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Islam for non-Muslims
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Ron Webb
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 06 February 2008 at 7:52pm
Originally posted by rami

The source of the Quran is Allah.  The source of the hadith is Mohammed.

The source of the knowledge in the hadith is Allah, how good or accurate was the prophet at explaining the Quran and conveying its wisdom.....well the very chapter you quote unequivocally answers that.

I don't disagree that he would have been accurate in explaining the Quran and conveying its wisdom within the context of the seventh century.  My questions were whether he was infallible when he went beyond the Quran, and whether his interpretation of the Quran could have taken into account the different circumstances in which we live today.  If I understand you correctly, your answers are that he was indeed infallible, and that nothing significant has changed in fourteen centuries.  I find that surprising and I don't see it in the Quran, but I guess we'll have to leave it at that.

i have seen these sites before they are very inaccurate, do you think it is reasonable to go to people with an agenda against islam and ask to learn about Islam.

Reasonable?  I think it's absolutely essential that you, or someone like you, start "defending the faith" on mainstream Internet discussion forums -- not with hostility, but with clear explanations and reasoned argument.  If I could convince you of only one thing, I wish it could be that.

I do what I can, but I'm obviously unqualified for the job.  Please reread my introductory message and consider it seriously.  Don't you think it's time for an "Internet Jihad"?

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Quote Nur_Ilahi Replybullet Posted: 06 February 2008 at 8:15pm

Hi Ron,

To understand the Indispensibility of a hadith, here is the link.
http://www.islaam.com/Article.aspx?id=232

Muhammad was sent not only as a physical guide but also as a spiritual guide. A Mercy for the whole of creation.

"The beginning of existence was an act of mercy and compassion. Without mercy the universe would be in chaos. Everything has come into existence through compassion and by compassion it continues to exist in harmony.

Muslim sages say: ‘The universe is the breath of the All-Compassionate One’. That is, the universe was created as a manifestation of God’s Name, the All-Compassionate. Its subsistence depends on the same Name. This Name manifests itself, first of all, as the All-Provider so as to secure the subsistence or survival of living creatures through food or nourishment. Besides, life is the foremost and most manifest blessing of God Almighty, and the true and everlasting life is the life of the Hereafter. Since man can deserve this life by acting in a way to please God, God sent Prophets and revealed Scriptures out of His compassion for mankind. For this reason, while mentioning His blessings upon mankind in the sura al-Rahman (the All-Merciful) in the Qur’an, He begins:

Al-Rahman (the All-Merciful). He taught the Qur’an. He created man. He taught him speech. (al-Rahman, 55.1-4)

All aspects of this life are a rehearsal for the afterlife and every creature is engaged in action to this end. In every effort order is evident and in every achievement compassion resides. Some ‘natural’ events or social convulsions in the human order which seem to man disagreeable at first sight should not be regarded as incompatible with compassion. They are like dark clouds or lightning and thunder, which, although frightening for man, bring us good tidings of rain. Thus, the whole universe, from minutest particles to gigantic galaxies, sings the praises of the All-Compassionate.

The universe is, in the language of Muslim sages, God’s ‘created book’ issued from His Attribute of Will. To write a book which no one could understand would be an exertion in vain and God is absolutely beyond such futility. So, He created Muhammad, upon him be peace and blessings, one who would instruct people in the meaning of the universe. Second, He taught man His Commandments through Muhammad in the Qur’an. Only by acting in accordance with these Commandments can man gain an eternal life of happiness. The Qur’an is the ultimate and most comprehensive form of Divine Revelation, Islam is the last, perfected and universal form of Divine Religions, and the Prophet Muhammad, upon him be peace and blessings, is the embodiment of Divine Compassion, one whom God sent not save as a mercy for all the worlds.

The Prophet Muhammad, upon him be peace and blessings, is like a spring of pure water in the heart of a desert, or like a source of light in the darkness enveloping the universe. Whoever appeals to this spring can take as much water as to quench his thirst and is purified of all his dirt or pollution, spiritual or intellectual, and illumined with the light of belief.

Mercy was alike a magical key in the hands of God’s Messenger, upon him be peace and blessings. He opened with this key the doors of the hearts so hardened and rusty as one thought it was impossible to open them, and lighted a torch of belief in them.

http://islambyquestions.net/moreAbout/Mercy.htm

Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.
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Andalus
 
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Quote Andalus Replybullet Posted: 06 February 2008 at 8:52pm
Originally posted by believer

follow hadith when the Quran is supposed to be complete?

Is it possible that Mohammad was not finnished when he died?

Your question is a complex question (a fallacy) as it implies disparity where it does not exist. Just as the Torah was never meant to be interpreted without the oral tradition, the Quran is a part of two distinct revelations that are tied together. The Quran is a part of the "recited" revelation. This is the direct words of God, literally the speech of God. Not inspired words, or special words, but the actual speech of God.

The hadith consist of narratives, some of which particularize generalizations in the Quran, explain meanings, and clarify the application of rulings. The hadith consist of "unrecited" revelation, not a part of the quran, given that the Quran is only the "recited" revelation, or better yet, the actual literal "speech of God".

The fact that hadith were complied before his death, and that the Quran was complete before the death of the prophet (saw), the notion that one is evidence that the other was not completed is absurd and not plausible.

A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/
http://www.pt-go.com/
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Andalus
 
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Quote Andalus Replybullet Posted: 06 February 2008 at 9:02pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb

Originally posted by rami

The Quran instructs us to do many things one major thing is to follow the advice of the prophet.

Is the prophet omniscient and infallible? 

Islam teaches that only God is truly omniscient. Infallible in what way?

 

 The advice that he gave to his followers in Arabia 1400 years ago may have been wise and good for that time and place, but the world has changed dramatically.  How could he have known what would be wise and good for a Muslim living today?

What exactly is not relevant 1400 years later?

Surely only Allah is perfect, and only His advice (i.e., the Quran) is timeless.  It seems to me that by treating the words of the prophet as equal to those of Allah Himself you risk making the prophet into another god.

The Quran states in multiple passages to obey Allah and His Messenger (saw). Could you point out an example where something the Prophet (saw) ordered or explained was contrary to what God would teach?

A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/
http://www.pt-go.com/
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Ron Webb
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 07 February 2008 at 6:33am
Originally posted by Andalus

Islam teaches that only God is truly omniscient. Infallible in what way?

Omniscient in the sense that the Prophet's rulings in the seventh century could take into account the circumstances in which we live today.  Infallible in the sense that he never made a mistake in his entire life.

What exactly is not relevant 1400 years later?

I replied to rami as follows: "I believe (please correct me if I'm wrong) that the Prophet encouraged large families.  That may have made sense fourteen centuries ago because infant mortality was extremely high, the global population was small and resources were plentiful.  But now babies almost always live to adulthood, life expectancy has doubled or tripled, the planet has almost reached its capacity and resources are becoming scarce.  If the Prophet were alive today, do you think he would still be encouraging large families?  Why?"

rami's response was (among other things) that the planet is capable of supporting still more people and resources would not be scarce if we conserved them better.  I disagree -- I think the planet is already overpopulated -- but even if he's right, it should be obvious that at some point we will have too many people on this planet and it will be necessary to limit family size.  Policies that encourage population growth indefinitely are not sustainable.

The Quran states in multiple passages to obey Allah and His Messenger (saw).

Yes, the Quran did say to obey the Prophet, but the Prophet (peace be upon him) is dead.  To blindly continue following his orders 1400 years later is like nailing the rudder of a ship in its last position after the captain dies.  The river continues to twist and turn, the currents run this way and that, but Islam sails on blindly into ever more treacherous waters.  It was great to have the Prophet at the helm in the beginning, but now that he is gone we need to find our own way, and the Quran (which is complete and explained in detail) ought to be sufficient guide.

Could you point out an example where something the Prophet (saw) ordered or explained was contrary to what God would teach?

As I said, I don't know much about the content of the hadith, but I already know from the Quran that the Prophet is capable of error because the Quran tells us in Sura 80 that he wrongly ignored a blind man who came to him for instruction.

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Quote layalee Replybullet Posted: 07 February 2008 at 7:39am

Originally posted by Ron Webb

I do what I can, but I'm obviously unqualified for the job. Please reread my introductory message and consider it seriously. Don't you think it's time for an "Internet Jihad"?

Part of your introduction-

Originally posted by Ron Webb

But it occurs to me that the critics have a point. Muslim organizations are quick to issue press releases (which are just as quickly ignored) -- but where are the moderate Muslims themselves? Why is it that I have almost never encountered individual Muslims on mainstream discussion boards, defending their own religion?

Al-Baqarah:6

2:6) Those-who have disbelieved- it being equal to them whether thou warn them or warn them not -they will not believe.

There are several types of non- muslims individuals that visit and particpate in forums-- here are just the main ones I run across( even though their are others)

a) Non-muslims that will take verses from the Quran or Islamic concepts and twist it around so that they are negative, mean, and totally contradicts the love and wisdom that Allah(swt) has for us and the wonderful message that Mohhammed(p.b.u.h) provides to others.

There actions are mainly done out of ignorance. So, to cover up their ignorance instead of just admiting 'they do not know' or admit 'I just don't understand', they will instead bash and throw out negative comments. It is more satisfying to their ego to simply hate what they can not understand. No matter how much a muslim or even a non-muslim like the one you claim to be, try to show them that Islam is for peace, that Islam is loving, that muslims do (or should) believe in the Unity of God- it will never reach them, they are too caught up in hate and having a closed heart and mind.

b) You have non-muslims that are not 'believers' but they are open to sincerely knowing more about Islam, perhaps it is a individual that grew up mostly in a society that had few muslim citizens. Their reasons for particpating in a forum is to maybe see what misconceptions of Islam are true, and which ones are not true( at least in their eyes). Some of these individuals like to 'compare' their beliefs with Islam- for various reasons. While sometimes such individuals show signs of ignorance based on comments they make, their intentions are not to be hurtful. These individuals will often apologize if they make offensive comments. I also find that these individuals have no intention of converting over to Islam. They simply come to forums to 'learn' more.

c) You have the non-muslims that simply love to debate. These individuals carry various forms of knowledge. Some are very intelligent and some have barely finished basic schooling. They will debate on any islamic concept you can think of. Some do their 'homework' before approaching a debate, then you have some that shows their ignorance in the first sentence they type. Regardless of the type though, these individuals approach forums sometimes simply for a challenge, or sometimes to satisfy the ego, by debating until they come out 'on top'.

d) You have the non-muslims that join a forum to learn more about Islam to determine if they should convert.

e) You have the non-muslim that is determine to show muslims the 'right way'. These individuals want to 'save' the muslims from 'our ways of error'. These non-muslims come to forums belonging to various forms of faiths. They 'come in peace' and their quest is to simply show us the 'true meaning of life'. In their eyes, it's not through Islam. Or they perhaps have their own method on teaching us on how we should be approaching Islam and how we should be aprroaching the Quran ( despite the fact these 'teachers' are not even muslims?!). They try to make us open our eyes, so that we will no longer live ' in the dark ages'. ( Sound familar?--I will touch base on that later.)

So...Ron..

When a muslim go on a quest of defending their religon. I think one has to first consider who they are approaching and what are the possible outcomes. There are some examples of non-muslims that I named that I will not waste my time and effort on. For example, non-muslim 'A'- The one that develop hateful messages on forums and websites. Most of these individuals are rude in their approach to others. They are 'stuck' in their beliefs, and no matter what you say to them they will remain the way they are. Individuals such as these have existed since the begining of time, and until the final hour.

I would rather use my time and energy discussing matters with muslims or engaging in conversations with non-muslims that sincerly want to know more about Islam. My main concern is not if a non-muslim converts over- that is their choice- if I know a non-muslim is sincere and come with good intentions then all I can really hope for is that they gain 'the right information' .That they have the opportunity of gaining more knowledge that can help benefit their lives.

. In this day and age their are countless amounts of info on the basics of Islam. Majority of the time individuals remain ignorant because they choose to. If muslim 'B' or 'D' can take the time and look for information for themselves, by joining forums, asking sincere questions, reading about the basics of Islam- even if it's is just wikepedia- at least I can say they are trying. They are attempting to learn more about the diverse world around them and be open-minded, shed away the stereotypes they may have believed in for so long.

non-Muslim 'C'. the ones that loves to debate. Another individual that I simply don't have the time and energy to waste on. They are not trying to learn anything. They debate for a sport, for a game. Instead of engaging in useless debate with these individuals, again I rather be discussing matters and holding friendly debates with non-muslim 'B' or 'D'.

What exactly is a internet jihad??

29:46- 'And argue not with the People of the Book except with what is best; but argue not at all with such of them as are unjust.-.....'

By no means am I against muslims teaching others the postive message and true meaning of Islam. I'm also not against muslims defending Islam in appopriate manner when ignorant, untruthful comments about Islam are made.

But, when I think of the term internet Jihad, it sounds as if it's a crusade to stop the non-believers from bashing the islamic religion- even though such a task in my opinion will be endless, because the internet is a medium that has few regulations, allows total freedom of speach . Internet Jihad sounds like a crusade of Muslims that should float around non-islamic boards attempting to give Dawah to non-believers that simply want to argue for the sake of arguing, to attempt to convince a non-believer that already has a closed mind and heart.. A muslim going on a internet jihad, is similar to a individual trying to fight internet spam-. Perhaps the intentions are good, but the individual will never reach their goal. You 'fight' one group, you only have another that will 'pop' up and the endless task simply go around in circles.

The best way to have a internet jihad is to do more then develop a defense based on words on the internet. The best way that a muslim can particpate in Jihad is by always showing their best character. To showcase to observers that despite all the stereotypes and misconceptions we remain to stand proud in upholding our beliefs.Despite any type of negativity that is broadcasted on the news, internet, newspaper, etc- a muslim with strong faith will never fall victim to such traps.Our peaceful postive character does more to contradict ignorant statements to the observers, then words will ever achieve.

So Ron, when you go on a mission of defending Islam to non-believers what is usually the outcome? Are you achieving your goals? Do you not find a big difference between a non-believer that will never change their views no matter what you say to them, versus the non-believers that sincerly have a desire to learn more beyond the stereotypes? Do you think that either group lack more infomation and resources of the true meaning of Islam, then the other?? Dd you have to have a muslim internet jihadist turn you around to show you a 'glimpse' of true Islam? What make these individuals any different then you? If their are any differences, then why is it essential that I or any other muslim should try to change them?

p.s- i'm sorry Believer ( I'm refering to the forum member) and everyone else for taking the original posting off topic...

 

 



Edited by layalee
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poga
 
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Quote poga Replybullet Posted: 07 February 2008 at 8:12am

Mrs Be Aql Khan Usta : ALLAH Said read by name of your lord who teaches by pen
And he said it to MUHAMMAD Sallel La Hu Alahi Wa Sallim the illiterate human
Now one who needs to learn he must read
Reading is divine decree all must pay heed
Now if reading is so important then why GOD choose illiterate MUHAMMAD
Was it because oh BARZAKH there was no need to read because MUHAMMAD could hear the word of the GOD

Mr Barzakh Fitrath Ullah : The Greatest MUWALLIM
MUHAMMAD Sallel La Hu Alahi Wa Sallim
His example is the like of pen
A pen writes every learning without being learned at any kindergarten
He was the pen with whom ALLAH chose to write
On the scale of creation about its wrongs and right
Therefore learn oh  BE AQL station of MUHAMMAD Sallel La Hu Alahi Wa Sallam
Words of ALLAH is his QAALAM and MUHAMMAD Sallael La Hu Alahi Wa Sallim is his QOLOM
So as AL QURAN Say's read by name of your lord it is saying it is written
And ALLAH Say's in AL QURAN the first thing he created was the pen
and for sure AL QURAN is UMM UL KITHAB
The womb of all enslaved lateral characters with its all powerful writer AL RABB

from SWEETSWORDS 9 [ Scribe ]

awal
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poga
 
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Quote poga Replybullet Posted: 07 February 2008 at 11:07am

Yes indeed it is the original pen what proves every forged Dalil's authenticity according to the hand writing expert
The type setting the type of writing the type of ink used in the calligraphic artifact
Therefore MUHAMMAD Sallel la Hu Alahi Wa Sallim is the pen and ALLAH is the writer
And to prove manifest AL QURAN which KAFFIR will ever believe in the hidden creator
So seal of AL HADIS was left as the sonar ink for all deaf dumb and blind
Yes indeed AL QURAN is just the pages it is the AL HADIS what makes it the book with the MUHAMMADAN bind

from SWEETSWORDS 9 [ Scribe ]

awal
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