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Islam for non-Muslims
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rami
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Quote rami Replybullet Posted: 04 February 2008 at 8:54pm
Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem

I am not a Muslim

thank you for clarifying that, saves me time in assuming we agree on core beliefs like the Quran is from Allah etc.

But surely this refers only to his recitation of the Quran!

The Quran is only known through the prophet [sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam] it didnt comedown as a book whole, so no once you believe that he is a prophet and the Quran is from Allah then the Quran is very clear on who you should follow and take advice from and what authority the prophet had. The verses are numerous and very clear about this.

The entire Sura (53) is about the divine revelation of the Quran, isn't it?

053.003
Nor does he say (aught) of (his own) Desire.

This essentially is allahs assurance that he guides man through the prophets teachings [sunnah] and that this guidance has divine qualities similar to the Quran since essentially it is from the same source.

the very next verse is clear on this

053.004
It is no less than inspiration sent down to him:

i.e the Quran and its teachings [Sunnah: meanings, understanding, wisdom]

Here are three different translations of the same verse so you can better understand what allah is saying about him,

053.006
YUSUFALI: Endued with Wisdom: for he appeared (in stately form);
PICKTHAL: One vigorous; and he grew clear to view
SHAKIR: The Lord of Strength; so he attained completion.

053.005
He was taught by one Mighty in Power,

which goes back to the original point that not only was he given the words of the quran but made to understand its deep knowledge which he shared with us. That knowledge of the quran came from Allah, the prophet does not have to be Omniscient only the one who is teaching him and he certainly knows of all matters and considered them when teaching him, so unless you want to argue that the Quran itself is no longer relevant you can not argue the knowledge that Allah gave to his prophet OF the Quran is not relevant.

I would say yes, most of those things are indeed different.

I would say then you dont know anything about these matters, you may like to consider the maliki madhhab and there use of the actions of the people of madina as a source for legal rullings. Read Imam Maliks Muwattah it is a treatise on islamic law based on there actions, so no nothing has changed at all.

they also affect the older things that the Prophet spoke about.  I am not a Muslim and don't know in detail what the Prophet said, so it is difficult for me to give you a specific example, but I will try.


This tells me you are simply debating for the sake of debating since you clearly admit you know little of what he said then you can not have an informed opinion on anything we are discussing. simply because you "feel" a certain way this does not validate your views.

It is also pointless to now go and look for evidence to proove your point since you would essentially be manipulating information to fit into your perspective rather than neutrally and impartially investigating and coming to an unbiased conclusion.

Your limitation is that you know very little about how law in general is derived and Islamic law to be more specific.

I believe (please correct me if I'm wrong) that the Prophet encouraged large families.  That may have made sense fourteen centuries ago because infant mortality was extremely high,


You are wrongly assuming his intension behind the advice, basically you  are assuming the reasons based on your cultural upbringing and experiences which are only specific to you and don't apply to men who certainly lived 1400 years ago a fact which would make it impossible to assume the intentions of others in any way that is logical to us in our time. This fact is also why studying the arabic language as it was understood and spoken 1400 years ago is essential to understanding the Quran and mindset of the people of the time.

He encouraged large families because he loved Allah and loved to see an increase in the people who worshiped him, this was his clearly stated intention it had nothing to do with population growth.

the planet has almost reached its capacity and resources are becoming scarce.  If the Prophet were alive today, do you think he would still be encouraging large families?  Why?

Put aside the fact that what you mentioned wasn't about population growth, if he was alive today and based on things he has said regarding abortion then yes he would still encourage people to have children. Resources are not scarce its only that the western countries in a day consume what the rest of the world could live on for a year.

If people lived by the islamic ideals regarding consumption and the environment then yes we could certainly survive with even larger populations than we see today.

this example you gave does not change much regarding islamic teachings you seem to have an underlaying belief in you arguments that religions are no longer relevant, Islam did not suffer the same fate as the other religions and this is from a historical point of view.
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
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Quote layalee Replybullet Posted: 04 February 2008 at 9:40pm
Thank you brother (Rami) for providing your post.
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Ron Webb
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 05 February 2008 at 6:11am

Originally posted by rami

053.003
Nor does he say (aught) of (his own) Desire.

This essentially is allahs assurance that he guides man through the prophets teachings [sunnah] and that this guidance has divine qualities similar to the Quran since essentially it is from the same source.

the very next verse is clear on this

053.004
It is no less than inspiration sent down to him:

i.e the Quran and its teachings [Sunnah: meanings, understanding, wisdom]

If 53.4 refers to the Quran (Allah's teachings), and if (as I understand it, and I don't think you denied it) the entire Sura discusses the revelation of the Quran, why would you assume that 53.3 refers to the Prophet's teachings?

I understand that Mohammed was a great and wise man, that he was directly instructed by Allah Himself, and so on; but he is still just a man, and the Quran is still complete and perfect.  As you would know better than I, the Quran says over and over again that there is nothing omitted, that no one (not even the Prophet) can add to it or change it.  If the Prophet's teachings are different from the Quran, or omitted from it, then clearly the Quran itself tells us that we should disregard them; and if they are the same, then why do we need them at all?

The reason I care about this matter as a non-Muslim is that I can easily defend the Quran, but frankly I cannot defend the hadith.  I don't wish to offend so I won't say any more, but I think you know what I mean.

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rami
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Quote rami Replybullet Posted: 05 February 2008 at 8:04am
Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem

and if (as I understand it, and I don't think you denied it) the entire Sura discusses the revelation of the Quran, why would you assume that 53.3 refers to the Prophet's teachings?

The first half of the surah is not about the revelation of the Quran, actually its about the knowledge of the prophet and his superiority in character which goes hand in hand with his knowledge, knowledge that is other than the Quran.

053.010 So did (God) convey the inspiration to His Servant- (conveyed) what He (meant) to convey.

this is not talking about revelation itself [i.e the quran] but actual understanding of different kinds of knowledge that was being given to him. The Quran was revealed to him over a 23 year period while he was on earth. the Quran is not like the bible which is the equivalent of Hadith [i.e inspired guidance] but the literal Words of Allah can you see the difference?

53.011 The (Prophet's) (mind and) heart in no way falsified that which he saw. understand this verse with 53.003 Nor does he say (aught) of (his own) Desire. and you will see why his teachings had a similar Eternal Quality to the Quran.

053.017 (His) sight never swerved, nor did it go wrong!, again understand this verse with 053.003 Nor does he say (aught) of (his own) Desire.

053.018 For truly did he see, of the Signs of his Lord, the Greatest!

The signs of his lord in no way is referring to the Quran but an understanding of divine matters which in them selfs have an eternal timeless quality.

that he was directly instructed by Allah Himself, and so on; but he is still just a man, and the Quran is still complete and perfect.

He was a man but the advice he gave was not from himself but from allah "
Nor does he say (aught) of (his own) Desire." Allah clearly says this!!

It isnt something you can deny, You seem to think knowledge is from man, knowledge itself is eternal and from Allah if something was THE TRUTH 1400 years ago it remains the truth 1400 years latter the truth does not change otherwise it would not be Truth to begin with. You are oversimplifying this becouse once you actually read the ahadith and the tafsir and see the knowledge that came from it over the years you can not argue that it is no longer relavant.

Your arguments are nothing but theory, we have 1400 years of Islamic civilisation to prove that his teaching where relevant long after his time.

As you would know better than I, the Quran says over and over again that there is nothing omitted,

it doesn't say that anywhere in the Quran, you have misunderstood something i believe.

that no one (not even the Prophet) can add to it or change it.

I cant see how you can look at the Quran as a book in and of itself, each verse was revealed to answer real life situations the prophet or his companions found them selfs in so the life experiences of the prophet and the Quran are inseparable. As no one ever claimed it was added to i dont see the relevance of this point.

If the Prophet's teachings are different from the Quran

There not, so your argument falls apart there, he explained the Quran and what it meant and as his wife Aisha said he was a walking Quran.

then clearly the Quran itself tells us that we should disregard them

really where does it say that?

and if they are the same, then why do we need them at all?

who claimed they where word for word the same, do you know what it was he taught, what reasonable ground do you have for even makeing this asumption.

The reason I care about this matter as a non-Muslim is that I can easily defend the Quran, but frankly I cannot defend the hadith. 

Why is that, the Quran and ahadith came to us via the exact same sources neither of which are in doubt. I cant understand how a person can say the Quran is fine, but the teachings of the man it was revealed to are not. Since you cant prove what he said was not from allah and as allah himself attests to his knowledge in the Quran you have no basis for anything you are saying.

I don't wish to offend so I won't say any more, but I think you know what I mean.

Actually i dont, can you please research the material you wish to discuss at this point this is nothing but a debate with very ill informed arguments being presented.


Edited by rami
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
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layalee
 
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Quote layalee Replybullet Posted: 05 February 2008 at 10:09am

Ronn Webb-

Do you not understand why there is a need for hadiths? Do you not understand why Muslims should follow the Sunnah? Or have you come to terms in believing they are not needed because the Quran is perfect?

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Ron Webb
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 05 February 2008 at 4:45pm

Originally posted by rami

and if (as I understand it, and I don't think you denied it) the entire Sura discusses the revelation of the Quran, why would you assume that 53.3 refers to the Prophet's teachings?

The first half of the surah is not about the revelation of the Quran, actually its about the knowledge of the prophet and his superiority in character which goes hand in hand with his knowledge, knowledge that is other than the Quran.

Well, it seems pretty obvious to me that Sura 53 is about the Quran.  I have the Yusuf Ali translation, and his introductory remarks for this Sura begin: "The particular theme of this Sura is that Revelation is not an illusion...".  Unless there is some other revelation I don't know about, then that means the Quran.  But whatever.

053.010 So did (God) convey the inspiration to His Servant- (conveyed) what He (meant) to convey.

this is not talking about revelation itself [i.e the quran] but actual understanding of different kinds of knowledge that was being given to him. The Quran was revealed to him over a 23 year period while he was on earth. the Quran is not like the bible which is the equivalent of Hadith [i.e inspired guidance] but the literal Words of Allah can you see the difference?

Indeed I can see the difference, and that difference is why I believe that only the Quran would be completely trustworthy.  If the Bible is the equivalent of Hadith (which I agree), why would the Hadith have any more credibility than the Bible?

As you would know better than I, the Quran says over and over again that there is nothing omitted,

it doesn't say that anywhere in the Quran, you have misunderstood something i believe.

Sura 6:38 -- "There is not an animal (that lives) on the earth, nor a being that flies on its wings, but (forms part of) communities like you. Nothing have we omitted from the Book, and they (all) shall be gathered to their Lord in the end."

The reason I care about this matter as a non-Muslim is that I can easily defend the Quran, but frankly I cannot defend the hadith. 

Why is that, the Quran and ahadith came to us via the exact same sources neither of which are in doubt.
I cant understand how a person can say the Quran is fine, but the teachings of the man it was revealed to are not.

The source of the Quran is Allah.  The source of the hadith is Mohammed. And I can't understand how you can equate the words of a man -- any man, no matter how wise or who his teacher -- with the words of Allah.  But I suppose we will never understand each other.

I don't wish to offend so I won't say any more, but I think you know what I mean.

Actually i dont, can you please research the material you wish to discuss at this point this is nothing but a debate with very ill informed arguments being presented.

At this point I see no point in discussing the content of a book whose authenticity I still doubt.  It would only create animosity, which is not my purpose here.

As for why I cannot defend the hadith, you could go to any of a hundred anti-Islamic sites to find out about that.  I won't link to them here but I'm sure Google can find them for you.

As-Salamu Alaykum.

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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 05 February 2008 at 4:58pm

Originally posted by layalee

Do you not understand why there is a need for hadiths? Do you not understand why Muslims should follow the Sunnah? Or have you come to terms in believing they are not needed because the Quran is perfect?

Well, bearing in mind that I am not a Muslim, those questions are too hypothetical for me to answer directly; but if I were a Muslim, I probably would not believe that the hadith are needed.  More than that, I believe they are harmful because they keep Islam in the Dark Ages.  The Quran was meant to be timeless, while Mohammed spoke from the point of view of the 7th century.  Unlike rami, I believe that a whole lot has changed since then.

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Quote rami Replybullet Posted: 05 February 2008 at 9:08pm
Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem

Well, it seems pretty obvious to me that Sura 53 is about the Quran.  I have the Yusuf Ali translation, and his introductory remarks for this Sura begin: "The particular theme of this Sura is that Revelation is not an illusion...".  Unless there is some other revelation I don't know about, then that means the Quran.  But whatever.

You unequivocally state that the surah in its entirety is about revelation, you dont have to go further than the second half of this chapter to see that it talks about things other than revelation i.e Lat and Uzza the two main Idols of the arabs. Yusuf Ali besides not being an authority [scholar] on Tafsir [Quranic exegesis] did not mean the entire surah is literally about revelation he said it's "theme"  meaning you can tie back the main points of the surah to revelation but that is not the only thing this chapter discusses. Yusuf Ali is talking about the deep undertones not what you can read on the surface and as i stated the literal subject matter changes from what you perceive to be revelation to something else.

The first half of this chapter is talking about the night journey that the prophet [sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam] took [Isra wal Miraj in arabic] this journey showed the superiority in character of the prophet to other humans. You can not perfect yourself morally without having deep insight and knowledge into matters so when Allah said "he approached a distance of two bows length [a statement not taken literally] it not only denotes his closeness to Allah but the depth of his knowledge above other men including other prophets.

http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=53&tid=50850


the above site is the translated exegesis of Ibn kathir one of Islams foremost experts on the Quran, his particular exegesis concentrates on why each verse was revealed to mankind, here are some quotes regarding this chapter.

""(Your companion has neither gone astray nor has erred.) This contains the subject of the oath. This part of the Ayah is the witness that the Messenger of Allah is sane and a follower of Truth. He is neither led astray, such as in the case of the ignorant who does not proceed on any path with knowledge, nor is he one who erred, such as in the case of the knowledgeable, who knows the Truth, yet deviates from it intentionally to something else. Therefore, Allah exonerated His Messenger and his Message from being similar to the misguided ways of the Christians and the erroneous paths of the Jews, such as knowing the Truth and hiding it, while abiding by falsehood. Rather, he, may Allah's peace and blessings be on him, and his glorious Message that Allah has sent him with, are on the perfect straight path, following guidance and what is correct.""

(Nor does he speak of desire), asserting that nothing the Prophet utters is of his own desire or wish,

(It is only a revelation revealed.), means, he only conveys to the people what he was commanded to convey, in its entirety without additions or deletions. Imam Ahmad recorded that Abu Umamah said that he heard the Messenger of Allah say,

(Verily..... Rabi`ah and Mudar, will enter Paradise on account of the intercession of one man, who is not a Prophet.) A man asked, "O Allah's Messenger! Is not Rabi`ah a subtribe of Mudar.'' The Prophet said, (I said what I said.)

Imam Ahmad recorded that `Abdullah bin `Amr said, "I used to record everything I heard from the Messenger of Allah so it would be preserved. The Quraysh discouraged me from this, saying, `You record everything you hear from the Messenger of Allah , even though he is human and sometimes speaks when he is angry' I stopped recording the Hadiths for a while, but later mentioned what they said to the Messenger of Allah , who said,

(Write! By He in Whose Hand is my soul, every word that comes out of me is the Truth.)'' Abu Dawud also collected this Hadith........""Nor does he say (aught) of (his own) Desire.""

Indeed I can see the difference, and that difference is why I believe that only the Quran would be completely trustworthy.  If the Bible is the equivalent of Hadith (which I agree), why would the Hadith have any more credibility than the Bible?

I wasnt referring to authenticity, i was referring to how each was perceived by its followers, the Bible is not the Literal words of God it is understood to be inspired guidance. If you do want to discuss the authenticity of ahadith then here to you will come up against a brick wall.

Sura 6:38 -- "There is not an animal (that lives) on the earth, nor a being that flies on its wings, but (forms part of) communities like you. Nothing have we omitted from the Book, and they (all) shall be gathered to their Lord in the end."

here are three different translations of the same verse,

006.038
YUSUFALI: There is not an animal (that lives) on the earth, nor a being that flies on its wings, but (forms part of) communities like you. Nothing have we omitted from the Book, and they (all) shall be gathered to their Lord in the end.
PICKTHAL: There is not an animal in the earth, nor a flying creature flying on two wings, but they are peoples like unto you. We have neglected nothing in the Book (of Our decrees). Then unto their Lord they will be gathered.
SHAKIR: And there is no animal that walks upon the earth nor a bird that flies with its two wings but (they are) genera like yourselves; We have not neglected anything in the Book, then to their Lord shall they be gathered.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/006.qmt.html

The word neglect gives a less literal and unrealistic translation of the verse, no muslim has ever said the Quran literally speaks about every single matter specifically. You can interpret that verse to mean that in the deep understanding of the Quran and its verses you will find answers to your questions.

The source of the Quran is Allah.  The source of the hadith is Mohammed.

The source of the knowledge in the hadith is Allah, how good or accurate was the prophet at explaining the Quran and conveying its wisdom.....well the very chapter you quote unequivocally answers that.

053.002
YUSUFALI: Your Companion is neither astray nor being misled.
053.003
YUSUFALI: Nor does he say (aught) of (his own) Desire.
053.004
YUSUFALI: It is no less than inspiration sent down to him:
053.005
YUSUFALI: He was taught by one Mighty in Power,
053.006
YUSUFALI: Endued with Wisdom: for he appeared (in stately form);
PICKTHAL: One vigorous; and he grew clear to view
SHAKIR: The Lord of Strength; so he attained completion,
053.007
YUSUFALI: While he was in the highest part of the horizon:

053.008
YUSUFALI: Then he approached and came closer,

053.009
YUSUFALI: And was at a distance of but two bow-lengths or (even) nearer;
053.010
YUSUFALI: So did (Allah) convey the inspiration to His Servant- (conveyed) what He (meant) to convey.
053.011
YUSUFALI: The (Prophet's) (mind and) heart in no way falsified that which he saw.
053.012
YUSUFALI: Will ye then dispute with him concerning what he saw?.....
053.017
YUSUFALI: (His) sight never swerved, nor did it go wrong!
053.018
YUSUFALI: For truly did he see, of the Signs of his Lord, the Greatest!

And I can't understand how you can equate the words of a man -- any man, no matter how wise or who his teacher -- with the words of Allah.  But I suppose we will never understand each other.

He was a prophet not an ordinary man like you or me, and certainly not a prophet in the same sense as christians perceive prophets, we may use the same words but he was nothing like how the prophets are portrayed in the bible. I dont equate him with allah but knowledge itself which has only one source and that is Allah, Allah himself attests to the truthfulness and accurateness of his prophet.

You are holding onto preconceived notions and refusing to correct them.

As for why I cannot defend the hadith, you could go to any of a hundred anti-Islamic sites to find out about that.  I won't link to them here but I'm sure Google can find them for you.

i have seen these sites before they are very inaccurate, do you think it is reasonable to go to people with an agenda against islam and ask to learn about Islam.

If you dont mind visit this site and click on Hadith,

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/index.html

it corrects much of the misinformation that is out there, this is what Muslims believe and practice there is no point coming to a site and dictating to us what you think we believe.



Edited by rami
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
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