IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum: Tomas- Can I go back to islam?

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ummziba
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Posted: 18 June 2005 at 9:05am

Assalamu alaikum hkrespect,

Please read this entire thread to find the correct answers. Your post is full of fallacies about Islam. All non-Muslims are not kafirs. A Muslim woman does not become a kafir if she marries a non-Muslim man (she merely commits a sin).

You say "let's stick to the way of the Prophet (pbuh) and his companions, not our own whims and desires".

You would do well to follow your own advice!

Peace, ummziba.

Sticks and stones may break my bones, but your words...they break my soul ~

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Arabian

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Posted: 19 June 2005 at 6:35pm

Tomas,

Even the bible contradicts itself regarding the trinity:

Matthew 19:17: "Why callest thou me good? There is none good but One, that is God." The one good is God, not Jesus.

Matthew 21:9-11: "And the multitudes that went before, and that followed, cried, saying, Hosana to the son of David:Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord; Hosana in the highest. And when he was come into Jerusalem, all the city was moved, saying, Who is this? And the multitude said, This is Jesus the prophet of Nazereth of Galilee." Jesus, Prophet of Nazereth.

Matthew 21:46: "But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet."

Matthew 23:8-9: But be not ye called Rabbi: For One is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are bretheren. And call no man your father upon the earth: for One is your Father, which is in Heaven." Here we are told that we are all the children of God, so to say that Jesus is God's only son would be a contradiction.

Peace,
Arabian

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AhmadJoyia

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Posted: 20 June 2005 at 12:21pm

Originally posted by The One

Salam to Ahmad, Ali and all!

..............
Brother Ahmad, your answer was good regarding Nikah, but not only me but no Hindu is bound by his or her Varna and the laws of Manu.

What do you mean by this? Then who is hindu? and what is the significance of these books in your life?

And forget about "a little flavour", Karma considers everything one thinks or does, whether it is a simple act or a mere useless thought. There is no escape from it.

But, I thought, as Bharatiya implied, that Karma is just like a blind law of ulitimate justice in Hinduism. That is to say that it only reflects through our actions (good or bad) and not our intentions. So, now I see a wider definition of it from your side, but can you provide me a reference from the Vedas where this law is defined etc.

I didn't know that Hindus are called Mushriks. Thank you for that also. But you will be right only when Allah is a diety or a demi-god. Everyone knows that God is only One and so no question of "God beside God". You will find temples only for dieties and not God.

I think, this is not a logical conclusion. A god beside God implies a diety worthy of human worship beside God. So, as Islam teaches that thereis no diety (god) worthy of human worship except God. Hence the definition of monotheistic religion. Though, I do realize the concept of dieties (some few to several hundred of them) in hinduism, just used as an intermediaries for the fulfillments of their worldly desires, however, in Islam, all our prayers and worships are for that one and only one God alone. Hence liberation from all supersitions attached with the slavery of demigods or dieties. Rest Allah knows the best.

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Ali Zaki

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Posted: 21 June 2005 at 8:00am

Peace (Salam) to All

"The One" wrote,

"You will find temples only for dieties and not God."

When you say temple, you mean a place of worship? Right?

If the answer is 'YES', then the people in that temple are engaged in the worship of something other than Allah (s.w.a.). This is exactly what a Mushrik is (someone who worships other than God).

The people who worshiped idols at the time of the prophet (a.s.) also had a concept of "The God", however, most did not worship him. If you observed their behavior (and that's how you see someones true intention, now through their words), you would see that they would pick carry a rock with them, and pray to it. They knew it was a stone, however, they worshiped it. This is 'Shirk', or polytheism and it is a strong deviant tendency in humans that has always existed.

Salam

"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

Imam Ali (a.s.)

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Perception

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Posted: 21 June 2005 at 1:54pm

Originally posted by SixNineteen

From what I was
taught, the trinity works in cooperation with each other and are
acutally one "being" in 3 different states.. like H2O: Liquid, Gas and
Solid.

Peace be with you!

Please refer to the following answer in relation to your understanding of the Trinity from Dr Zakir Naik (muslim scholar):

"Now an example was given using human logic, asking a question, that if water can be present in three states - as Solid, Liquid and Gas - as Ice, Water and Vapour - When water can be in 3 states, why can’t God be? Similarly, the Christian missionaries - they pose the question… ‘Even God Almighty can be present in three forms - the father, son, and holy ghost. But if you analyze, I do agree matter can be in three states - Solid, Liquid and Gas. But you should realize that if water is present in 3 states… solid, liquid, gas - as ice, water, and vapour, in all the three states - the constituents, the component of water is the same... H2O. Even if its ice, the constituent and component is H2O - Even when it is water it is H2O - Even when it is vapour it is H2O - Even when it is ice… even when it is gas or liquid, it is H2O - That’s very important. Now lets analyze the example they gave of ‘trinity’ - Father, son and holy ghost. In 3 forms if you say… for the sake of argument, I agree - but are the constituents of all these three things, - father, son, that is Jesus Christ (peace be upon him) and holy ghost, the same? We know very well that human beings have got flesh and bones - A spirit and God Almighty have got no flesh and bones. Human beings require to eat -God Almighty does not require to eat. And the same message Jesus Christ (peace be upon him) gave - Its mentioned in the Gospel of Luke Ch. No.24, V.No.39 to 43. That, ‘Behold my hands and feet - Its I myself. Handle me and see - that a spirit has got no flesh and bones as you see me have. And he gave his hands and feet - And they were overjoyed. To prove what? that he was not a spirit - he was not God Almighty. And the verse continues ‘Do you have meat to eat’ and the next verse says that he ate broiled fish and honey comb. To prove what? - that he was God? To prove that he was not God! Jesus Christ (peace be upon him) said, ‘A spirit has no flesh and bones’, as I have proving that he was not a spirit - he was not Almighty God."

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Arabian

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Posted: 21 June 2005 at 2:15pm

Perception,

The argument of H2O is not valid. Water can exist in three states; solid, liquid, and gas; but can it exist in all three states at one time? The answer is no. The idea of three Gods in one being, or 1 + 1 + 1 = 1, or Solid + Liquid + Gas = SolidLiquidGas is false.

Peace,
Arabian

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Perception

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Posted: 21 June 2005 at 3:52pm

Originally posted by Arabian

Perception,

The argument of H2O is not valid. Water can exist in three
states; solid, liquid, and gas; but can it exist in all three states at
one time? The answer is no. The idea of three Gods in one
being, or 1 + 1 + 1 = 1, or Solid + Liquid + Gas = SolidLiquidGas is
false.

Peace,
Arabian

Salam,

That's exactly what I said in my post! It appears you did not read it properly.

I was clarifying for the brother the logical inconsistency with this argument that some Christians use to explain trinity.

Edited by Perception

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The One

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Joined: 10 June 2005
Location: India
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Posts: 62

Posted: 22 June 2005 at 10:47am

Oops!

Sorry, I thought this discussion ended so did not thought of looking at it.

Ali bhai, the anology you hold is completely wrong. You said, "... then the people in that temple are engaged in the worship of something other than Allah".

How do you know that Hindus pray to a stone?

Just look at the Black Stone at the Ka'ba. I had been told that people do not worship that stone. If we forget about the stone, what about the Ka'ba. You go seven rounds around it. Does that mean you are worshipping the Ka'ba?

Can I know what you mean by worship? And what is the purpose of worship?

And remember, Hindus do not pray to a stone, they contemplate on the attribute which that image implies. I find no difference between a name or image.

And in Hinduism, idol worship is never preached, it is only practiced. And not all practice it.

Aparichithudu.

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Topic: Tomas- Can I go back to islam?
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Author	Message
ummziba Female Islam Senior Member Joined: 16 March 2005 Location: Canada Online Status: Offline Posts: 1158	Posted: 18 June 2005 at 9:05am
	Assalamu alaikum hkrespect, Please read this entire thread to find the correct answers. Your post is full of fallacies about Islam. All non-Muslims are not kafirs. A Muslim woman does not become a kafir if she marries a non-Muslim man (she merely commits a sin). You say "let's stick to the way of the Prophet (pbuh) and his companions, not our own whims and desires". You would do well to follow your own advice! Peace, ummziba.
	Sticks and stones may break my bones, but your words...they break my soul ~
	IP Logged

Arabian Senior Member Joined: 11 June 2005 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 195	Posted: 19 June 2005 at 6:35pm
	Tomas, Even the bible contradicts itself regarding the trinity: Matthew 19:17: "Why callest thou me good? There is none good but One, that is God." The one good is God, not Jesus. Matthew 21:9-11: "And the multitudes that went before, and that followed, cried, saying, Hosana to the son of David:Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord; Hosana in the highest. And when he was come into Jerusalem, all the city was moved, saying, Who is this? And the multitude said, This is Jesus the prophet of Nazereth of Galilee." Jesus, Prophet of Nazereth. Matthew 21:46: "But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet." Matthew 23:8-9: But be not ye called Rabbi: For One is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are bretheren. And call no man your father upon the earth: for One is your Father, which is in Heaven." Here we are told that we are all the children of God, so to say that Jesus is God's only son would be a contradiction. Peace, Arabian
	IP Logged

AhmadJoyia Senior Member Joined: 20 March 2005 Location: Pakistan Online Status: Offline Posts: 1161	Posted: 20 June 2005 at 12:21pm
	*Originally posted by The One* Salam to Ahmad, Ali and all! .............. Brother Ahmad, your answer was good regarding Nikah, but not only me but no Hindu is bound by his or her Varna and the laws of Manu. What do you mean by this? Then who is hindu? and what is the significance of these books in your life? And forget about "a little flavour", Karma considers everything one thinks or does, whether it is a simple act or a mere useless thought. There is no escape from it. But, I thought, as Bharatiya implied, that Karma is just like a blind law of ulitimate justice in Hinduism. That is to say that it only reflects through our actions (good or bad) and not our intentions. So, now I see a wider definition of it from your side, but can you provide me a reference from the Vedas where this law is defined etc. I didn't know that Hindus are called Mushriks. Thank you for that also. But you will be right only when Allah is a diety or a demi-god. Everyone knows that God is only One and so no question of "God beside God". You will find temples only for dieties and not God. I think, this is not a logical conclusion. A god beside God implies a diety worthy of human worship beside God. So, as Islam teaches that thereis no diety (god) worthy of human worship except God. Hence the definition of monotheistic religion. Though, I do realize the concept of dieties (some few to several hundred of them) in hinduism, just used as an intermediaries for the fulfillments of their worldly desires, however, in Islam, all our prayers and worships are for that one and only one God alone. Hence liberation from all supersitions attached with the slavery of demigods or dieties. Rest Allah knows the best.
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Ali Zaki Senior Member Joined: 10 May 2005 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 217	Posted: 21 June 2005 at 8:00am
	Peace (Salam) to All "The One" wrote, "You will find temples only for dieties and not God." When you say temple, you mean a place of worship? Right? If the answer is 'YES', then the people in that temple are engaged in the worship of something other than Allah (s.w.a.). This is exactly what a Mushrik is (someone who worships other than God). The people who worshiped idols at the time of the prophet (a.s.) also had a concept of "The God", however, most did not worship him. If you observed their behavior (and that's how you see someones true intention, now through their words), you would see that they would pick carry a rock with them, and pray to it. They knew it was a stone, however, they worshiped it. This is 'Shirk', or polytheism and it is a strong deviant tendency in humans that has always existed. Salam
	"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad." Imam Ali (a.s.)
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Perception Newbie Joined: 21 June 2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 7	Posted: 21 June 2005 at 1:54pm
	*Originally posted by SixNineteen* From what I was taught, the trinity works in cooperation with each other and are acutally one "being" in 3 different states.. like H2O: Liquid, Gas and Solid. Peace be with you! Please refer to the following answer in relation to your understanding of the Trinity from Dr Zakir Naik (muslim scholar): "Now an example was given using human logic, asking a question, that if water can be present in three states - as Solid, Liquid and Gas - as Ice, Water and Vapour - When water can be in 3 states, why can’t God be? Similarly, the Christian missionaries - they pose the question… ‘Even God Almighty can be present in three forms - the father, son, and holy ghost. But if you analyze, I do agree matter can be in three states - Solid, Liquid and Gas. But you should realize that if water is present in 3 states… solid, liquid, gas - as ice, water, and vapour, in all the three states - the constituents, the component of water is the same... H2O. Even if its ice, the constituent and component is H2O - Even when it is water it is H2O - Even when it is vapour it is H2O - Even when it is ice… even when it is gas or liquid, it is H2O - That’s very important. Now lets analyze the example they gave of ‘trinity’ - Father, son and holy ghost. In 3 forms if you say… for the sake of argument, I agree - but are the constituents of all these three things, - father, son, that is Jesus Christ (peace be upon him) and holy ghost, the same? We know very well that human beings have got flesh and bones - A spirit and God Almighty have got no flesh and bones. Human beings require to eat -God Almighty does not require to eat. And the same message Jesus Christ (peace be upon him) gave - Its mentioned in the Gospel of Luke Ch. No.24, V.No.39 to 43. That, ‘Behold my hands and feet - Its I myself. Handle me and see - that a spirit has got no flesh and bones as you see me have. And he gave his hands and feet - And they were overjoyed. To prove what? that he was not a spirit - he was not God Almighty. And the verse continues ‘Do you have meat to eat’ and the next verse says that he ate broiled fish and honey comb. To prove what? - that he was God? To prove that he was not God! Jesus Christ (peace be upon him) said, ‘A spirit has no flesh and bones’, as I have proving that he was not a spirit - he was not Almighty God."
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Arabian Senior Member Joined: 11 June 2005 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 195	Posted: 21 June 2005 at 2:15pm
	Perception, The argument of H2O is not valid. Water can exist in three states; solid, liquid, and gas; but can it exist in all three states at one time? The answer is no. The idea of three Gods in one being, or 1 + 1 + 1 = 1, or Solid + Liquid + Gas = SolidLiquidGas is false. Peace, Arabian
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Perception Newbie Joined: 21 June 2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 7	Posted: 21 June 2005 at 3:52pm
	*Originally posted by Arabian* Perception, The argument of H2O is not valid. Water can exist in three states; solid, liquid, and gas; but can it exist in all three states at one time? The answer is no. The idea of three Gods in one being, or 1 + 1 + 1 = 1, or Solid + Liquid + Gas = SolidLiquidGas is false. Peace, Arabian Salam, That's exactly what I said in my post! It appears you did not read it properly. I was clarifying for the brother the logical inconsistency with this argument that some Christians use to explain trinity. Edited by Perception
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The One Groupie Joined: 10 June 2005 Location: India Online Status: Offline Posts: 62	Posted: 22 June 2005 at 10:47am
	Oops! Sorry, I thought this discussion ended so did not thought of looking at it. Ali bhai, the anology you hold is completely wrong. You said, "... then the people in that temple are engaged in the worship of something other than Allah". How do you know that Hindus pray to a stone? Just look at the Black Stone at the Ka'ba. I had been told that people do not worship that stone. If we forget about the stone, what about the Ka'ba. You go seven rounds around it. Does that mean you are worshipping the Ka'ba? Can I know what you mean by worship? And what is the purpose of worship? And remember, Hindus do not pray to a stone, they contemplate on the attribute which that image implies. I find no difference between a name or image. And in Hinduism, idol worship is never preached, it is only practiced. And not all practice it. Aparichithudu.
	IP Logged