islam do however allow for muslims to live a simple life.

The keys and advice to living a good,enjoyable life free from sin as a muslim did not come with a expiration date.

Nor is Islam all about 'rules' that must be followed.

Behind every valid hadith or ayat, their is a reason, a joyous message in my opnion.

It is with faith that one begins to appreciate and understand the message.

The choice is all up to the invidual of course and the grace of Allah(swt).

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Quote Nur_Ilahi Replybullet Posted: 09 February 2008 at 5:11am

Hi Ron,

The only difference in fasting in the Arctic, would be the shorter hours of daylight. Basically there is no difference.

As to population, the world can and would be able to accomodate more people, if repeat IF the humankind in this world are not greedy. It is not the fault of the Prophet that humankind are greedy, humankind are egoistic, humankind are not charitable. If they were to follow the guidelines of the Prophet, InshaAllah - God willing, there would be no poor people in this world. But then Satan will not sit still and see humankind live in harmony without him doing his evil part.

Islamic civilisation was at the peak when its followers were not only expert in knowledge of this world during the day but they were also sufis or humble servants of God during the night. In other words they were near perfect human who had knowledge of this world and knowledge of the hereafter.

However nowadays Muslims either are expert in one field that is the Islamic knowledge or their expertise is in worldly knowledge. Rarely we see a Muslim scientist who is also an expert in the Shariah or Islamic Knowledge. That is the downfall of Islam. Whatever it is, the core knowledge of modern science and Mathematics were derived from Muslims in the early days of Islam due to the piety of these people.

Will continue later. Salam.

Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 09 February 2008 at 8:07am

Originally posted by Nur_Ilahi

The only difference in fasting in the Arctic, would be the shorter hours of daylight. Basically there is no difference.

In Grise Fiord the sun never sets from May to August.  I think that would make a difference.

Originally posted by layalee

Originally posted by Ron Webb

Okay, "how is it true" that the rules for fasting are the same in Grise Fiord (76 degrees north latitude) as they are in Mecca?

Are you sure of that?? or are you making assumptions......

Q [IRC Addis Ababa]: Dr. Awol Idris: Ramadan uses the lunar calendar and the times for sihur and iftar are suggested to take place before sunrise and at sunset respectively. This may not be a problem around the equator where the day and the night are kind of equal in length - roughly 12 hours each. This is true of Saudi Arabia where Islam started. But, further up to the north or further down to the south, how do people break their fast or have the sihur when the sun may be still up on the horizon for as long as 18 hours or more? How do you do it in the US, in this connection?

A [Imam Arafat]: The communities begin and break the fast according to the normal timing of the closest city to them. This is particular to Muslims living in Alaska.

I am not making assumptions, but apparently Imam Arafat is.  In Fairbanks, Alaska (surely a city by anyone's definition), the sun is above the horizon for nearly 22 hours a day near the summer solstice.

Anyway, the Imam is simply confirming my point.  A Muslim could not reasonably be expected to follow the traditional rules for fasting in Fairbanks, much less Grise Fiord.

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Quote rami Replybullet Posted: 09 February 2008 at 9:08am
Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem

you are stepping into the area of islamic law, most certainly you have little to no knowledge to be making ridiculous assumptions about our religion. If you dont mind stick to what you have learnt as apposed to assuming the basis for what we practice.

you could sit there and nit pick and i could sit here and reply to your questions or you could go learn about the matter properly.

You seem to want to throw out the baby with the bath water or rather all religion as soon as you think you have stumbled across an issue which you cant solve with what ever knowledge you have about our religion.

the only people who have to deal with 6 month day light are people who live in such areas, for the other 99.9999% of muslims on earth who dont face extreme conditions the laws are exactly the same and it doesnt matter if the day 6 hours long in one place and 12 hours in another its measured by sunrise and sunset not length of time.

for those who live in these extreme conditions they can measure what is reasonably considered the length of one day and work with it, they do the same with the prayer which is also contingent on the movement of the sun....all of which oddly enough our prophet [sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam] instructed us on, he lived in the desert traveled no further than Syria and yet knew there would be people in this world who would experience such things.



Edited by rami
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
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Ron Webb
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 09 February 2008 at 11:04am

rami, if I have shown you that the Prophet (peace be upon him) is even 0.0001% fallible, or that the Hadith are even 0.0001% inapplicable today, then I would count that as progress.



Edited by Ron Webb
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